OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
113281 | garrison@g... | 2003‑01‑16 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Bug bear says: > a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use. > http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html > Great idea, I have used a toothpick and magnet on my files and tried to maintain horizontal. I have notched the toothpick to create an angle but you have showed me a much better way. Thanks alot. Scott Garrisopn Duluth GA |
|||
113283 | "Joseph Baron" <jgbaron@u...> | 2003‑01‑16 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
BugBear says: "Prototypes that work well tend to have surprisingly long lives" Hereby nominated for quote of the week. Cool gadget, too. Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Raleigh, NC |
|||
113280 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑16 | saw sharpening made a little easier |
Summary: In the last coupla days I've made a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use. http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html Long Version: I've been trying to sharpen my own saws for a while now. I rapidly got to the point where I could sharpen saws better than my local hardware store (which says more about them than me :-( ) and have been pretty successful on large rips, dovetails, and large crosscuts. But I've been miserably unsuccessful on small cross cuts with teeth smaller than 8 TPI (typically backsaws) In his wonderful (it's my primary source) write up on saw filing: ( http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html on his site http://www.vintagesaws.com ) Pete Taran says: "With even a small change in the way you move your wrist, you can increase or decrease the angle by as much as 10 degrees. In saw filing, this is a huge and unacceptable variation." It is indeed very difficult to eyeball the angle of a small 3 sided file to fine tolerances (i.e. a coupla' degrees) Pete suggests making a "Rake Alignment Jig" which is a simple block, crammed over the end of the file. When I tried this, I found 3 problems. (1) I lost an inch off the end of my 4" file, where the block fitted (2) When filing with a fleam angle, the block fouls the filing stroke even more so than in (1) (3) It's cumbersome at best. Robert Wearing ("a gadget for every task") suggests making a "needle indicator" that slips over the ferrule of the file handle, but his design involved more metal work than I wanted to do, and called for materials I didn't have to hand. So I cobbled together a wooden version, where the only metal was a #10x1" round headed screw. http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html It's just a scrap of mahogany, drilled (with a brace, natch) to fit over my 1/2" (bit of dowel) handle, kerfed under the hole, and with a screw to tighten it around the handle. The angle is indicated and magnified by the bamboo kebab skewer. I used my trusty Nobex mitre saw to make a gauge block with 12 degree faces at each end from a piece of lath. To set the gadget, I just reference one of the faces of the file on the gauge block, turn the gadget on the axis of the handle until the indicator is vertical, and tighten. To maintain the rake angle is now the same task as maintaining the indicator to vertical. I used this gadget to perform a "top and refile" pass over my practice saw. The results were an astonishing improvement in teeth evenness. Now I just have to recut/refile all my fine toothed crosscut saws... I'll probably make a tidier version of the gadget too, although prototypes that work well tend to have surprisingly long lives :-) BugBear (with a lot of filing and better saws in his future) |
|||
113300 | "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> | 2003‑01‑16 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
>Summary: >In the last coupla days I've made >a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use. >http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html > > > BugBear (with a lot of filing and better saws in his future) Ok, I am going to have to try that! In the last four months I have sharpened seven saws with more than 10tpi. Like to see the difference that thing'll make!! Thanks for the tip. Michael McCarthy Blacksmith The Farmer's Museum _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail |
|||
113309 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
I use the 2.75 binocular magnifier, and I like it a lot. I also use it while carving fine stuff. I bought the 1.75 first, but it did not actually magnify enough for me on fine detail. I also have one of the magnifying lamps but I find it to be very limited in actual use. It limits you to the space under the lamp. With the binocular magnifier you can use it anywhere. On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:33 AM, Scott Quesnelle wrote: >> >> When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very >> good light, and possibly magnification. >> >> BugBear > BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other > galoots use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set > of spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of > these binocular magnifiers like these. > > http://www.leevalley.com/wood/ > page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&category=1,43456,43351 > > Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by > electronics folks. > > http://www.leevalley.com/wood/ > page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&category=1,41637 > > I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw > sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when > sharpening them. > > Scott Quesnelle > Guelph, Ontario > Where it was -17C (0F) this morning. > Who might be spending tommorow at Lee Valley learning sharpening. >> >> >> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive >> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >> http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools >> > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools > > Jim Thompson, the old Millrat, in Riverside, California |
|||
113313 | "Ralph Brendler" <ralph@b...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Scott Quesnelle asks: > BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other galoots use as their magnification tool? For my clockmaking (which has a *lot* of need for closeups), I bought a loupe that clips onto my safety glasses. The one I use has two lenses that can swing down, allowing me to get a 3x view with about a 4" focal length or a 10x view with about a 1" focal length. Here's a catalog page that shows what I am talking about: http://www.startinternational.com/Product_Plug_Ins/Opticalpdf/05c_BL814117.p df I got mine from Timesavers (a horology supply catalog) for about $10. It's an Asian made knockoff, but works fine for what I need. I have since found that this loupe is useful in a lot of other situations, including sharpening fine saws and reading weak plane imprints. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette |
|||
113311 | esther.heller@k... | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Scott's looking for magnification: The needleworkers have the same problem, here are some samples at widely varying price points: http://www.nordicneedle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Cod- e=NN&Product_Code=6841 http://www.nordicneedle.com/Merchant2/merchant.m- v?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NN&Product_Code=6858 http://www.herrschners.com/product.asp?sku=WW040199 http://www.herrschners.com/product.asp?sku=WW842302 http://www.discountneedlework.com/product_pages/lightmag.asp Esther in very cold and snowy upstate NY USA |
|||
113307 | Scott Quesnelle <scottq@c...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
> > When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very good > light, and possibly magnification. > > BugBear BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other galoots use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set of spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of these binocular magnifiers like these. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&cate- gory=1,43456,43351 Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by electronics folks. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&cate- gory=1,41637 I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when sharpening them. Scott Quesnelle Guelph, Ontario Where it was -17C (0F) this morning. Who might be spending tommorow at Lee Valley learning sharpening. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools > |
|||
113302 | "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard that no set is required. Does this jibe with what you have heard as well? If indeed they do benefit from a set, and I see no reason they should not, how would you set them?? Michael McCarthy Blacksmith The Farmer's Museum _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail |
|||
113304 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Michael McCarthy wrote: > > > > > A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard > that no set is required. Does this jibe with what you have heard as > well? If indeed they do benefit from a set, and I see no reason they > should not, how would you set them?? In the sort of timbers (and cuts) were such small teeth would be used, you're not going to need much set. In the particular case of dovetail saws, where cuts are shallow, I rely on the filing burr from sharpening to provide enough set. I suspect I could even stone this off, and still cut DT's OK - a saw has very limited scope for binding in a 1/2" deep cut in 1/4" stock! To set small teeth requires an appropriate tool. I'm sure people who own the famous Stanley #42X will comment on its suitablity, but I only have (ready and cheap) access to the Eclipse #77 saw set. In order to suitable set small teeth, I have modified one of my #77's (did I mention "cheap") to have a narrower plunger, and shallower anvil disc. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=113063#message (search down for Eclipse) When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very good light, and possibly magnification. BugBear |
|||
113318 | Eddie Sirotich <sirotic@A...Tools.com> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Michael McCarthy wrote: > A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard > that no set is required. Does this jibe with what you have heard Having no set will work for shallow cuts, but is not a very wise thing to do. The amount of set depends on the task for which the saw is intended. Here is how I set my backsaws: - Dovetail saw: 0.003" set - lets you cut 2" deep cuts in 1" thick wood - Small tenon saw (12"): 0.004" set - 2 1/2" deep cut in 1 1/2" thick wood - Large tenon saw (14"): 0.005" set - 4" deep cut in 2" thick wood These cuts will be fast and without binding. Having no set would not allow these saws to cut half of the above sizes. The blade would be hot and the cutting would be a frustrating experience. Apply appropriate amount of set and saw will just float through the wood. Eddie Adria Toolworks Inc. - High Quality Dovetail and Tenon saws http://www.AdriaTools.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
|||
113328 | "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> | 2003‑01‑17 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
I have considered both a set of spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of these binocular magnifiers like these. > >http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp? Scott, I do a fair amount of carving and small type work and have found that the optivisor is the only brand that doesn't give me headaches. I like it very much, but find a bench mounted glass to invaluable as focal length is critical and unyielding on the visors. Michael McCarthy Blacksmith The Farmer's Museum _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail |
|||
113355 | "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> | 2003‑01‑18 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
: -----Original Message----- : From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...] : Sent: 17 January 2003 14:42 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier : : A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard : that no set is required. The saw needs some steerage way in the kerf. Otherwise once launched, the saw will be obliged to follow the initial direction. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Jeff@m... http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm |
|||
113366 | "Charles Driggs" <cdinde@m...> | 2003‑01‑19 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Scott asked, > BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other galoots use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set of spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of these binocular magnifiers like these. > > http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&categ ory=1,43456,43351 > > Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by electronics folks. > > http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&categ ory=1,41637 > > I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when sharpening them. Seconds to Jim & Esther .... I use a set of binocular magnifiers in the shop I inherited from my late FIL .... have both 5x and 2x lenses for those, but I essentially just use the 5x (now that you bring it up, I'm not sure where I put the little envelope with the 2x lenses .... hmmm). Also have a 3x loupe, which can be useful in some instances. Gotta have a suitable source of light to make these magnifiers effective too. Overhead spotlight works for me. Several years ago I bought a clone of the Dazor lamp, with rolling base, for SWMBO and her needlework (not cheap even as a clone!!). I don't think that style of lamp mounted on a rolling base would have much use in the shop unless you were working on small stuff in a small area and tended to sit on a stool or otherwise be stationary .... I guess that would be Ralph at miniature clockmaking. It's 'portable', but would be a PITA to have to adjust frequently as your attention moves around a decent sized workbench. If I mounted it upside-down from the floor joists above my workbench, as my architect's lamp is mounted, then it would be less of a burden to adjust or move about and all I'd need to do would be to make sure the lens and lamp cover stayed clean of fine sawdust. But, I don't want to lose my fingers by trying to abscond with her lamp, and the binocular magnifiers and loupe do well enough that I never thought of doing this before. Charlie Driggs Newark DE |
|||
113404 | Roger Nixon <oreoblues@y...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
--- paul womack |
|||
113399 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Jeff Gorman wrote: > > : -----Original Message----- > : From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...] > : Sent: 17 January 2003 14:42 > : To: oldtools > : Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier > : > : A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard > : that no set is required. > > The saw needs some steerage way in the kerf. Otherwise once launched, > the saw will be obliged to follow the initial direction. I though many people considered this a desirable FEATURE, at least in dovetail saws. In hardwoods I find the filing burr provides adequate kerf clearance. BugBear |
|||
113401 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Having sharpened a few saws recently, I thought I'd publish some of my experiences. In places these contradict Pete Taran's advice. http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html I think this is because Pete's too darn good at sharpening saws, and has assimiliated some skills so deeply that he's forgotten ever having to be concious of them, and thus doesn't mention them. I therefore subtitle these observations "Hints on saw sharpening from a beginner, for a beginner" At the earliest stage (topping and jointing) you might also want to check (with a straight edge) the overall shape of the edge, and adjust it to either be straight or breasted, depending on the purpose of the saw. On one of my saws I forgot to do thi check, and ended up with a well sharpended saw with a cosmetically irritating bump in the edge; removing this at an early stage would have been trivial, but it would now involve resharpening the saw. Lesson learnt :-( I found that judging "removing half the flat" on each of the 2 passes very difficult. I have settled on an iterative process, removing "some of the flat" on each pass. I simply repeat this until there is no flat (AKA "shiner") left. From memory, I'm doing about 8 passes at the moment. No doubt as my skill, judgement and confidence increase this will reduce. Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be tricky. A particular problem is that as the tiny last vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny filing burr *APPEARS*. Depending on your lighting and eyesight, this burr can reflect light a little like a flat, so you keep on filing... (BAD). If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts of you saw will be better held than others. As Pete comments, if your saw is not held well, it will vibrate, and your filing will be less effetive. The corrollary of this is that if your saw is not held uniformly, a single file stroke will remove different amounts of metal depending on where is the vice you are working. This caught me out a couple of times. I have settled on a procedure of applying the set to the saw just before the final 2 passes (of my multi-pass approach). I noticed that it was quite hard to see the flats during these final passes. On a coupla' saws I just ascribed this to the fact that the flats were getting small, but I then realised the problem was the set - when the set has been applied the original flats are no longer co-planar, which make seeing them difficult. My solution was to perform an extremely gentle topping pass, just so the flat on the opposite facing teeth once again reflect light from the same angle, and are thus simultanesouly visible, making judgement much easier. BugBear (who has finished saw sharpening for the moment) |
|||
113409 | Brent Beach <brent_beach@t...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Seems to me that 8 passes is a few more than necessary. A couple of additional tips might reduce the number of passes. First though, saws come in all conditions, from pretty good teeth to weirdly shaped teeth. A saw that is in really bad shape may take 8 passes. paul womack wrote: > At the earliest stage (topping and jointing) you might also want to > check (with a straight edge) the overall shape of the edge, and adjust > it to either A quick look down the teeth from either end after jointing will reveal problems. > I found that judging "removing half the flat" on each of the 2 passes > very difficult. The goal is to have equal sized teeth - equal sized gullets. If you are starting with a regularly toothed saw, removing half the flat works. I check the gullets on either side of the current gullet on the first pass. If this gullet is smaller, I remove more than half the flats. If the gullet on the left is smaller, I work the right tooth more than the left tooth. If this is the largest of the three gullets, I remove as little as possible while still reaching the tip of both teeth. Coming back, I normally remove the rest of the flats unless I see a gullet size problem that I missed the first direction that requires that I leave some flat to allow enlarging a neighbouring gullet. > Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be tricky. A particular > problem is that as the tiny last vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny > filing burr *APPEARS*. This happens on the tooth pointing away from you as you file - a wire edge appears that reflects the light. I brush the back of that tooth to remove this wire edge. Of course, this wire edge can be sharp. > If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts of you saw will be > better held than others. Masking tape, a couple of layers, improves the grip on the saw and reduces the vibration slightly. > I have settled on a procedure of applying the set to the saw just > before the final 2 passes (of my multi-pass approach). Most authorities recommend setting before filing (Pete does it after). I joint, then set, then file. I set fairly hard (described as "crushing the grain of the steel, so there can be no recoil" in Charles L. Johnson's saw manual). It seems wrong to do this after filing. > the problem was the set - when the set has been applied the original > flats are no longer co-planar, which make seeing them difficult. A really bad saw might benefit from two complete filings (joint, set, file) rather than a larger number of filing passes. For a pretty good saw (resharpening) this should not be a problem since almost all of the teeth should be almost correctly set. One small additional point on filing -- the direction of work. Charles Johnson is very specific: file so the feather edge is in the direction of set on the front of the tooth. The Disston Lumberman's manual is also quite specific - both sides toe to heel with the tip of the file pointing toward the heel, arguing that this avoids the feather edge on the crucial front of the tooth. Has anyone noticed a specific benefit of either strategy? Brent |
|||
113405 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Roger Nixon wrote: > > I'm using a book by "Dynamite" Payson (I'll have to post the title and > author's actual name later when I have it in front of me) Typing the name "payson" into the wondrous Porch archive's search function gives us: "Keeping The Cutting Edge: Setting and Sharpening Hand and Power Saws", by Harold H. Payson. BugBear (reading up some other saw sharpneing stuff in the archive) |
|||
113413 | "Alan N. Graham" <ang1235@s...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
As I was reading through the numerous postings on saw sharpening, a = weird thought crossed my mind.=20 There has been some discussion on whether the proper sequence should be joint, set, sharpen or joint, sharpen, set.=20 This started me thinking about why we joint first. Setting a saw via = normal mechanical means is approximate at best. Although we try for the same = set on every (alternate) tooth, there are bound to be small differences in the = set of each tooth. (Or in my case, sometimes not so small differences.)If = all the teeth had been jointed to the same level, this varied set would = result in a slightly uneven edge to the saw. Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or sharpening. Now = the jointing assures that the entire edge of the saw is level (assuming you = are not dealing with a breasted saw).=20 Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from the end = (see horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a = flat bottom tooth. /\\ __ \\ \\ \\ \\ \\ \\ \\ \\ Joint then set Set then joint I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other characteristics of the tooth. Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me.=20 Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture? Alan N. Graham =20 |
|||
113420 | "Arthur Bailey" <curiousart@e...> | 2003‑01‑20 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Bugbear says: > If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts > of you saw will be better held than others. > As Pete comments, if your saw is not held well, it > will vibrate, and your filing will be less effetive. As usual, I had bought the first saw vice that flung itself in my path. I got it home to discover that the jaws not only were somewhat misaligned, but had a nice gap in the middle ( I swear these deformities take place on the car ride home). I took an old bike inner tube and made a pair of leggings for my vice. Stuck them on with some spray adhesive. The rubber fills up the gap nicely, and also serves to dampen the filing noise. Art Bailey Somerville, Ma |
|||
113422 | "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
: -----Original Message----- : From: Alan N. Graham [mailto:ang1235@s...] : Sent: 20 January 2003 23:05 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier : : Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is : always the first : step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me. The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the guides by which we work. If it helps, there's a run-down on tenon saw sharpening on my web site. Please look under 'Sharpening Notes'. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Jeff@m... http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm |
|||
113423 | "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
: -----Original Message----- : From: Roger Nixon [mailto:oreoblues@y...] : Sent: 20 January 2003 14:56 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier : --- paul womack |
|||
113426 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Alan N. Graham wrote: > As I was reading through the numerous postings on saw sharpening, a weird > thought crossed my mind. > > There has been some discussion on whether the proper sequence should be > joint, set, sharpen or joint, sharpen, set. > > This started me thinking about why we joint first. Setting a saw via normal > mechanical means is approximate at best. Most of the pliers sets have gauges for position and amount of set. On the "disc anvil" type these are linked. The set is referenced to the mean top of the teeth. That all sounds (in theory) fairly accurate to me, and appears (IME) to be so in practice. > Although we try for the same set on > every (alternate) tooth, there are bound to be small differences in the set > of each tooth. (Or in my case, sometimes not so small differences.)If all > the teeth had been jointed to the same level, this varied set would result > in a slightly uneven edge to the saw. True, but only if your assumption of uneven set is true. > > Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or sharpening. Now the > jointing assures that the entire edge of the saw is level (assuming you are > not dealing with a breasted saw). But the commonest sequence is: joint, shape, set, file(sharpen). The shape operation make the teeth (as far as possible) uniform, yes uniform set (which I assert is the case, more or less) results in a second, different, uniform condition. > Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly > from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from the end (see > horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a flat > bottom tooth. > > /\\ __ > \\ \\ \\ \\ > \\ \\ \\ \\ > > Joint then set Set then joint > > I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other > characteristics of the tooth. You're ignoring the fact that filing will remove these effects. The only time jointing could effect the final shape of the teeth is if it's done last. In fact, you've pointed out a reason that Pete Tarans approach of setting teeth as the final operation has a interesting consequence on a rip saw; the edge of the tooth near the centre line of the saw will be slightly higher than the outside, so the saw will cut a slightly 'V' shaped groove, instead of the flat bottomed dado normally pictured. > > Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first > step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me. Jeff answered this. > > Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture? I've tried my best ;-) BugBear |
|||
113414 | "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Alan N. Graham [mailto:ang1235@s...] > > Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or > sharpening. > Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly > from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from > the end (see > horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a flat > bottom tooth. > > /\\ __ > \\ \\ \\ \\ > \\ \\ \\ \\ > > Joint then set Set then joint > > I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other > characteristics of the tooth. > > Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first > step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me. > > Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture? > Maybe setting first then jointing removes the set you just applied, especially if the teeth are very uneven or a lot needs to be removed to get a straight or slightly breasted edge along the teeth. Personally I do it in the order: - joint - sharpen (one pass from each side) - set - lightly stone to remove burrs/uneven set - test cut - smile at what an improvement I have made - tell family members how clever I am :-) -- Peter Williams |
|||
113428 | "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Peter Williams responded to Alan N. Graham with: >Personally I do it in the order: >- joint >- sharpen (one pass from each side) >- set >- lightly stone to remove burrs/uneven set >- test cut >- smile at what an improvement I have made >- tell family members how clever I am :-) Alan asked why the sequence, and the short answer is: I don't know! The long-winded answer, which leaves me to believe a career in politics could have been lucrative, follows: One of the essential differences of hand work is the obvious human element. More subtle is the need for reference when dealing with same. Downright esoteric is the application of that reference to our work in all capacities through all forms. Some would theorize that life is naught but a feed back loop. Certainly hand work is. There can be no feed back without conductivity, no conductivity without ground. No ground without.....reference. Why are we taught to keep our elbow in when aiming careful blows? Why do rest our hand on the work when carving? Why do we do the off side first, trusting to the side we can see clearly to automatically correct the symmetry? All of this os for reference. When applying this to the above, a couple of things occur to me. One is that the system for saw sharpening was worked out for hundreds of years before we came on the scene. The second is that craftspeople are conservative and slow to change, even when a better method presents itself. By following the generally accepted sequence a few key reference points are established. Jointing provides a frame-work, a parameter within which we create the teeth. Shaping clearly defines those teeth, carrying the reference further for us naturally. Once set we can sharpen, providing a blade that is ready to use. A few disconnected thoughts follow. setting after sharpening: I am leary of clomping around my sharp saw with a metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth. the sequence in general: Taking the thought to its un/natural conclusion, we have a situation in which we are setting a blade to which no filing has been done. The result would be a blade resembling a fine hacksaw blade, but with no teeth whatever. We are now faced with the problem of filing the teeth to the set. Any error, and there is sure to be some, will move the tooth forward or back, creating more or less set. Just seems easier to bring the set to the tooth. Also, no one has mentioned the virtues or lack of, an uneven set. Wouldn't this serve the same function as uneven everything? Lack of harmonic vibration, increased cutting capacity, so on and so forth? Michael McCarthy(who's dead-horse flogg-o-matic 6000 is running to capacity) Blacksmith The Farmer's Museum _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus |
|||
113431 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Michael McCarthy wrote: > Taking the thought to its un/natural > conclusion, we have a situation in which we are setting a blade to which > no filing has been done. Of course the creation of teeth allows the setting to be done in alternate directions, as long as the bend occurs somewhere within the teeth. If the seperate teeth didn't exist (e.g. if the gullets between them were magically filled back in) setting one tooth would pull on the teeth either side of it. Therefore tooth setting *MUST* be done at some sage after tooth creation (effectively tooth shaping) BugBear |
|||
113459 | Anthony Seo <tonyseo@m...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
At 06:45 AM 1/22/03 +1100, Peter Williams wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...] > > > > > > setting after sharpening: I am leary of clomping around my sharp > > saw with a > > metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth. I seem to remember reading someplace in my travails that one should set first then sharpen. This is because setting will change the angle of the tooth. Maybe not as critical with a crosscut saw but in my mind definitely something one should consider with a rip. Tony ___________________________________________________________________ Parental Woodworking 101--- Okay, where in the woods, did you last see my chisel....... ___________________________________________________________________ |
|||
113470 | Minch <ruby@m...> | 2003‑01‑21 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Jeff wrote: > The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the > guides by which we work. GG I believe the function is to get all the tips in the same line so they all do the same amount of work. Think of jointing then sharpening - then the saw gets dull. All of the teeth are still in the same line and it does no need to be jointed before sharpening. After a couple of sharpenings some of the teeth are no "taller" than others and jointing will help. But what do I know? Ed Minch |
|||
113513 | Paul Pedersen <ppedersen@v...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Hi All, been reading all this talk of saw sharpening and thought I'd add a couple of things : 1. Don't forget to wax the saw when you're done. Makes a :huge: difference, especially if there's no or little set. I just scribble around near the teeth with a candle. (do your plane soles as well :-) 2. Somewhere (probably FineWoodworking) I learned to use two pieces of wood on either side of the blade in a regular vise, instead of a saw vise. I made mine in the following shape (seen from the end) : \\/ ___ || ___ / | || | \\ / | || | \\ | | || | | | | || | | | | || | | |_____| || |_____| block saw block For fine saws (highest I did was 17tpi) what I found useful with this setup is that if you position the blocks to be just barely above the bottom of a gullet you'll file a fine groove in the tops of the blocks as you file a tooth. It's easy to see if you're level since the grooves will be of the same depth (and width) on either side of the saw. This also helps in keeping things even between teeth since the grooves are a lot easier to see than the teeth. For complete retoothing I file the teeth completely off the saw, mark the tops of the blocks with lines every tooth, then file till the lines just disappear. 3. I found that modern saws are so soft that setting a tooth will crush it if you're not careful. This makes setting them the same amount difficult. I drilled a hole through one of the set's handles (pliers-type Eclipse at the time, now have some Stanley 42*'s I haven't tried yet) and installed a bolt, adjusted so that the set will not close further that the amount I want. I can then go down the length of the saw squeezing the set till it bottoms at each tooth. Cheers, Paul (hoping it's warmer where you are, here it's -25c/-13f and very windy). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) |
|||
113454 | "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...] > > > setting after sharpening: I am leary of clomping around my sharp > saw with a > metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth. > My main sawset is the Eclipse 77 in brass, softer than the saw. I don't ever "slap it down on the freshly filed teeth" :-) -- Peter Williams |
|||
113482 | "Eric" <eb...@...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
All this talk of joint,shape,set,file or shape,set,file,joint or shape,joint,file,set............. Got me thinking of the importance of how "straight" the cutting edge of a saw is - which then made me ask myself why is a breasted saw breasted? Eric -_-_ Who's glad he's got a couple of NASTY old Disston No 7s on which to practice. |
|||
113467 | "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Gorman [mailto:Jeff@m...] > > : -----Original Message----- > The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the > guides by which we work. > But aren't you only supposed to joint when the teeth are uneven? Isn't the primary function to get a level line of teeth? Aren't the flat tops just incidental? I would only joint a saw if the teeth had become uneven after repeated hand sharpening. I used your tenon saw sharpening notes the first time I sharpened a tenon saw and they are good :-) -- Peter Williams |
|||
113480 | paul womack <pwomack@e...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
Peter Williams wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jeff Gorman [mailto:Jeff@m...] >> >>: -----Original Message----- >>The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the >>guides by which we work. >> > > > But aren't you only supposed to joint when the teeth are uneven? > Isn't the primary function to get a level line of teeth? > Aren't the flat tops just incidental? No - as Jeff say, they're an essential guide (IMHO) during the filing process. In practice there are TWO tasks, which happen to be carried out by the same process. 1) Jointing - creating an even upper "plane" on the teeth 2) flat creation - creating visible upper surfaces to guide the filing process. If your saw is already at condition (1) you just perform operation (2), which might also be described as ultra (ULTRA) gentle jointing. I actually use a big file freehand for operation (1) and smaller (much finer) file in a jig for operation (2). There is (of course) no hard and fast demarcation between the 2 processes, it's just a question of degree. BugBear (who needs all the guidance he can get when filing) |
|||
113516 | Minch <ruby@m...> | 2003‑01‑22 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
BB wrote: > In practice there are TWO tasks, which happen to be carried > out by the same process. > > 1) Jointing - creating an even upper "plane" on the teeth > 2) flat creation - creating visible upper surfaces to guide the filing > process. > > If your saw is already at condition (1) you just perform > operation (2), which might also be described as ultra (ULTRA) > gentle jointing. IMHO if you have condition 1 and have sharped 'em up and set 'em, then at re-file time there is no need to do even the slightest jointing. Just do the identical number of strokes at the identicl pressure on every tooth and they will be pretty close to level. In fact, if your reasonable at it, you can probably get 2 sharpenings before setting and 3-4 before jointing. I learnt this from a carpenter born in 1900 when he was 74, having come up at a time when all the tools he bought were sweethearts. Ed Minch |
|||
113517 | "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> | 2003‑01‑23 | Re: saw sharpening made a little easier |
> -----Original Message----- > From: Minch [mailto:ruby@m...] > > > at re-file time there is no need to do even the slightest jointing. > Just do the identical number of strokes at the identicl pressure on > every tooth and they will be pretty close to level. > you can probably get 2 sharpenings before setting and 3-4 before jointing. > I side with Ed on this one. I only joint when things have gone awry. To agree with another recent poster: I also use wooden "jaws" that get clamped in my normal vice for saw sharpening and have marked on the top sides of them the correct angle for crosscut filing. -- Peter Williams |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |