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113281 garrison@g... 2003‑01‑16 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Bug bear says:

> a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use.
> http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html
> 

Great idea, I have used a toothpick and magnet on my files and tried to 
maintain horizontal. I have notched the toothpick to create an angle but you 
have showed me a much better way. Thanks alot.

Scott Garrisopn
Duluth GA


113283 "Joseph Baron" <jgbaron@u...> 2003‑01‑16 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
BugBear says:

"Prototypes that work well tend to have surprisingly long lives"

Hereby nominated for quote of the week.

Cool gadget, too.

Regards,
Joe
_______________________________________________________
Joseph G. Baron
Raleigh, NC


113280 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑16 saw sharpening made a little easier
Summary:
In the last coupla days I've made
a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use.
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html

Long Version:
I've been trying to sharpen my own saws for a while
now. I rapidly got to the point where I could sharpen
saws better than my local hardware store (which says
more about them than me :-( ) and have been pretty
successful on large rips, dovetails, and large crosscuts.

But I've been miserably unsuccessful on small cross
cuts with teeth smaller than 8 TPI (typically
backsaws)

In his wonderful (it's my primary source)
write up on saw filing:
(
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
on his site
http://www.vintagesaws.com
)
Pete Taran says:
"With even a small change in the way you move
your wrist, you can increase or decrease the
angle by as much as 10 degrees. In saw filing,
this is a huge and unacceptable variation."

It is indeed very difficult to eyeball the angle
of a small 3 sided file to fine tolerances
(i.e. a coupla' degrees)

Pete suggests making a "Rake Alignment Jig"
which is a simple block, crammed over the
end of the file. When I tried this, I found
3 problems.

(1) I lost an inch off the end of my 4" file, where the
     block fitted

(2) When filing with a fleam angle, the block fouls
     the filing stroke even more so than in (1)

(3) It's cumbersome at best.

Robert Wearing ("a gadget for every task") suggests
making a "needle indicator" that slips over the ferrule
of the file handle, but his design involved more metal
work than I wanted to do, and called for materials I didn't
have to hand.

So I cobbled together a wooden version, where the
only metal was a #10x1" round headed screw.
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html

It's just a scrap of mahogany, drilled (with a brace, natch)
to fit over my 1/2" (bit of dowel) handle, kerfed under the hole, and
with a screw to tighten it around the handle. The angle
is indicated and magnified by the bamboo kebab skewer.

I used my trusty Nobex mitre saw to make a gauge
block with 12 degree faces at each end from a piece
of lath.

To set the gadget, I just reference one of the faces of the
file on the gauge block, turn the gadget on the axis
of the handle until the indicator is vertical, and tighten.
To maintain the rake angle is now the same task
as maintaining the indicator to vertical.

I used this gadget to perform a "top and refile" pass
over my practice saw. The results were an astonishing
improvement in teeth evenness.

Now I just have to recut/refile all my fine toothed
crosscut saws...

I'll probably make a tidier version of the gadget too,
although prototypes that work well tend to have surprisingly long
lives :-)

     BugBear (with a lot of filing and better saws in his future)


113300 "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> 2003‑01‑16 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
>Summary:
>In the last coupla days I've made
>a simple gadget and greatly improved my saws by its use.
>http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tmp.html
>
>
>     BugBear (with a lot of filing and better saws in his future)

Ok, I am going to have to try that!  In the last four months I have 
sharpened seven saws with more than 10tpi.  Like to see the difference that 
thing'll make!!  Thanks for the tip.

Michael McCarthy
Blacksmith
The Farmer's Museum

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113309 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
I use the 2.75 binocular magnifier, and I like it a lot.  I also use it  
while carving  fine stuff.  I bought the 1.75 first, but it did not  
actually magnify enough for me on fine detail.

I also have one of the magnifying lamps but I find it to be very  
limited in actual use.  It limits you to the space under the lamp.   
With the binocular magnifier you can use it anywhere.

On Friday, January 17, 2003, at 03:33  AM, Scott Quesnelle wrote:

>>
>> When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very
>> good light, and possibly magnification.
>>
>>     BugBear
> BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other  
> galoots use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set  
> of spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of  
> these binocular magnifiers like these.
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/ 
> page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&category=1,43456,43351
>
> Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by  
> electronics folks.
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/ 
> page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&category=1,41637
>
> I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw  
> sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when  
> sharpening them.
>
> Scott Quesnelle
> Guelph, Ontario
> Where it was -17C (0F) this morning.
> Who might be spending tommorow at Lee Valley learning sharpening.
>>
>>
>> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive
>> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools
>>
>
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools
>
>
Jim Thompson, the old Millrat, in Riverside, California


113313 "Ralph Brendler" <ralph@b...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Scott Quesnelle asks:

> BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other galoots
use as their magnification tool?

For my clockmaking (which has a *lot* of need for closeups), I bought a
loupe that clips onto my safety glasses.  The one I use has two lenses that
can swing down, allowing me to get a 3x view with about a 4" focal length or
a 10x view with about a 1" focal length.  Here's a catalog page that shows
what I am talking about:

http://www.startinternational.com/Product_Plug_Ins/Opticalpdf/05c_BL814117.p
df

I got mine from Timesavers (a horology supply catalog) for about $10.  It's
an Asian made knockoff, but works fine for what I need.

I have since found that this loupe is useful in a lot of other situations,
including sharpening fine saws and reading weak plane imprints.
-- 
Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO
"Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette


113311 esther.heller@k... 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Scott's looking for magnification:

The needleworkers have the same problem, here are some samples at widely
varying price points:

http://www.nordicneedle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Cod-
e=NN&Product_Code=6841 http://www.nordicneedle.com/Merchant2/merchant.m-
v?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NN&Product_Code=6858
http://www.herrschners.com/product.asp?sku=WW040199
http://www.herrschners.com/product.asp?sku=WW842302
http://www.discountneedlework.com/product_pages/lightmag.asp

Esther in very cold and snowy upstate NY USA

113307 Scott Quesnelle <scottq@c...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
>
> When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very good
> light, and possibly magnification.
>
>     BugBear
BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other galoots
use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set of
spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of these
binocular magnifiers like these.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&cate-
gory=1,43456,43351

Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by
electronics folks.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&cate-
gory=1,41637

I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw
sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when
sharpening them.

Scott Quesnelle Guelph, Ontario Where it was -17C (0F) this morning. Who
might be spending tommorow at Lee Valley learning sharpening.
>
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive To
> unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
> http://galoots.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=oldtools
>

113302 "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
   A question for the porch:  On small back saws (12-18)I have heard
that no set is required.  Does this jibe with what you have heard
as well?  If indeed they do benefit from a set, and I see no reason
they should not, how would you set them??

Michael McCarthy
Blacksmith
The Farmer's Museum

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113304 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Michael McCarthy wrote:
>
>
>
>
>   A question for the porch: On small back saws (12-18)I have heard
>   that no set is required. Does this jibe with what you have heard as
>   well? If indeed they do benefit from a set, and I see no reason they
>   should not, how would you set them??

In the sort of timbers (and cuts) were such small teeth would be used,
you're not going to need much set. In the particular case of dovetail
saws, where cuts are shallow, I rely on the filing burr from sharpening
to provide enough set. I suspect I could even stone this off, and still
cut DT's OK - a saw has very limited scope for binding in a 1/2" deep
cut in 1/4" stock!

To set small teeth requires an appropriate tool. I'm sure people who own
the famous Stanley #42X will comment on its suitablity, but I only have
(ready and cheap) access to the Eclipse #77 saw set.

In order to suitable set small teeth, I have modified one of my #77's
(did I mention "cheap") to have a narrower plunger, and shallower
anvil disc.

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i-
d=113063#message (search down for Eclipse)

When sharpening such smll teeth I would also recommend very good light,
and possibly magnification.

    BugBear

113318 Eddie Sirotich <sirotic@A...Tools.com> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Michael McCarthy wrote:

>    A question for the porch:  On small back saws (12-18)I have heard
> that no set is required.  Does this jibe with what you have heard

Having no set will work for shallow cuts, but is not a very wise thing to
do.

The amount of set depends on the task for which the saw is intended. Here
is how I set my backsaws:

- Dovetail saw: 0.003" set - lets you cut 2" deep cuts in 1" thick wood
- Small tenon saw (12"): 0.004" set - 2 1/2" deep cut in 1 1/2" thick wood
- Large tenon saw (14"): 0.005" set - 4" deep cut in 2" thick wood

These cuts will be fast and without binding. Having no set would not allow
these saws to cut half of the above sizes. The blade would be hot and the
cutting would be a frustrating experience.

Apply appropriate amount of set and saw will just float through the wood.

Eddie

Adria Toolworks Inc. - High Quality Dovetail and Tenon saws
http://www.AdriaTools.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


113328 "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> 2003‑01‑17 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
I have considered both a set of spectacles (glasses) from my local 
drugstore, or perhaps a set of these binocular magnifiers like these.
>
>http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?

Scott,
     I do a fair amount of carving and small type work and have found that 
the optivisor is the only brand that doesn't give me headaches.  I like it 
very much, but find a bench mounted glass to invaluable as focal length is 
critical and unyielding on the visors.

Michael McCarthy
Blacksmith
The Farmer's Museum

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113355 "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> 2003‑01‑18 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...]
: Sent: 17 January 2003 14:42
: To: oldtools
: Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
:
:    A question for the porch:  On small back saws (12-18)I have heard
: that no set is required.

The saw needs some steerage way in the kerf. Otherwise once launched,
the saw will be obliged to follow the initial direction.

Jeff
-- 
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Jeff@m...
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm


113366 "Charles Driggs" <cdinde@m...> 2003‑01‑19 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Scott asked,
> BugBear has brought up the point of magnification, what do other
galoots use as their magnification tool? I have considered both a set of
spectacles (glasses) from my local drugstore, or perhaps a set of these
binocular magnifiers like these.
>
>
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=40936&categ
ory=1,43456,43351
>
> Or maybe a magnifying lens combination lamp setup like those used by
electronics folks.
>
>
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=45119&categ
ory=1,41637
>
> I'm hoping to find something that would be useful for both saw
sharpening as well as examining my plane/chisel edges under when
sharpening them.

Seconds to Jim & Esther ....

I use a set of binocular magnifiers in the shop I inherited from my late
FIL .... have both 5x and 2x lenses for those, but I essentially just
use the 5x  (now that you bring it up, I'm not sure where I put the
little envelope with the 2x lenses .... hmmm).

Also have a 3x loupe, which can be useful in some instances.  Gotta have
a suitable source of light to make these magnifiers effective too.
Overhead spotlight works for me.

Several years ago I bought a clone of the Dazor lamp, with rolling base,
for SWMBO and her needlework (not cheap even as a clone!!).   I don't
think that style of lamp mounted on a rolling base would have much use
in the shop unless you were working on small stuff in a small area and
tended to sit on a stool or otherwise be stationary .... I guess that
would be Ralph at miniature clockmaking.  It's 'portable', but would be
a PITA to have to adjust frequently as your attention moves around a
decent sized workbench.  If I mounted it upside-down from the floor
joists above my workbench, as my architect's lamp is mounted, then it
would be less of a burden to adjust or move about and all I'd need to do
would be to make sure the lens and lamp cover stayed clean of fine
sawdust.  But, I don't want to lose my fingers by trying to abscond with
her lamp, and the binocular magnifiers and loupe do well enough that I
never thought of doing this before.

Charlie Driggs
Newark DE


113404 Roger Nixon <oreoblues@y...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
--- paul womack  wrote:
SNIP
 
> Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be
> tricky. A particular problem is that as the tiny last
> vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny filing burr
> *APPEARS*. Depending on your lighting and eyesight,
> this burr can reflect light a little like a flat,
> so you keep on filing... (BAD).

End Snip

I'm using a book by "Dynamite" Payson (I'll have to post the title and
author's actual name later when I have it in front of me) as a guide.
He mentions this same phenomena and says he cures it by whacking the teeth
with his file handles.  He says people question why his file handles (and
he makes handles for both ends of the file) look so chewed up.  I'd rather
keep my file handles usable so I've been using a piece of pine to remove
the burr occasionally.

=====
Roger Nixon
Out in the Flint Hills of Kansas
www.traditionaltools.com

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113399 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Jeff Gorman wrote:
> 
> : -----Original Message-----
> : From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...]
> : Sent: 17 January 2003 14:42
> : To: oldtools
> : Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
> :
> :    A question for the porch:  On small back saws (12-18)I have heard
> : that no set is required.
> 
> The saw needs some steerage way in the kerf. Otherwise once launched,
> the saw will be obliged to follow the initial direction.

I though many people considered this a desirable FEATURE,
at least in dovetail saws.

In hardwoods I find the filing burr provides adequate
kerf clearance.

    BugBear


113401 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Having sharpened a few saws recently, I thought I'd
publish some of my experiences.

In places these contradict Pete Taran's advice.
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

I think this is because Pete's too darn good
at sharpening saws, and has assimiliated some skills
so deeply that he's forgotten ever having to be
concious of them, and thus doesn't mention them.

I therefore subtitle these observations

"Hints on saw sharpening from a beginner,
for a beginner"

At the earliest stage (topping and jointing) you might
also want to check (with a straight edge) the
overall shape of the edge, and adjust it to either
be straight or breasted, depending on the purpose
of the saw. On one of my saws I forgot to do
thi check, and ended up with a well sharpended saw
with a cosmetically irritating bump in the edge;
removing this at an early stage would have been trivial,
but it would now involve resharpening the saw.
Lesson learnt :-(

I found that judging "removing half the flat"
on each of the 2 passes very difficult. I have
settled on an iterative process, removing "some
of the flat" on each pass. I simply repeat this
until there is no flat (AKA "shiner") left.

 From memory, I'm doing about 8 passes at the moment.
No doubt as my skill, judgement and confidence increase
this will reduce.

Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be
tricky. A particular problem is that as the tiny last
vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny filing burr
*APPEARS*. Depending on your lighting and eyesight,
this burr can reflect light a little like a flat,
so you keep on filing... (BAD).

If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts
of you saw will be better held than others.
As Pete comments, if your saw is not held well, it
will vibrate, and your filing will be less effetive.
The corrollary of this is that if your saw is not
held uniformly, a single file stroke will remove
different amounts of metal depending on where is
the vice you are working. This caught me out a
couple of times.

I have settled on a procedure of applying the set to the
saw just before the final 2 passes (of my multi-pass approach).
I noticed that it was quite hard to see the flats during
these final passes. On a coupla' saws I just ascribed this to
the fact that the flats were getting small, but I then realised
the problem was the set - when the set has been applied the original
flats are no longer co-planar, which make seeing them difficult.
My solution was to perform an extremely gentle topping pass,
just so the flat on the opposite facing teeth once again reflect
light from the same angle, and are thus simultanesouly visible,
making judgement much easier.

      BugBear (who has finished saw sharpening for the moment)


113409 Brent Beach <brent_beach@t...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Seems to me that 8 passes is a few more than necessary. A couple of
additional tips might reduce the number of passes.

First though, saws come in all conditions, from pretty good teeth
to weirdly shaped teeth. A saw that is in really bad shape may
take 8 passes.

paul womack wrote:
> At the earliest stage (topping and jointing) you might also want to
> check (with a straight edge) the overall shape of the edge, and adjust
> it to either

A quick look down the teeth from either end after jointing will
reveal problems.

> I found that judging "removing half the flat" on each of the 2 passes
> very difficult.

The goal is to have equal sized teeth - equal sized gullets. If you are
starting with a regularly toothed saw, removing half the flat works. I
check the gullets on either side of the current gullet on the first
pass. If this gullet is smaller, I remove more than half the flats. If
the gullet on the left is smaller, I work the right tooth more than the
left tooth. If this is the largest of the three gullets, I remove as
little as possible while still reaching the tip of both teeth. Coming
back, I normally remove the rest of the flats unless I see a gullet size
problem that I missed the first direction that requires that I leave
some flat to allow enlarging a neighbouring gullet.

> Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be tricky. A particular
> problem is that as the tiny last vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny
> filing burr *APPEARS*.

This happens on the tooth pointing away from you as you file - a wire
edge appears that reflects the light. I brush the back of that tooth to
remove this wire edge. Of course, this wire edge can be sharp.

> If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts of you saw will be
> better held than others.

Masking tape, a couple of layers, improves the grip on the saw and
reduces the vibration slightly.

> I have settled on a procedure of applying the set to the saw just
> before the final 2 passes (of my multi-pass approach).

Most authorities recommend setting before filing (Pete does it after). I
joint, then set, then file. I set fairly hard (described as "crushing
the grain of the steel, so there can be no recoil" in Charles L.
Johnson's saw manual). It seems wrong to do this after filing.

> the problem was the set - when the set has been applied the original
> flats are no longer co-planar, which make seeing them difficult.

A really bad saw might benefit from two complete filings (joint, set,
file) rather than a larger number of filing passes. For a pretty good
saw (resharpening) this should not be a problem since almost all of the
teeth should be almost correctly set.

One small additional point on filing -- the direction of work. Charles
Johnson is very specific: file so the feather edge is in the direction
of set on the front of the tooth. The Disston Lumberman's manual is also
quite specific - both sides toe to heel with the tip of the file
pointing toward the heel, arguing that this avoids the feather edge on
the crucial front of the tooth.

Has anyone noticed a specific benefit of either strategy?

Brent

113405 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Roger Nixon wrote:

> 
> I'm using a book by "Dynamite" Payson (I'll have to post the title and
> author's actual name later when I have it in front of me)

Typing the name "payson" into the wondrous Porch archive's search function
gives us:

"Keeping The Cutting Edge: Setting and Sharpening Hand and Power Saws",
by  Harold H. Payson.

    BugBear (reading up some other saw sharpneing stuff in the archive)


113413 "Alan N. Graham" <ang1235@s...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
As I was reading through the numerous postings on saw sharpening, a =
weird
thought crossed my mind.=20

There has been some discussion on whether the proper sequence should be
joint, set, sharpen or joint, sharpen, set.=20

This started me thinking about why we joint first. Setting a saw via =
normal
mechanical means is approximate at best. Although we try for the same =
set on
every (alternate) tooth, there are bound to be small differences in the =
set
of each tooth. (Or in my case, sometimes not so small differences.)If =
all
the teeth had been jointed to the same level, this varied set would =
result
in a slightly uneven edge to the saw.

Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or sharpening. Now =
the
jointing assures that the entire edge of the saw is level (assuming you =
are
not dealing with a breasted saw).=20

Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly
from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from the end =
(see
horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a =
flat
bottom tooth.

	/\\           __
     \\  \\          \\ \\
      \\  \\          \\ \\

   Joint then set    Set then joint

I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other
characteristics of the tooth.

Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first
step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me.=20

Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture?

Alan N. Graham
=20


113420 "Arthur Bailey" <curiousart@e...> 2003‑01‑20 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Bugbear says:

> If your saw vice is not perfectly even, some parts
> of you saw will be better held than others.
> As Pete comments, if your saw is not held well, it
> will vibrate, and your filing will be less effetive.

As usual, I had bought the first saw vice that flung itself in my path. I
got it home to discover that the jaws not only were somewhat misaligned,
but had a nice gap in the middle ( I swear these deformities take place on
the car ride home). I took an old bike inner tube and made a pair of
leggings for my vice. Stuck them on with some spray adhesive. The rubber
fills up the gap nicely, and also serves to dampen the filing noise.

Art Bailey
Somerville, Ma


113422 "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Alan N. Graham [mailto:ang1235@s...]
: Sent: 20 January 2003 23:05
: To: oldtools
: Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
:
: Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is
: always the first
: step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me.

The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the
guides by which we work.

If it helps, there's a run-down on tenon saw sharpening on my web site.
Please look under 'Sharpening Notes'.

Jeff
-- 
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Jeff@m...
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm


113423 "Jeff Gorman" <Jeff@m...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Roger Nixon [mailto:oreoblues@y...]
: Sent: 20 January 2003 14:56
: To: oldtools
: Cc: oldtools
: Subject: [oldtools] Re: saw sharpening made a little easier

: --- paul womack  wrote:
: SNIP
:
: > Observing exactly when the flat disappears can be
: > tricky. A particular problem is that as the tiny last
: > vestige of a flat disappears, a tiny filing burr
: > *APPEARS*. Depending on your lighting and eyesight,
: > this burr can reflect light a little like a flat,
: > so you keep on filing... (BAD).

There is a school of thought that says you should leave the tiniest
vestige of a flat. Then you know you haven't gone too far. I think there
is some sense in this since the very tips of the teeth will be eroded
within the first few strokes.

Jeff, who must have missed the start of this thread.
-- 
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Jeff@m...
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm


113426 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Alan N. Graham wrote:
> As I was reading through the numerous postings on saw sharpening, a weird
> thought crossed my mind. 
> 
> There has been some discussion on whether the proper sequence should be
> joint, set, sharpen or joint, sharpen, set. 
> 
> This started me thinking about why we joint first. Setting a saw via normal
> mechanical means is approximate at best. 

Most of the pliers sets have gauges for position and amount of set.
On the "disc anvil" type these are linked. The set is referenced
to the mean top of the teeth. That all sounds (in theory) fairly
accurate to me, and appears (IME) to be so in practice.

 > Although we try for the same set on
> every (alternate) tooth, there are bound to be small differences in the set
> of each tooth. (Or in my case, sometimes not so small differences.)If all
> the teeth had been jointed to the same level, this varied set would result
> in a slightly uneven edge to the saw.

True, but only if your assumption of uneven set is true.

> 
> Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or sharpening. Now the
> jointing assures that the entire edge of the saw is level (assuming you are
> not dealing with a breasted saw). 

But the commonest sequence is: joint, shape, set, file(sharpen).

The shape operation make the teeth (as far as possible) uniform, yes
uniform set (which I assert is the case, more or less) results in
a second, different, uniform condition.

> Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly
> from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from the end (see
> horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a flat
> bottom tooth.
> 
> 	/\\           __
>      \\  \\          \\ \\
>       \\  \\          \\ \\
> 
>    Joint then set    Set then joint
> 
> I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other
> characteristics of the tooth.

You're ignoring the fact that filing will remove these effects. The only time
jointing could effect the final shape of the teeth is if it's done last.

In fact, you've pointed out a reason that Pete Tarans approach of setting
teeth as the final operation has a interesting consequence
on a rip saw; the edge of the tooth near the centre line of the saw
will be slightly higher than the outside, so the saw will cut a slightly
'V' shaped  groove, instead of the flat bottomed dado normally pictured.

> 
> Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first
> step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me. 

Jeff answered this.

> 
> Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture?

I've tried my best ;-)

     BugBear


113414 "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan N. Graham [mailto:ang1235@s...]
> 
> Suppose that we set the teeth first, before jointing or 
> sharpening.  
> Jointing before setting results in a tooth edge which will rise slightly
> from the outside to the inside of the saw blade when seen from 
> the end (see
> horrible ascii art below). Setting before jointing would result in a flat
> bottom tooth.
> 
> 	/\\           __
>      \\  \\          \\ \\
>       \\  \\          \\ \\
> 
>    Joint then set    Set then joint
> 
> I haven't even attempted to calculate how this would affect the other
> characteristics of the tooth.
> 
> Now, obviously, there must be a reason that jointing is always the first
> step. However, it's not immediately obvious to me. 
> 
> Anyone like to explain what I'm missing about this picture?
> 

Maybe setting first then jointing removes the set you just applied,
especially if the teeth are very uneven or a lot needs to be removed
to get a straight or slightly breasted edge along the teeth.

Personally I do it in the order:
 - joint
 - sharpen (one pass from each side)
 - set
 - lightly stone to remove burrs/uneven set
 - test cut
 - smile at what an improvement I have made
 - tell family members how clever I am :-)

-- 
Peter Williams


113428 "Michael McCarthy" <mccarthymp@h...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
  Peter Williams responded to Alan N. Graham with:
>Personally I do it in the order:
 >- joint
 >- sharpen (one pass from each side)
 >- set
 >- lightly stone to remove burrs/uneven set
 >- test cut
 >- smile at what an improvement I have made
 >- tell family members how clever I am :-)

Alan asked why the sequence, and the short answer is:  I don't know! The 
long-winded answer, which leaves me to believe a career in politics could 
have been lucrative, follows:

     One of the essential differences of hand work is the obvious human 
element.  More subtle is the need for reference when dealing with same.  
Downright esoteric is the application of that reference to our work in all 
capacities through all forms.  Some would theorize that life is naught but a 
feed back loop.  Certainly hand work is.  There can be no feed back without 
conductivity, no conductivity without ground.  No ground 
without.....reference.  Why are we taught to keep our elbow in when aiming 
careful blows?  Why do rest our hand on the work when carving?  Why do we do 
the off side first, trusting to  the side we can see clearly to 
automatically correct the symmetry? All of this os for reference.  When 
applying this to the above, a couple of things occur to me.  One is that the 
system for saw sharpening was worked out for hundreds of years before we 
came on the scene.  The second is that craftspeople are conservative and 
slow to change, even when a better method presents itself.
     By following the generally accepted sequence a few key reference points 
are established.  Jointing provides a frame-work, a parameter within which 
we create the teeth.  Shaping clearly defines those teeth, carrying the 
reference further for us naturally.  Once set we can sharpen, providing a 
blade that is ready to use.  A few disconnected thoughts follow.

setting after sharpening:  I am leary of clomping around my sharp saw with a 
metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth.

the sequence in general:  Taking the thought to its un/natural conclusion, 
we have a situation in which we are setting a blade to which no filing has 
been done.  The result would be a blade resembling a fine hacksaw blade, but 
with no teeth whatever.  We are now faced with the problem of filing the 
teeth to the set.  Any error, and there is sure to be some, will move the 
tooth forward or back, creating more or less set.  Just seems easier to 
bring the set to the tooth.

Also, no one has mentioned the virtues or lack of, an uneven set.  Wouldn't 
this serve the same function as uneven everything?  Lack of harmonic 
vibration, increased cutting capacity, so on and so forth?

Michael McCarthy(who's dead-horse flogg-o-matic 6000 is running to capacity)
Blacksmith
The Farmer's Museum

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113431 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Michael McCarthy wrote:
 > Taking the thought to its un/natural
> conclusion, we have a situation in which we are setting a blade to which 
> no filing has been done.

Of course the creation of teeth allows the setting to be done
in alternate directions, as long as the bend occurs
somewhere within the teeth.

If the seperate teeth didn't exist (e.g. if the gullets between
them were magically filled back in) setting one tooth
would pull on the teeth either side of it.

Therefore tooth setting *MUST* be done at some
sage after tooth creation (effectively tooth shaping)

    BugBear


113459 Anthony Seo <tonyseo@m...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
At 06:45 AM 1/22/03 +1100, Peter Williams wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...]
> >
> >
> > setting after sharpening:  I am leary of clomping around my sharp
> > saw with a
> > metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth.

I seem to remember reading someplace in my travails that one should set 
first then sharpen.  This is because setting will change the angle of the 
tooth.  Maybe not as critical with a crosscut saw but in my mind definitely 
something one should consider with a rip.

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Parental Woodworking 101---
Okay, where in the woods, did you last see my chisel.......
___________________________________________________________________


113470 Minch <ruby@m...> 2003‑01‑21 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Jeff  wrote:

> The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the
> guides by which we work.

GG

I believe the function is to get all the tips in the same line so they all
do the same amount of work.  Think of jointing then sharpening - then the
saw gets dull.  All of the teeth are still in the same line and it does no
need to be jointed before sharpening.  After a couple of sharpenings some of
the teeth are no "taller" than others and jointing will help.

But what do I know?

Ed Minch


113513 Paul Pedersen <ppedersen@v...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Hi All, been reading all this talk of saw sharpening and thought I'd add
a couple of things :

1.  Don't forget to wax the saw when you're done.  Makes a :huge: difference,
    especially if there's no or little set.  I just scribble around near the
    teeth with a candle.  (do your plane soles as well :-)

2.  Somewhere (probably FineWoodworking) I learned to use two pieces of 
    wood on either side of the blade in a regular vise, instead of a saw
    vise.  I made mine in the following shape (seen from the end) :

                      \\/
                 ___  ||  ___
                /   | || |   \\
               /    | || |    \\
              |     | || |     |
              |     | || |     |
              |     | || |     |
              |_____| || |_____|

               block saw   block

    For fine saws (highest I did was 17tpi) what I found useful with this
    setup is that if you position the blocks to be just barely above the
    bottom of a gullet you'll file a fine groove in the tops of the blocks
    as you file a tooth.  It's easy to see if you're level since the grooves
    will be of the same depth (and width) on either side of the saw.  This
    also helps in keeping things even between teeth since the grooves are a 
    lot easier to see than the teeth.  For complete retoothing I file the 
    teeth completely off the saw, mark the tops of the blocks with lines 
    every tooth, then file till the lines just disappear.

3.  I found that modern saws are so soft that setting a tooth will crush it
    if you're not careful.  This makes setting them the same amount difficult.
    I drilled a hole through one of the set's handles (pliers-type Eclipse at
    the time, now have some Stanley 42*'s I haven't tried yet) and installed a
    bolt, adjusted so that the set will not close further that the amount I
    want.  I can then go down the length of the saw squeezing the set till it
    bottoms at each tooth.

Cheers,

Paul  (hoping it's warmer where you are, here it's -25c/-13f and very windy).

Paul Pedersen     
Montreal (Quebec)


113454 "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael McCarthy [mailto:mccarthymp@h...]
> 
> 
> setting after sharpening:  I am leary of clomping around my sharp 
> saw with a 
> metal saw set, slapping the guide down onto freshly filed teeth.
> 

My main sawset is the Eclipse 77 in brass, softer than the saw.
I don't ever "slap it down on the freshly filed teeth"  :-)

-- 
Peter Williams


113482 "Eric" <eb...@...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
All this talk of joint,shape,set,file or shape,set,file,joint or
shape,joint,file,set.............

Got me thinking of the importance of how "straight" the cutting edge of a
saw is - which then made me ask myself why is a breasted saw breasted?

Eric
-_-_ 

Who's glad he's got a couple of NASTY old Disston No 7s on which to
practice.


113467 "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Gorman [mailto:Jeff@m...]
> 
> : -----Original Message-----
> The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the
> guides by which we work.
> 

But aren't you only supposed to joint when the teeth are uneven?
Isn't the primary function to get a level line of teeth?
Aren't the flat tops just incidental?
I would only joint a saw if the teeth had become uneven after
repeated hand sharpening.

I used your tenon saw sharpening notes the first time I sharpened
a tenon saw and they are good :-)

-- 
Peter Williams


113480 paul womack <pwomack@e...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
Peter Williams wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jeff Gorman [mailto:Jeff@m...]
>>
>>: -----Original Message-----
>>The principal function of jointing is to create the essential flats, the
>>guides by which we work.
>>
> 
> 
> But aren't you only supposed to joint when the teeth are uneven?
> Isn't the primary function to get a level line of teeth?
> Aren't the flat tops just incidental?

No - as Jeff say, they're an essential guide (IMHO)
during the filing process.

In practice there are TWO tasks, which happen to be carried
out by the same process.

1) Jointing - creating an even upper "plane" on the teeth
2) flat creation - creating visible upper surfaces to guide the filing
process.

If your saw is already at condition (1) you just perform
operation (2), which might also be described as ultra (ULTRA)
gentle jointing.

I actually use a big file freehand for operation (1)
and smaller (much finer) file in a jig for operation (2).

There is (of course) no hard and fast demarcation
between the 2 processes, it's just a question of degree.

      BugBear (who needs all the guidance he can get when filing)


113516 Minch <ruby@m...> 2003‑01‑22 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
BB wrote:

> In practice there are TWO tasks, which happen to be carried
> out by the same process.
> 
> 1) Jointing - creating an even upper "plane" on the teeth
> 2) flat creation - creating visible upper surfaces to guide the filing
> process.
> 
> If your saw is already at condition (1) you just perform
> operation (2), which might also be described as ultra (ULTRA)
> gentle jointing.

IMHO if you have condition 1 and have sharped 'em up and set 'em, then at
re-file time there is no need to do even the slightest jointing.  Just do
the identical number of strokes at the identicl pressure on every tooth and
they will be pretty close to level.  In fact, if your reasonable at it, you
can probably get 2 sharpenings before setting and 3-4 before jointing.  I
learnt this from a carpenter born in 1900 when he was 74, having come up at
a time when all the tools he bought were sweethearts.

Ed Minch


113517 "Peter Williams" <peter.williams@h...> 2003‑01‑23 Re: saw sharpening made a little easier
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Minch [mailto:ruby@m...]
>
>
> at re-file time there is no need to do even the slightest jointing.
> Just do the identical number of strokes at the identicl pressure on
> every tooth and they will be pretty close to level.
> you can probably get 2 sharpenings before setting and 3-4 before jointing.
>

I side with Ed on this one. I only joint when things have gone awry.

To agree with another recent poster:
I also use wooden "jaws" that get clamped in my normal vice for
saw sharpening and have marked on the top sides of them the correct
angle for crosscut filing.

-- 
Peter Williams



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