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206780 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑01 | Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Greetings Assembled, Went to an outdoor estate antique sale just outside of town this weekend. Two big tents set up, some stuff on hay wagons, in a barn and garage. I had hopes of finding something of interest, but it wasn't looking good. The stuff that was there was priced higher than an antique mall along the interstate and it wasn't looking like a manly tool to be found. Then I spied two or three saws on one of the wagons and made a beeline. There I found a Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw (closed handle) in good shape. Turned it over and was surprised to see split nuts, something I haven't seen in a coon's age. It was priced at $2 and everything was 10% off on Sat. (That is to say within my alloted discretionary income, if only just). I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts between 1850-1860. Can anyone confirm that, or is it all wet? That would be a pretty stinkin' old tool to find in Nebraska, considering we became a State in 1867. Either way, I was pretty delighted with the find. The teeth are in excellent condition and straight as can be. In searching through the archives I found a post by Pete Taran asking someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as odds are that it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said for the S&J? Darren Addy Kearney, NE -- Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206787 | Archie England <christinmedaily@y...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Now, this post is a further example of why I MUST continue to hang out with you guys!!!! MOST Fabulous insight, and timely, too. This has halted my planes to do a little rehab on an old but needy saw with split nuts. Many, many thanks... Archie --- On Mon, 8/2/10, dynnyrne@n...t.au |
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206784 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
> > GG I undoubtedly have this wrong, but I think that Disston invented the saw nut as we know it now in 1875, so any Disston with split nuts is older than that, but from other makers could be younger too. Imagine the confusion a hundred years from now when 22nd century gilutes come across a "modern" split nut saw. > > I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some > Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts > between 1850-1860. Ed Minch ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206786 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Thanks for the replies (and for remembering Harrison). The play in the handle is no more than 1/16" so that would not be my primary reason even thinking about taking it apart (I won't now). I was thinking in terms of doing a nicer restoration. I'll put up a couple photos later, but there is probably nothing terribly remarkable about its appearance, in its current state, and I'd like to do more to it one day. Ed brings up a good point about future historians. Forget FUTURE historians and look at the problem we have right now! I think it outlines one of the dangers of relying on Google/the internet to find information. Sure you can find good information, but let's say that somebody confused Disston and S&J and posted somewhere that S&J stopped using split nuts between 1850-1860. Google now indexes it where someone finds it and repeats it later, where Google indexes it. The more times the false information appears the more likely it is to get cited as an authoritative bit of information (again), when it may not be true at all. Seems strange to me that it is hard to find historical information on Spear & Jackson. I figgered there'd be a web site devoted to them or something. Found the "official" company web site, but not a lot on the history/historical tools. Certainly nothing like has been done with Disston (probably because they were an American company). Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206788 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Here's a link to Pete Taran's original post on the subject (at least the original one I referred to): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtools/message/64570 Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206799 | Ben Belzer <benbelzer@h...> | 2010‑08‑02 | RE: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
(snip) > I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J. Before I knew better > I had a> few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old split > nuts on old saws. I> don't do it any more. I either pack the handle > slot=2C or live with the handle> being a little loose or put the saw > in the till and reflect on how maybe the> loose handle is the reason > it was still there for me to find. (un-snip) OK=2C so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts=2C what would you use a split nut driver bit for? -Ben enquiring minds want to know ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------ |
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206805 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On 8/2/2010 10:57 AM, CheekyGeek wrote: > This forum post makes me think my saw is not so terribly old as I > would have liked to think: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?s- > =040b6c6b1d04b2162843c5a41ff363b5&p=1318430&postcountWell Heck, we all > know Ray G is not a knowledgeable source when it comes to saws...................... OK, not really, I believe he's up there near the pedestals holding Mr Taran (VintageSaws) and Mr von Sneidern (DisstonianInstitute) when it comes to saw knowledge And WKfinetools is Wiktor Kuc's site, a repository for some list articles. -- Kirk Eppler in HMB, doing quality control with a digital caliper, and sweating 0.05mm changes. Someone's not going to be happy with me, but they are 3mm+ off. But at least good music is coming out of the PC today. Pharmaceutical and Packaging Engineering ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206808 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Joshua Clark wrote: > As far as maintenance goes.. If a saw has absolutely virgin split nuts > and a loose handle, I don't try to tighten them. When the handles were > finished the nuts were filed flat, leaving a nice fit and finish. This > also reduces the depth of the slots making them hard to grip with a > driver. If you do manage to turn the nuts without caming out, the > screw is never likely to be flush with the handle again, and it will > look monkeyed with. Instead, use a very thin shim or better yet, try > to add some very thin oil to the slot in the handle. Sometimes this > will make it swell enough to regain a good grip on the saw plate and > spine. > > If the saw nuts have been tightened already, then there's no harm in > trying to do it again. I use a brace with a split nut bit to make sure > I have a good grip and enough torque. Some screws will break off, > others may blow-out the wood surrounding the nut if you aren't > careful, so go slow. It's good to have lots and lots of spare split nuts. > > Earlier this year I sold a nice mid-1800s split nut backsaw to a > Galoot. Before shipping it I made sure the handle was tight. When he > received it a week later he mentioned that the handle was too loose to > use and sent it back. I received the saw and sure enough, the handle > was loose. I threw it in my repair pile and didn't think about it > again until a few weeks later. When I picked it up again the handle > was tight as could be. The difference in humidity between my shop and > his led to the handle shrinking and loosing its grip on the blade. A > little linseed oil fixed this problem for good. Dang good information Josh, thanks for sharing. I've tried the wooden clamp with a hole in it to try to squeeze the cheeks to encourage the nut to tighten, and that didn't help either on the loose handled one I have. -- Kirk Eppler Pharmaceutical and Packaging Engineering eppler.kirk@g... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206798 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
> Very good point made. Even having pictures won't necessary be enough > supporting documentation. What would be sufficient to have a statement > be verifiable? I know the stuff on the OldTools list is peer reviewed. > Maybe that is the benchmark. Well, for dating stuff I think it all goes back to the ephemera. If we have a range of printed catalogs or advertisements we can note when certain features changed and then come up with authoritative "type studies". Somebody just has to have access to a good collection of ephemera and a particular question that they want to investigate, along with the desire to share what they find with others (through an article, web page, or mailing list post). That's what's always been great about the Porch. Even the official Spear & Jackson web site says they don't know much about their company prior to 1889. I did find a reference to S&J (listing what they produced and mentioning backsaws) being an exhibitor at an 1851 "Great Exhibition" through Google Books: http://www.pixelsmithy.com/i mg/spear-and-jackson- 1851.png The whole book might be of some interest to Galoots, but not terribly well illustrated. TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/32sb8qs Full URL: http://books.google.com/books?id=lLgXAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA606&ots=c7QzjiSJZ- &dq=%22Spear%20%26%20Jackson%22%20backsaw%20site%3Abooks.google.com&pg=- PA606#v=onepage&q&f=false This forum post makes me think my saw is not so terribly old as I would have liked to think: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?s=040b6c6- b1d04b2162843c5a41ff363b5&p=1318430&postcount Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206810 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:34 AM, CheekyGeek wrote: >> >> OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what would you use a split nut driver bit for? >> > And, of course, Lie Nielsen would love to sell you some: > > http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lie-nielsensplitnutdriverfordovetailsawnu t.aspx Of course :). I suspect they sell this because they're also making new saws wit h split nuts. According to their site, any L-N saw with an open handle has spli t nuts, so evidently it's safe to tighten them. This thread makes split nuts so und like an odd choice, though. The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by their non-s plit saw nut driver: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR# I keep using the wrong screwdriver on saw nuts, just because I'm lazy (I don't h ave one with a wide enough blade, and I haven't looked hard enough for one that I can modify). Maybe I should look for scrap steel to make one...my putty knife seems about the right thickness. Adam Port Angeles, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206801 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Ed muses... > Another thing that can be used for dating is the stamp versus etch. > =A0I can't find it right now, but I remember seeing that Disston > started etching just after the civil war, so if your Disston is > stamped or etched with the name on the blade, then you have a clue. > =A0I wonder if there is a general date when the industry did this? > =A0And why the change?? =A0There are probably other features that can > help date a saw - handle shape??Horn shape?? number of nuts?? (could > never match this list) =A0How much did the industry follow the > leader?? When did Disston become the leader?? We're drifting a bit here, but I'll go with it... :) Good article on the transition from Sheffield being the epicenter of handsaws (prior to 1850) and transitioning to America (and Disston): http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pbaker/amBacksaw/amBacksaw1.asp Also a great article on the U.S. Patents improving the saw nuts & Medallions: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pbaker/medallions- castStamp/medallions-castStamp-1.asp I'm afraid that I don't know whose site it is, but it is great (and I'm sure it is someone on the Porch. Looks like Mr. Grandstaff has contributed there). I have to believe these have been pointed to and discussed on the Porch before, but I was away for a good while. Darren Addy Kearney, NE --Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206803 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
> OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what would you > use a split nut driver bit for? > > -Ben enquiring minds want to know Stated purpose: "In the 19th century a standard set of 36 brace bits included a forked turnscrew bit - which was used for tightening split saw nuts. It was an important bit to the carpenter because with changes in weather it was (and is) not unusual for a handle to loosen. So having a standard bit to tighten it up made for good sense and much more satisfying sawing. " Source: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Sessio- n_ID=08b3a1e958302021d27cd9a5a48d4361&Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&n- extpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogIDwhich also includes a scan from a 1908 Tyzak catalogue (as the Brits spell it). MAKE magazine had a reader contribute one they made themselves: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/06/homemade_split_nut_driver.html (Looks suspiciously similar to Grandstaff Quality) And, of course, Lie Nielsen would love to sell you some: http://www.highlandwood working.com/lie- nielsensplitnutdriverfordovetailsawnut.aspx : ) Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206796 | "Dave Nighswander" <wishingstarfarm663@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Snip The more times the false information appears the more likely it is to get cited as an authoritative bit of information (again), when it may not be true at all. Unsnip Very good point made. Even having pictures won't necessary be enough supporting documentation.What would be sufficient to have a statement be verifiable? I know the stuff on the OldTools list is peer reviewed. Maybe that is the benchmark. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206804 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
> MAKE magazine had a reader contribute one they made themselves: > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/06/homemade_split_nut_driver.html > (Looks suspiciously similar to Grandstaff Quality) Upon further review, I'd guess that "Funky Space Cowboy" would indicate that the maker was our own "Josh, the Funky Space Cowboy". Yeah, I'm a regular Sherlock Holmes, I am. Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206800 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:57 PM, CheekyGeek wrote: > If we > have a range of printed catalogs or advertisements we can note when > certain features changed and then come up with authoritative "type > studies". Another thing that can be used for dating is the stamp versus etch. I can't find it right now, but I remember seeing that Disston started etching just after the civil war, so if your Disston is stamped or etched with the name on the blade, then you have a clue. I wonder if there is a general date when the industry did this? And why the change?? There are probably other features that can help date a saw - handle shape??Horn shape?? number of nuts?? (could never match this list) How much did the industry follow the leader?? When did Disston become the leader?? Ed Minch ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206807 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Joshua Clark |
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206802 | "Bill Taggart" <w.taggart@v...> | 2010‑08‑02 | RE: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
::-----Original Message----- ::From: oldtools-bounces@r... ::[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of ::Ben Belzer ::Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:01 PM ::To: dynnyrne@n...; oldtools@r... ::Subject: RE: [OldTools] Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question ::OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what ::would you use a split nut driver bit for? Mucking up your split nut saws. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206806 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
I'm no expert when it comes to saw nuts. This is the way I've come to understand it: Early split nuts were cast in one piece. Many early handsaws including all pre-1876 Disstons have this type of split nut. The first improvement was Washburn's 1867 patent for improved split nuts. These were wrought and assembled from two pieces of material. I don't think Disston ever used this patent, rather, they continued to cast their saw screws in one piece. Some early Peace saws have this type of saw screw. The second improvement was Munger's 1869 patent for two-piece split nut type saw screws. Again, I don't think Disston used these. I have several Peace saws with this type of saw screw. In 1876 Disston patented an improved saw screw that was cast in one piece and used a screw head rather than a split nut. I don't think other saw maker's used this patent. I don't think Disston cast the patent dates into these saw nuts. The final improvement was Glover's 1887 patent for an improved saw screw- the one we see on most post-1900 saws. It is wrought rather than cast, in one piece making it strong and cheap. Soon, all saw makers adopted it. Some sawmakers continued to use split nuts well after the Glover's patent improved nuts we widely adopted. Peace, for example, used split nuts on his lower-end models like the Darlington, until at least as late as 1895, perhaps longer. Spear and Jackson used split nuts on some low-end models until at least 1915 (date based on a description found in a S&J catalog reprint). I assume this was due to cost- the new Munger patent screws must have been more expensive, even if they were a superior product. As far as maintenance goes.. If a saw has absolutely virgin split nuts and a loose handle, I don't try to tighten them. When the handles were finished the nuts were filed flat, leaving a nice fit and finish. This also reduces the depth of the slots making them hard to grip with a driver. If you do manage to turn the nuts without caming out, the screw is never likely to be flush with the handle again, and it will look monkeyed with. Instead, use a very thin shim or better yet, try to add some very thin oil to the slot in the handle. Sometimes this will make it swell enough to regain a good grip on the saw plate and spine. If the saw nuts have been tightened already, then there's no harm in trying to do it again. I use a brace with a split nut bit to make sure I have a good grip and enough torque. Some screws will break off, others may blow-out the wood surrounding the nut if you aren't careful, so go slow. It's good to have lots and lots of spare split nuts. Earlier this year I sold a nice mid-1800s split nut backsaw to a Galoot. Before shipping it I made sure the handle was tight. When he received it a week later he mentioned that the handle was too loose to use and sent it back. I received the saw and sure enough, the handle was loose. I threw it in my repair pile and didn't think about it again until a few weeks later. When I picked it up again the handle was tight as could be. The difference in humidity between my shop and his led to the handle shrinking and loosing its grip on the blade. A little linseed oil fixed this problem for good. Hope this helps, Josh On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Ed Minch wrote: > >> >> GG > > I undoubtedly have this wrong, but I think that Disston invented the > saw nut as we know it now in 1875, so any Disston with split nuts > is older than that, but from other makers could be younger too. > Imagine the confusion a hundred years from now when 22nd century > gilutes come across a "modern" split nut saw. >> >> I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some >> Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts >> between 1850-1860. > > Ed Minch > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206818 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: >> The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by >> their non-split saw nut driver: http://www.lie- >> nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR# I am surprised that Scott hasn't jumped on this one yet, so I'll take a shot at it. I mean, golly gee whiz, Batman! Only $285 for a set of 8 screwdrivers in a genuine leather pouch?!?! Plus shipping? How could you possibly go wrong? I mean, you would probably use one of them at least once a year. Or one screwdriver for only $25 to $30? Such a deal! How about a piece of 3/8" or even 1/2" round stock that you heat the end of and bash it with a good sized hammer, then grind and file it to the proper shape, then add a handle, all for about a dollar? Need one for split nuts? File a slot in the end. Unlike Scott, I won't comment on the yuppies who buy this stuff. And, YES! The price gags me too! But I guess if you have money to burn it doesn't matter what you burn it with. Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206812 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Thanks for that Tony. Bookmarking that page. I can't speak for anybody else, but this has been one HECK of an informative thread for me! I love this place! Darren Addy Kearney, NE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206783 | dynnyrne@n... | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Friends, Darren asked re his keenly priced Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw > In searching through the archives I found a post by Pete Taran asking > someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as odds are that > it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said for the S&J? Hi Harrison, Don't often get a chance to respond to you! I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J. Before I knew better I had a few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old split nuts on old saws. I don't do it any more. I either pack the handle slot, or live with the handle being a little loose or put the saw in the till and reflect on how maybe the loose handle is the reason it was still there for me to find. My experiences were as follows: Old yellow metal bolts and split nuts are usually (if not invariably) seized into the wood of the handle. I guess that as the handle has dried out it has shrunk. Or the handle was finished before assembly and the old finish coat has hold of the head or the nut or the shank or all three. If the bolts and nuts aren't seized to the handle one or more will be corroded to each other Split nut bolts are made out of soft and weak metal and the bolt shank is small in diameter compared to the bolt and nut head diameter (sometimes even a square section)ie extra weak. That in turn leads to the discovery that there are as many nut and bolt sizes as there are saw makers, and few if any are interchangeable, even within different saws by the same maker. My experiences have ended in frustration with one or more of the following: broken bolt shank or chipped handle (chip lifted out by nut or bolt head). The one occasion I managed to get everything apart without tears I found it impossible to get everything back together with the bolt and nut sitting flush and flat. So, for what its worth my advice is that you leave the split nuts well alone, unless they are loose in the handle and the nuts are loose on the bolts. If you decide to try and tighten them go gently, its easier to break the bolt shank or strip the thread than it is to draw in the handle cheeks. My experiences wasn't expensive to gain, but it was immensely frustrating in the gaining and caused me considerable grief and regret. YMMV, but as Mr Eastwood was wont to ask: "You feeling lucky?" Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206811 | Anthony Seo <tonyseo@p...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
At 07:54 AM 8/2/2010, CheekyGeek wrote: >Seems strange to me that it is hard to find historical information on >Spear & Jackson. I figgered there'd be a web site devoted to them or >something. Found the "official" company web site, but not a lot on the >history/historical tools. Certainly nothing like has been done with >Disston (probably because they were an American company). In the beginning there was John Spear who worked from 1814 - 1824 Then we head Spear, Jackson & Co 1825 - 1829 (as listed in the trade directories, then just Spear & Jackson 1830 - 1910, followed by Spear & Jackson, Ltd 1910 - 1985. So much for the history as I have it here. I would say that in all probability they didn't stop using split nuts on saws until at least the very end of the 19th century (late 1800's), As far as restoring it goes, been there done that more than a few times. http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/restoration/spears/spears.html One thing to watch is that the brass on those screws tends to be very soft and is easily bent and or stripped. If the blade has gotten rusted back inside the tote, some times that tightens up the holes in the blade which are fairly snug to start with. I lay the tote over one of the dog holes in the bench with a piece of paper towel underneath, just in case the screw decides to fall out easily (rare but it beats having to go down with a flashlight in the mess under the bench.). I tap them very carefully with the tip of a junk socket chisel handle till it gets up far enough to grab, Now the heads on those things are nasty sharp. I give them a few wraps with electrical tape before trying to get it with my fingers. Some times they wlggle out, some times you have to unscrew them at least until it's clear of the blade. As I am cleaning the blade I push a small round file though the holes in the blade a few times just to get rid of any crap in there. Just enough that the screw will slide back through easily. I haven't done one in a spell but that and the webpage should cover most of the gotcha's. Tony Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic http://www.myspace.com/tonyseomusic ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206824 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
To back up my rant about the expensive screwdrivers, I just went out and forged (in about 2 minutes) the end of the Perfect Handle screwdriver I found last week, which I was planning to use as a donor for another tool. I had put new scales on it this morning, then tossed it on the pile of future projects. After forging the end, I filed the end to go into ordinary saw nuts, but with a few strokes of a file it could easily be modified to use on split nuts. I did not harden the end as that is not necessary for saw nuts. In fact I recently broke one that was hardened, but not correctly tempered. I used some of the black acacia wood I have been hoarding for the scales. It's a decent looking screwdriver, and it only cost a dollar. So much for the $30 screwdrivers, because I like mine better. First two pictures. Take a look: http://picasaweb.google.com/oldmillrat/OLdToolFinds# The old Millrat in Riverside CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206825 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 3:17 PM, James Thompson wrote: > On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: > >> >> The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by their non-split saw nut driver: >> >> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR# > > > I am surprised that Scott hasn't jumped on this one yet, so I'll take a shot at it. I knew someone couldn't pass up a troll like that, but I was expecting Scott to be first :). > > I mean, golly gee whiz, Batman! Only $285 for a set of 8 screwdrivers in a g enuine leather pouch?!?! Plus shipping? How could you possibly go wrong? I mean, you would probably use one of them at least once a year. Or one screwdriver for only $25 to $30? Such a deal! > > > How about a piece of 3/8" or even 1/2" round stock that you heat the end of and bash it with a good sized hammer, then grind and file it to the proper shape , then add a handle, all for about a dollar? Need one for split nuts? File a slo t in the end. Google also found this thread on the list: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=111364#message Like the poster there, I haven't been able to find a wide, flat blade screwdrive r to modify at the local hardware stores. The great thing about this list is that I now have multiple options, thanks to T om Dugan, you, and the archives, any of which is more satisfying than coughing u p $25 for a screwdriver. Of course, I'll have to pick up some flat or round sto ck on the way home from work, and I don't have anything to heat it with or bash it against. > > Unlike Scott, I won't comment on the yuppies who buy this stuff. And, YES! T he price gags me too! But I guess if you have money to burn it doesn't matter wh at you burn it with. I don't think of myself as a yuppie; heck, my wife and I have four kids and mine is the single income. An old tool off eBay is usually my first choice, but I h ave no qualms about buying new tools if I need something to finish a project; it 's a tradeoff of burning money or time (on the computer or driving around). There are other factors also, like never having made a screwdriver handle. I di dn't know you could use brass rod to make a rivet, and I'd never seen a Perfect Handle until looking at some of the pictures you posted recently. So thanks for that and the articles on wkfinetools! -- Adam ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206827 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: The great thing about this list is that I now have multiple options, thanks to Tom Dugan, you, and the archives, any of which is more satisfying than coughing up $25 for a screwdriver. Of course, I'll have to pick up some flat or round stock on the way home from work, and I don't have anything to heat it with or bash it against. > There are other factors also, like never having made a screwdriver > handle. I didn't know you could use brass rod to make a rivet, and I'd > never seen a Perfect Handle until looking at some of the pictures you > posted recently. So thanks for that and the articles on wkfinetools! You don't have to have any means of heating or forging round stock to make a screwdriver. You can rough shape the end with a hacksaw, then file it to the desired shape. Start with round stock the same diameter as the sawnut. Handles? We have seen handles made of home grown, range fed tree limbs, and they work just fine. Maybe they aren't as pretty as some, but they do work. Make a tool! It's habit forming. :>) Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206814 | Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> | 2010‑08‑02 | RE: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Adam writes: >> The price always causes me to choke=2C but I admit to being tempted >> by their non-split saw nut driver: http://www.lie- >> nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR# I keep using the wrong screwdriver >> on saw nuts=2C just because I'm lazy (I don't have one with a wide >> enough blade=2C and I haven't looked hard enough for one that I can >> modify). Maybe I should look for scrap steel to make one...my putty >> knife seems about the right thickness. Adam > Port Angeles=2C WA > I made one in about an hour using a scrap of 1/2 X 1/16 steel=2C probably bought at the Borg. Took a hunk 6 or 7 inches long. The notch was going to be ground out. Seemed simple enough=2C but once Istarted I realized it would take forever=2C so I drilled a hole about 3/8" down from the end then hacksawed the little center piece out. I planned to harden it=2C but then realized that the soft metal I wasusing it on would much prefer a softer steel=2C so not only do you notneed to go that route=2C I think it would do more harm than good. I made an Imperfect Handle(TM) for it. Took a chunk of cherry=2C rough shaped it=2C riveted it to the steel using a couple of 1/16" brass rod pieces (again from the local hardware store)=2C then rasped and filed until Close Enough. The end needed ground a tad thinner until it was snug in the slot=2C and Bob's yer uncle. Worked perfectly. -T ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------ |
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206833 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Man oh Man Teach me to get an ear infection and be indisposed for a few hours! Geeeeeeze Ok split nuts are like any other saw screw. They cannot be driven with an ordinary screwdriver!! Split nuts are obvious but regular saw screws are just as finicky. You can't even make a single driver to fit all saw screws. They make different sized slots on you! You'll need several if you work on saws much at all. So you have to grind a bit to fit the saw. You get lucky and it will fit more screws too. You won't need dozens but you'll need several by the end. I am not in the mood to make fun of fools who would spend a lot of money on a "made 500 in an hour" factory screwdriver, no matter how pretty the catalog is printed. Its factory work. But I am certainly in the mood to make fun of dolts who are so quick to post retail sucker bait in any public forum!?!? Whats up with that?? 2 minutes on the board and somebody can't want to post the retail offering any moron can find in 45 seconds with their eyes closed?? You thought you'd inform us the sky is blue and in what direction you can find it too, I suppose? Anyway, you don't even need a special screwdriver donor for making a driver for saw screws. (yes, I've made some anyway, hee hheheh) But, you can pick any regular excess driver that is nearly large enough. Heat up the tip bright red and pound it out flatter/wider. No real blacksmith skill or tools required. Any hammer and any heavy piece of steel for an anvil. The bit has to be considerably thinner than a normal screwdriver to fit to a saw screw anyway. Grind from there. Or just take an even larger screwdriver and grind the tip back until its wide enough, and then start grinding it thinner from there. The trick with all of them is the same as every gunsmith lives by. The driver has to fit the slot! Actually fit the slot. No factory made driver is ever going to actually fit, whatever you paid. Get over it and make your own. Take your time. Take a little off each side, dunking inbetween and sneak up on the fit. When you have the bit thin enough, take a warding file and form the cutout to clear the bolt. Easy does it, you can overcut pretty easy. There is a natural human tendency to cut your notch too wide and not deep enough, so watch out for that. When you need to take split nuts all the way off, be sure to mark each one and keep them separated in envelopes or something, Each nut returning to each shaft and each pair going back into the same hole it came from. No crossing anything or you'll regret it. They are almost never interchangeable. In the case of a merely loose handle, you may need/want to engrave off the excess screw at the end, after tightening. Very slow with this so you don't damage the wood. Its very easy to slip. But if you don't hurry its not too hard to pare off a little soft brass. A tiny bit in a dremel will also work if you keep a good hold. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206835 | Mark Lovett Wells <mark@m...> | 2010‑08‑02 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
I don't have a lot of information to add, but I wanted to list two retail offerings to give Scott a chance to make fun of me. Christopher Schwarz (former? galoot) says the PINEEZ makes a good split nut driver. Haven't tried it. http://www.rosstools.com/ Our own Bad Axe recently started offering a variety of saw nuts: http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.html In The Mighty Wenzloff's saw kit, he gives instructions on how to make a split nut driver from a spade bit: http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits/Handsaw_kit_instructions2.pdf Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206841 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
CheekyGeek wrote: > I did find a reference to S&J > (listing what they produced and mentioning backsaws) being an > exhibitor at an 1851 "Great Exhibition" through Google Books: That's normally termed "*The* Great Exhibition", British confidence being what it was at the time ;-) BugBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206842 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
CheekyGeek wrote: > The whole book might be of some interest to Galoots, but not terribly > well illustrated. > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/32sb8qs > Full URL: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=lLgXAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA606&ots=c7QzjiSJZ-&dq=%2 2Spear%20%26%20Jackson%22%20backsaw%20site%3Abooks.google.com&pg=PA606#v=onepage &q&f=false (chuckle) Looks like spiffy yuppy tools aren't a new thing (from the catalogue e ntry): "Specimen of an American wedge axe, with solid steel edge, and French polished rosewod handle. BugBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206844 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the backsaw: http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4". The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2". Darren Addy Kearney, NE -- Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206849 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2010‑08‑03 | RE: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the backsaw: END SNIP +++++++ To me, in view of the wear and tear on the nuts and the obvious work that saw has seen, the condition of the horns is quite remarkable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206845 | Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> | 2010‑08‑03 | RE: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Ouch! Looks like you wouldn't be the first to try to tighten those nuts. -T > Date: Tue=2C 3 Aug 2010 10:25:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear & > Jackson split nuts backsaw question From: cheekygeek@g... To: > oldtools@r... >> For those that are interested=2C or might be able to date the >> saw a bit > better if you had a look at it=2C I've uploaded some quick snaps of > the backsaw: >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear- >> >> Jackson/2.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg http://www.afew chase.com/Spear- >> Jackson/4.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg The length >> of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4". > The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2". >> Darren Addy > Kearney=2C NE --> Nothing is sure=2C except Death and Pentaxes. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------ |
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206847 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Agreed- I'd give it a shot and tighten them up a bit. Then use the linseed oil on the handle to see if it will regain some more grip on the blade and spine. It looks like an earlier saw- it has that pronounced hook on the top which usually means mid-1800s, though with S&J that might be different. It definitely pre-dates the backsaws in the 1915 catalog I have. Nice saw! Josh On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Tom Dugan wrote: > > Ouch! Looks like you wouldn't be the first to try to tighten those > nuts. > > -T > >> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:25:37 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question >> From: cheekygeek@g... >> To: oldtools@r... >> >> For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit >> better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the >> backsaw: >> >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg >> >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg >> >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg >> >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg >> >> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg >> >> The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4". >> The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2". >> >> Darren Addy >> Kearney, NE >> -- >> Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206858 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg Good closeup D!!! See what I meant?? Somebody tightened this one up with a driver whose notch was cut too wide and all they could grab were the ends of the slot. Doesn't look like the blade fit the slot very good either. But if you ground a proper driver for this saw, I bet you could still tighten it up considerable. Obviously you can't take the nuts off unless you at first dressed off the protruding, and now peined, screw ends. I would try to avoid taking them off anyway, but I bet they'd snug up some. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206857 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Thanks for the close-ups!. Interesting to see how damaged the slots are already, and how the thewood overhangs the heads of the bolts. This helps make clear what sort of damage to expect if the thing is tightened, loosened or removed. Don Calgary "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." -Pablo Picasso On 8/3/2010 9:25 AM, CheekyGeek wrote: > For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit > better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the > backsaw: > > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg > > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg > > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg > > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg > > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg > > The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4". > The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2". > > Darren Addy > Kearney, NE > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206860 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 2, 2010, at 5:53 PM, scott grandstaff wrote: > You can't even make a single driver to fit all saw screws. > They make different sized slots on you! > You'll need several if you work on saws much at all. I ground and filed a driver last night, and I found that I have different sized slots on the same saw (maybe due to a replacement; pre-1920 D8). When I made the blade to fit the thinnest slot on that saw, it was too sloppy in the rest, just as you say. So even if you have one saw,you might want more than one driver! -- Adam Port Angeles, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206862 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Yeah----but... Hang onto the thin one because you will find more of those screws too. On your second one already?? Way to go Adam! It won't take too many more! yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206840 | "John Manners" <jmanners@p...> | 2010‑08‑03 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
I agree with everything Tony B says regarding split nuts. They are better left alone. If the handle is loose it is usually easily tightened by the liberal application of a few coats of raw linseed oil. Even if split nuts could be removed without disaster, my advice would be the same as it is unlikely, with the handle shrunk, that they could be tightened to provide a firm grip on the handle before they bottomed out. Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ----- Original Message ----- From: |
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206869 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2010‑08‑04 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
scott grandstaff wrote: > http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg > > Good closeup D!!! > See what I meant?? > Somebody tightened this one up with a driver whose notch was cut too > wide and all they could grab were the ends of the slot. > Doesn't look like the blade fit the slot very good either. > > But if you ground a proper driver for this saw, I bet you could still > tighten it up considerable. I'll just repeat my advice to tighten the HANDLE with a clamp or two, and then run up the nut. Do *NOT* use an old split nut to perform the tightening of the handle. As has been mentioned in the thread already, the threads are small (and not very well cut) and the brass soft. BugBeae ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206878 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2010‑08‑04 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
On Aug 3, 2010, at 3:43 PM, scott grandstaff wrote: > Yeah----but... > Hang onto the thin one because you will find more of those screws too. > On your second one already?? Way to go Adam! Nope, only one...I just thinned it out, so now I have to make another. I forgot to put a scale in the photo, but the blade is 1/2" wide. http://gallery.me.com/amaxwell/100118 Having no lathe, I shaped a piece of cocobolo into a squarish handle (I'm part Scandinavian, after all) using saw, rasp, and files. I then filed a compression nut into a roundish ferrule and epoxied the blade into a slot. Epoxy made up for the sloppy fit of the nut, also. -- Adam Port Angeles, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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206870 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2010‑08‑04 | Re: Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question |
Hi Josh, Darren et al, Spear and Jackson are one of the very few Sheffield sawmakers that have survived for such a long time, that in itself makes dating very difficult to be precise, the easiest ones to date are the saw makers that were only in business for a few years, that makes it easier. With Spear and Jackson, it's not known with any certainty exactly when they started making saws but most likely it was late 1790's early 1800's. And the are still there today in 2010, albeit rubbery handles and space age styling. So the definitive answer for dating your saw is somewhere between 1800 and 2010... :-) This can be narrowed somewhat by guesswork and looking at the style... Label Screws tended to become more popular later in the 1800's I think the first instances were around the 1840's or therabouts, so we can be fairly confident it's probably after the 1840's The design doesn't appear in the 1915 catalog, and although not definitive proof, that would very indicate a pre 1915 date. I had a look at a few Spear and Jackson saws I have and making some guesses. Towards the latter half of the 1800's the stamps on the back tend to become more wordy and elaborate. Less stamps usually means earlier. I can only make out "Warranted" and "Cast Steel" in addition the the S&J mark. The sharpness of the hook, the overall shape and look of the handle looks earlier than 1900... Taking it all into account and having a wild guess, I would think it's pre 1900, maybe as early as the 1860's For what it's worth, Spear and Jackson sponsored the publication of a book in 1960 called "The Story of the Saw" to mark what they called their 200th anniversary, which would imply they started making saws in 1760. I think this is a bit of marketting exaggeration. Referring to Simon Barley's work on the subject, the early history of Spear and Jackson can be mostly reconstructed The following is mostly quoting from Simon Barley's research.... The precursor firm was Love and Spear (ok, I'm ignoring Love and Manson's steel making partnership formed in 1764) Love was a steel maker and a partnership was formed in 1769 with Alexander Spear, a wealthy merchant from Wakefield, to make steel, there are no records of them having made saws. Love died in 1783 and Alexander Spear probably around 1805, later that year a partnership was formed of John Spear (Alexander's Nephew) William Caldwell, William Barker and Samuel Johnson, who had been "for several years past partners with Alexander Spear making saws" The partnership agreement was renewed for 3 months, after which a proper dissolution of the old partnership would be drawn up. The implication here is that Samuel Johnson was making saws for at least a few years prior to 1805... So 1800 seems a more likely date for the earliest saws than does 1760 :-) By 1814 Samuel Jackson was taken on as an apprentice, and sometime before 1825 as a partner. Spear and Jackson was born.. The US market was a major customer as early as 1828-9 a ledger from that year shows that some 19% of their total production was exported to the USA. Regards Ray > It looks like an earlier saw- it has that pronounced hook on the top > which usually means mid-1800s, though with S&J that might be > different. It definitely pre-dates the backsaws in the 1915 catalog I > have. > > Nice saw! > > Josh > |
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