Greetings Assembled,
Went to an outdoor estate antique sale just outside of town this
weekend. Two big tents set up, some stuff on hay wagons, in a barn and
garage. I had hopes of finding something of interest, but it wasn't
looking good. The stuff that was there was priced higher than an
antique mall along the interstate and it wasn't looking like a manly
tool to be found. Then I spied two or three saws on one of the wagons
and made a beeline. There I found a Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw
(closed handle) in good shape. Turned it over and was surprised to see
split nuts, something I haven't seen in a coon's age. It was priced at
$2 and everything was 10% off on Sat. (That is to say within my
alloted discretionary income, if only just).

I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some
Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts
between 1850-1860. Can anyone confirm that, or is it all wet? That
would be a pretty stinkin' old tool to find in Nebraska, considering
we became a State in 1867. Either way, I was pretty delighted with the
find. The teeth are in excellent condition and straight as can be.

In searching through the archives I found a post by Pete Taran asking
someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as odds are that
it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said for the S&J?

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
-- 
Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, this post is a further example of why I MUST continue to hang out
with you guys!!!! MOST Fabulous insight, and timely, too. This has
halted my planes to do a little rehab on an old but needy saw with
split nuts.

Many, many thanks...

Archie

--- On Mon, 8/2/10, dynnyrne@n...t.au  wrote:

> From: dynnyrne@n...u  Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear &
> Jackson split nuts backsaw question To: "oldtools oldtools"
>  Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 1:00 AM
> Friends,
>
> Darren asked re his keenly priced Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw
>
> > In searching through the archives I found a post by
> Pete Taran asking
> > someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as
> odds are that
> > it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said
> for the S&J?
>
> Hi Harrison,
>
> Don't often get a chance to respond to you!=A0
>
> I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J.=A0 Before I knew
> better I had a few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old
> split nuts on old saws.=A0 I don't do it any more.=A0 I either pack
> the handle slot, or live with the handle being a little loose or put
> the saw in the till and reflect on how maybe the loose handle is the
> reason it was still there for me to find.
>
> My experiences were as follows:
>
> Old yellow metal bolts and split nuts are usually (if not invariably)
> seized into the wood of the handle.=A0 I guess that as the handle has
> dried out it has shrunk. Or the handle was finished before assembly
> and the old finish coat has hold of the head or the nut or the shank
> or all three.
>
> If the bolts and nuts aren't seized to the handle one or more will be
> corroded to each other
>
> Split nut bolts are made out of soft and weak metal and the bolt shank
> is small in diameter compared to the bolt and nut head diameter
> (sometimes even a square section)ie extra weak.
>
> That in turn leads to the discovery that there are as many nut and
> bolt sizes as there are saw makers, and few if any are
> interchangeable, even within different saws by the same maker.
>
> My experiences have ended in frustration with one or more of the
> following: broken bolt shank or chipped handle (chip lifted out by nut
> or bolt head).
>
> The one occasion I managed to get everything apart without tears I
> found it impossible to get everything back together with the bolt and
> nut sitting flush and flat.
>
>
> So, for what its worth my advice is that you leave the split nuts well
> alone, unless they are loose in the handle and the nuts are loose on
> the bolts.=A0 If you decide to try and tighten them go gently, its
> easier to break the bolt shank or strip the thread than it is to draw
> in the handle cheeks.
>
> My experiences wasn't expensive to gain, but it was immensely
> frustrating in the gaining and caused me considerable grief and
> regret.
>
> YMMV, but as Mr Eastwood was wont to ask: "You feeling lucky?"
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony B Hobart, Tasmania
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ: http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r... http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> GG

I undoubtedly have this wrong, but I think that Disston invented the  
saw nut as we know it now in 1875, so any Disston with split nuts is   
older than that, but from other makers could be younger too.  Imagine  
the confusion a hundred years from now when 22nd century gilutes come  
across a "modern" split nut saw.
>
> I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some
> Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts
> between 1850-1860.

Ed Minch

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the replies (and for remembering Harrison). The play in the
handle is no more than 1/16" so that would not be my primary reason
even thinking about taking it apart (I won't now). I was thinking in
terms of doing a nicer restoration. I'll put up a couple photos later,
but there is probably nothing terribly remarkable about its
appearance, in its current state, and I'd like to do more to it one
day.

Ed brings up a good point about future historians. Forget FUTURE
historians and look at the problem we have right now! I think it
outlines one of the dangers of relying on Google/the internet to find
information. Sure you can find good information, but let's say that
somebody confused Disston and S&J and posted somewhere that S&J
stopped using split nuts between 1850-1860. Google now indexes it
where someone finds it and repeats it later, where Google indexes it.
The more times the false information appears the more likely it is to
get cited as an authoritative bit of information (again), when it may
not be true at all.

Seems strange to me that it is hard to find historical information on
Spear & Jackson. I figgered there'd be a web site devoted to them or
something. Found the "official" company web site, but not a lot on the
history/historical tools. Certainly  nothing like has been done with
Disston (probably because they were an American company).

Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a link to Pete Taran's original post on the subject (at least
the original one I referred to):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtools/message/64570

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(snip)
> I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J. Before I knew better
> I had a> few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old split
> nuts on old saws. I> don't do it any more. I either pack the handle
> slot=2C or live with the handle> being a little loose or put the saw
> in the till and reflect on how maybe the> loose handle is the reason
> it was still there for me to find.
(un-snip)

OK=2C so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts=2C what would
you use a split nut driver bit for?

-Ben enquiring minds want to know
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------

On 8/2/2010 10:57 AM, CheekyGeek wrote:
> This forum post makes me think my saw is not so terribly old as I
> would have liked to think: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?s-
> =040b6c6b1d04b2162843c5a41ff363b5&p=1318430&postcountWell Heck, we all
> know Ray G is not a knowledgeable source when it comes
to saws......................

OK, not really, I believe he's up there near the pedestals holding Mr
Taran (VintageSaws) and Mr von Sneidern (DisstonianInstitute) when it
comes to saw knowledge

And WKfinetools is Wiktor Kuc's site, a repository for some list
articles.

--
Kirk Eppler in HMB, doing quality control with a digital caliper, and
sweating 0.05mm changes. Someone's not going to be happy with me, but
they are 3mm+ off. But at least good music is coming out of the PC
today. Pharmaceutical and Packaging Engineering

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joshua Clark wrote:
> As far as maintenance goes.. If a saw has absolutely virgin split nuts 
> and a loose handle, I don't try to tighten them. When the handles were 
> finished the nuts were filed flat, leaving a nice fit and finish. This 
> also reduces the depth of the slots making them hard to grip with a 
> driver. If you do manage to turn the nuts without caming out, the 
> screw is never likely to be flush with the handle again, and it will 
> look monkeyed with. Instead, use a very thin shim or better yet, try 
> to add some very thin oil to the slot in the handle. Sometimes this 
> will make it swell enough to regain a good grip on the saw plate and 
> spine.
>
> If the saw nuts have been tightened already, then there's no harm in 
> trying to do it again. I use a brace with a split nut bit to make sure 
> I have a good grip and enough torque. Some screws will break off, 
> others may blow-out the wood surrounding the nut if you aren't 
> careful, so go slow. It's good to have lots and lots of spare split nuts.
>
> Earlier this year I sold a nice mid-1800s split nut backsaw to a 
> Galoot. Before shipping it I made sure the handle was tight. When he 
> received it a week later he mentioned that the handle was too loose to 
> use and sent it back. I received the saw and sure enough, the handle 
> was loose. I threw it in my repair pile and didn't think about it 
> again until a few weeks later. When I picked it up again the handle 
> was tight as could be. The difference in humidity between my shop and 
> his led to the handle shrinking and loosing its grip on the blade. A 
> little linseed oil fixed this problem for good.
Dang good information Josh, thanks for sharing. 

I've tried the wooden clamp with a  hole in it to try to squeeze the 
cheeks to encourage the nut to tighten, and that didn't help either on 
the loose handled one I have.

-- 
Kirk Eppler
Pharmaceutical and Packaging Engineering
eppler.kirk@g...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Very good point made. Even having pictures won't necessary be enough
> supporting documentation. What would be sufficient to have a statement
> be verifiable? I know the stuff on the OldTools list is peer reviewed.
> Maybe that is the benchmark.

Well, for dating stuff I think it all goes back to the ephemera. If we
have a range of printed catalogs or advertisements we can note when
certain features changed and then come up with authoritative "type
studies". Somebody just has to have access to a good collection of
ephemera and a particular question that they want to investigate, along
with the desire to share what they find with others (through an article,
web page, or mailing list post). That's what's always been great about
the Porch.

Even the official Spear & Jackson web site says they don't know much
about their company prior to 1889. I did find a reference to S&J
(listing what they produced and mentioning backsaws) being an exhibitor
at an 1851 "Great Exhibition" through Google Books: http://www.pixelsmithy.com/i
mg/spear-and-jackson-
1851.png The whole book might be of some interest to Galoots, but not
terribly well illustrated. TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/32sb8qs Full URL:
http://books.google.com/books?id=lLgXAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA606&ots=c7QzjiSJZ-
&dq=%22Spear%20%26%20Jackson%22%20backsaw%20site%3Abooks.google.com&pg=-
PA606#v=onepage&q&f=false

This forum post makes me think my saw is not so terribly old as I would
have liked to think: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?s=040b6c6-
b1d04b2162843c5a41ff363b5&p=1318430&postcount Darren Addy Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:34 AM, CheekyGeek wrote:

>> >> OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what would you use 
a split nut driver bit for?
>> 
> And, of course, Lie Nielsen would love to sell you some:
> > http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lie-nielsensplitnutdriverfordovetailsawnu
t.aspx

Of course :).  I suspect they sell this because they're also making new saws wit
h split nuts.  According to their site, any L-N saw with an open handle has spli
t nuts, so evidently it's safe to tighten them.  This thread makes split nuts so
und like an odd choice, though.

The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by their non-s
plit saw nut driver:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR#

I keep using the wrong screwdriver on saw nuts, just because I'm lazy (I don't h
ave one with a wide enough blade, and I haven't looked hard enough for one that 
I can modify).  Maybe I should look for scrap steel to make one...my putty knife
 seems about the right thickness.

Adam
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ed muses...
> Another thing that can be used for dating is the stamp versus etch.
> =A0I can't find it right now, but I remember seeing that Disston
> started etching just after the civil war, so if your Disston is
> stamped or etched with the name on the blade, then you have a clue.
> =A0I wonder if there is a general date when the industry did this?
> =A0And why the change?? =A0There are probably other features that can
> help date a saw - handle shape??Horn shape?? number of nuts?? (could
> never match this list) =A0How much did the industry follow the
> leader?? When did Disston become the leader??

We're drifting a bit here, but I'll go with it...
:)
Good article on the transition from Sheffield being the epicenter of
handsaws (prior to 1850) and transitioning to America (and Disston):
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pbaker/amBacksaw/amBacksaw1.asp

Also a great article on the U.S. Patents improving the saw nuts &
Medallions: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pbaker/medallions-
castStamp/medallions-castStamp-1.asp I'm afraid that I don't know whose
site it is, but it is great (and I'm sure it is someone on the Porch.
Looks like Mr. Grandstaff has contributed there). I have to believe
these have been pointed to and discussed on the Porch before, but I was
away for a good while.

Darren Addy Kearney, NE

--Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what would you
> use a split nut driver bit for?
>
> -Ben enquiring minds want to know

Stated purpose: "In the 19th century a standard set of 36 brace bits
included a forked turnscrew bit - which was used for tightening split
saw nuts. It was an important bit to the carpenter because with changes
in weather it was (and is) not unusual for a handle to loosen. So having
a standard bit to tighten it up made for good sense and much more
satisfying sawing. "

Source: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Sessio-
n_ID=08b3a1e958302021d27cd9a5a48d4361&Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&n-
extpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogIDwhich also includes a scan from a
1908 Tyzak catalogue (as the Brits spell it).

MAKE magazine had a reader contribute one they made themselves:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/06/homemade_split_nut_driver.html

(Looks suspiciously similar to Grandstaff Quality)

And, of course, Lie Nielsen would love to sell you some: http://www.highlandwood
working.com/lie-
nielsensplitnutdriverfordovetailsawnut.aspx
: )

Darren Addy Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Snip

The more times the false information appears the more likely it is to
get cited as an authoritative bit of information (again), when it may
not be true at all.

Unsnip

Very good point made. Even having pictures won't necessary be enough
supporting documentation.What would be sufficient to have a statement be
verifiable? I know the stuff on the OldTools list is peer reviewed.
Maybe that is the benchmark.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> MAKE magazine had a reader contribute one they made themselves:
> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/06/homemade_split_nut_driver.html
> (Looks suspiciously similar to Grandstaff Quality)

Upon further review, I'd guess that "Funky Space Cowboy" would
indicate that the maker was our own "Josh, the Funky Space Cowboy".
Yeah, I'm a regular Sherlock Holmes, I am.

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:57 PM, CheekyGeek wrote:

> If we
> have a range of printed catalogs or advertisements we can note when
> certain features changed and then come up with authoritative "type
> studies".

Another thing that can be used for dating is the stamp versus etch.  I  
can't find it right now, but I remember seeing that Disston started  
etching just after the civil war, so if your Disston is stamped or  
etched with the name on the blade, then you have a clue.  I wonder if  
there is a general date when the industry did this?  And why the  
change??  There are probably other features that can help date a saw -  
handle shape??Horn shape?? number of nuts?? (could never match this  
list)  How much did the industry follow the leader?? When did Disston  
become the leader??

Ed Minch

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Joshua Clark  wrote:
>
> > The difference in humidity between my shop and his led to the handle shrinki
ng and loosing its grip on the blade. A little linseed oil fixed this problem fo
r good.

Excellent, excellent point.

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

::-----Original Message-----
::From: oldtools-bounces@r... 
::[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of 
::Ben Belzer
::Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:01 PM
::To: dynnyrne@n...; oldtools@r...
::Subject: RE: [OldTools] Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question

::OK, so if you're not supposed to mess with split nuts, what 
::would you use a split nut driver bit for?

Mucking up your split nut saws.

- Bill T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm no expert when it comes to saw nuts. This is the way I've come to  
understand it:

Early split nuts were cast in one piece. Many early handsaws including  
all pre-1876 Disstons have this type of split nut.

The first improvement was Washburn's 1867 patent for improved split  
nuts. These were wrought and assembled from two pieces of material. I  
don't think Disston ever used this patent, rather, they continued to  
cast their saw screws in one piece. Some early Peace saws have this  
type of saw screw.

The second improvement was Munger's 1869 patent for two-piece split  
nut type saw screws. Again, I don't think Disston used these. I have  
several Peace saws with this type of saw screw.

In 1876 Disston patented an improved saw screw that was cast in one  
piece and used a screw head rather than a split nut. I don't think  
other saw maker's used this patent. I don't think Disston cast the  
patent dates into these saw nuts.

The final improvement was Glover's 1887 patent for an improved saw  
screw- the one we see on most post-1900 saws. It is wrought rather  
than cast, in one piece making it strong and cheap. Soon, all saw  
makers adopted it.

Some sawmakers continued to use split nuts well after the Glover's  
patent improved nuts we widely adopted. Peace, for example, used split  
nuts on his lower-end models like the Darlington, until at least as  
late as 1895, perhaps longer. Spear and Jackson used split nuts on  
some low-end models until at least 1915 (date based on a description  
found in a S&J catalog reprint).  I assume this was due to cost- the  
new Munger patent screws must have been more expensive, even if they  
were a superior product.

As far as maintenance goes.. If a saw has absolutely virgin split nuts  
and a loose handle, I don't try to tighten them. When the handles were  
finished the nuts were filed flat, leaving a nice fit and finish. This  
also reduces the depth of the slots making them hard to grip with a  
driver. If you do manage to turn the nuts without caming out, the  
screw is never likely to be flush with the handle again, and it will  
look monkeyed with. Instead, use a very thin shim or better yet, try  
to add some very thin oil to the slot in the handle. Sometimes this  
will make it swell enough to regain a good grip on the saw plate and  
spine.

If the saw nuts have been tightened already, then there's no harm in  
trying to do it again. I use a brace with a split nut bit to make sure  
I have a good grip and enough torque. Some screws will break off,  
others may blow-out the wood surrounding the nut if you aren't  
careful, so go slow. It's good to have lots and lots of spare split  
nuts.

Earlier this year I sold a nice mid-1800s split nut backsaw to a  
Galoot. Before shipping it I made sure the handle was tight. When he  
received it a week later he mentioned that the handle was too loose to  
use and sent it back. I received the saw and sure enough, the handle  
was loose. I threw it in my repair pile and didn't think about it  
again until a few weeks later. When I picked it up again the handle  
was tight as could be. The difference in humidity between my shop and  
his led to the handle shrinking and loosing its grip on the blade. A  
little linseed oil fixed this problem for good.

Hope this helps,

Josh

On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Ed Minch wrote:

>
>>
>> GG
>
> I undoubtedly have this wrong, but I think that Disston invented the  
> saw nut as we know it now in 1875, so any Disston with split nuts  
> is  older than that, but from other makers could be younger too.   
> Imagine the confusion a hundred years from now when 22nd century  
> gilutes come across a "modern" split nut saw.
>>
>> I don't know much about Spear and Jackson, so I was doing some
>> Googling and found a reference that S&J stopped using split nuts
>> between 1850-1860.
>
> Ed Minch
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:

>> The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by
>> their non-split saw nut driver: http://www.lie-
>> nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR#

I am surprised that Scott hasn't jumped on this one yet, so I'll take a
shot at it. I mean, golly gee whiz, Batman! Only $285 for a set of 8
screwdrivers in a genuine leather pouch?!?! Plus shipping? How could you
possibly go wrong? I mean, you would probably use one of them at least
once a year. Or one screwdriver for only $25 to $30? Such a deal!

How about a piece of 3/8" or even 1/2" round stock that you heat the end
of and bash it with a good sized hammer, then grind and file it to the
proper shape, then add a handle, all for about a dollar? Need one for
split nuts? File a slot in the end.

Unlike Scott, I won't comment on the yuppies who buy this stuff. And,
YES! The price gags me too! But I guess if you have money to burn it
doesn't matter what you burn it with.

Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for that Tony. Bookmarking that page.
I can't speak for anybody else, but this has been one HECK of an
informative thread for me!
I love this place!

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Friends,

Darren asked re his keenly priced Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw

> In searching through the archives I found a post by Pete Taran asking
> someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as odds are that
> it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said for the S&J?

Hi Harrison,

Don't often get a chance to respond to you!  

I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J.  Before I knew better I had a 
few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old split nuts on old saws.  I 
don't do it any more.  I either pack the handle slot, or live with the handle 
being a little loose or put the saw in the till and reflect on how maybe the 
loose handle is the reason it was still there for me to find.

My experiences were as follows:

Old yellow metal bolts and split nuts are usually (if not invariably) seized 
into the wood of the handle.  I guess that as the handle has dried out it has 
shrunk. Or the handle was finished before assembly and the old finish coat has 
hold of the head or the nut or the shank or all three.

If the bolts and nuts aren't seized to the handle one or more will be corroded 
to each other

Split nut bolts are made out of soft and weak metal and the bolt shank is small 
in diameter compared to the bolt and nut head diameter (sometimes even a square 
section)ie extra weak.

That in turn leads to the discovery that there are as many nut and bolt sizes 
as there are saw makers, and few if any are interchangeable, even within 
different saws by the same maker.

My experiences have ended in frustration with one or more of the following: 
broken bolt shank or chipped handle (chip lifted out by nut or bolt head).

The one occasion I managed to get everything apart without tears I found it 
impossible to get everything back together with the bolt and nut sitting flush 
and flat. 

So, for what its worth my advice is that you leave the split nuts well alone, 
unless they are loose in the handle and the nuts are loose on the bolts.  If 
you decide to try and tighten them go gently, its easier to break the bolt 
shank or strip the thread than it is to draw in the handle cheeks.

My experiences wasn't expensive to gain, but it was immensely frustrating in 
the gaining and caused me considerable grief and regret.

YMMV, but as Mr Eastwood was wont to ask: "You feeling lucky?"

Regards,

Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania

------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au

------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 07:54 AM 8/2/2010, CheekyGeek wrote:

>Seems strange to me that it is hard to find historical information on
>Spear & Jackson. I figgered there'd be a web site devoted to them or
>something. Found the "official" company web site, but not a lot on the
>history/historical tools. Certainly  nothing like has been done with
>Disston (probably because they were an American company).

In the beginning there was John Spear who worked from  1814 - 1824

Then we head Spear, Jackson & Co  1825 - 1829 (as listed in the trade 
directories, then just Spear & Jackson 1830  - 1910,  followed 
by  Spear & Jackson, Ltd  1910   - 1985.

So much for the history as I have it here.   I would say that in all 
probability they didn't stop using split nuts on saws until at least 
the very end of the 19th century (late 1800's),

As far as restoring it goes, been there done that more than a few times.

http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/restoration/spears/spears.html

One thing to watch is that the brass on those screws tends to be very 
soft and is easily bent and or stripped.  If the blade has gotten 
rusted back inside the tote, some times that tightens up the holes in 
the blade which are fairly snug to start with.    I lay the tote over 
one of the dog holes in the bench with a piece of paper towel 
underneath, just in case the screw decides to fall out easily (rare 
but it beats having to go down with a flashlight in the mess under 
the bench.).  I tap them very carefully with the tip of a junk socket 
chisel handle till it gets up far enough to grab,

Now the heads on those things are nasty sharp.  I give them a few 
wraps with electrical tape before trying to get it with my 
fingers.  Some times they wlggle out, some times you have to unscrew 
them at least until it's clear of the blade.

As I am cleaning the blade I push a small round file though the holes 
in the blade a few times just to get rid of any crap in there.  Just 
enough that the screw will slide back through easily.

I haven't done one in a spell but that and the webpage should cover 
most of the gotcha's.

Tony

                         Olde River Hard Goods
                     http://www.oldetoolshop.com
                                           TSMusic
                http://www.myspace.com/tonyseomusic

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To back up my rant about the expensive screwdrivers, I just went out and
forged (in about 2 minutes) the end of the Perfect Handle screwdriver I
found last week, which I was planning to use as a donor for another
tool. I had put new scales on it this morning, then tossed it on the
pile of future projects.

After forging the end, I filed the end to go into ordinary saw nuts, but
with a few strokes of a file it could easily be modified to use on split
nuts. I did not harden the end as that is not necessary for saw nuts. In
fact I recently broke one that was hardened, but not correctly tempered.

I used some of the black acacia wood I have been hoarding for the
scales. It's a decent looking screwdriver, and it only cost a dollar. So
much for the $30 screwdrivers, because I like mine better. First two
pictures. Take a look:

http://picasaweb.google.com/oldmillrat/OLdToolFinds#

The old Millrat in Riverside CA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 3:17 PM, James Thompson wrote:

> On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
> 
>> >> The price always causes me to choke, but I admit to being tempted by their
 non-split saw nut driver:
>> 
>> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR#
> 
> > I am surprised that Scott hasn't jumped on this one yet, so I'll take a shot
 at it. 

I knew someone couldn't pass up a troll like that, but I was expecting Scott to 
be first :).

> > I mean, golly gee whiz, Batman! Only $285 for a set of 8 screwdrivers in a g
enuine leather pouch?!?! Plus shipping? How could you possibly go wrong? I mean,
 you would probably use one of them at least once a year. Or one screwdriver for
 only $25 to $30? Such a deal!
> 
> > How about a piece of 3/8" or even 1/2" round stock that you heat the end of 
and bash it with a good sized hammer, then grind and file it to the proper shape
, then add a handle, all for about a dollar? Need one for split nuts? File a slo
t in the end.

Google also found this thread on the list:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=111364#message

Like the poster there, I haven't been able to find a wide, flat blade screwdrive
r to modify at the local hardware stores.

The great thing about this list is that I now have multiple options, thanks to T
om Dugan, you, and the archives, any of which is more satisfying than coughing u
p $25 for a screwdriver.  Of course, I'll have to pick up some flat or round sto
ck on the way home from work, and I don't have anything to heat it with or bash 
it against.

> > Unlike Scott, I won't comment on the yuppies who buy this stuff. And, YES! T
he price gags me too! But I guess if you have money to burn it doesn't matter wh
at you burn it with.

I don't think of myself as a yuppie; heck, my wife and I have four kids and mine
 is the single income.  An old tool off eBay is usually my first choice, but I h
ave no qualms about buying new tools if I need something to finish a project; it
's a tradeoff of burning money or time (on the computer or driving around).

There are other factors also, like never having made a screwdriver handle.  I di
dn't know you could use brass rod to make a rivet, and I'd never seen a Perfect 
Handle until looking at some of the pictures you posted recently.  So thanks for
 that and the articles on wkfinetools!

-- 
Adam

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:

The great thing about this list is that I now have multiple options,
thanks to Tom Dugan, you, and the archives, any of which is more
satisfying than coughing up $25 for a screwdriver. Of course, I'll have
to pick up some flat or round stock on the way home from work, and I
don't have anything to heat it with or bash it against.

> There are other factors also, like never having made a screwdriver
> handle. I didn't know you could use brass rod to make a rivet, and I'd
> never seen a Perfect Handle until looking at some of the pictures you
> posted recently. So thanks for that and the articles on wkfinetools!

You don't have to have any means of heating or forging round stock to
make a screwdriver. You can rough shape the end with a hacksaw, then
file it to the desired shape. Start with round stock the same diameter
as the sawnut.

Handles? We have seen handles made of home grown, range fed tree limbs,
and they work just fine. Maybe they aren't as pretty as some, but they
do work. Make a tool! It's habit forming. :>)

Jim Thompson, the old Millrat in Riverside, CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adam writes:
>> The price always causes me to choke=2C but I admit to being tempted
>> by their non-split saw nut driver: http://www.lie-
>> nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=SCR# I keep using the wrong screwdriver
>> on saw nuts=2C just because I'm lazy (I don't have one with a wide
>> enough blade=2C and I haven't looked hard enough for one that I can
>> modify). Maybe I should look for scrap steel to make one...my putty
>> knife seems about the right thickness. Adam
> Port Angeles=2C WA
>
I made one in about an hour using a scrap of 1/2 X 1/16 steel=2C
probably bought at the Borg. Took a hunk 6 or 7 inches long. The notch
was going to be ground out. Seemed simple enough=2C but once Istarted I
realized it would take forever=2C so I drilled a hole about 3/8" down
from the end then hacksawed the little center piece out.

I planned to harden it=2C but then realized that the soft metal I
wasusing it on would much prefer a softer steel=2C so not only do you
notneed to go that route=2C I think it would do more harm than good.

I made an Imperfect Handle(TM) for it. Took a chunk of cherry=2C rough
shaped it=2C riveted it to the steel using a couple of 1/16" brass rod
pieces (again from the local hardware store)=2C then rasped and filed
until Close Enough. The end needed ground a tad thinner until it was
snug in the slot=2C and Bob's yer uncle. Worked perfectly.

-T

                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------

  Man oh Man
  Teach me to get an ear infection and be indisposed for a few hours! 
Geeeeeeze

  Ok split nuts are like any other saw screw. They cannot be driven with 
an ordinary screwdriver!!
Split nuts are obvious but regular saw screws are just as finicky.
   You can't even make a single driver to fit all saw screws.
  They make different sized slots on you!
   You'll need several if you work on saws much at all.

  So you have to grind a bit to fit the saw. You get lucky and it will 
fit more screws too.
  You won't need dozens but you'll need several by the end.

  I am not in the mood to make fun of fools who would spend a lot of 
money on a "made 500 in an hour" factory screwdriver, no matter how 
pretty the catalog is printed.  Its factory work.

    But I am certainly in the mood to make fun of dolts who are so quick 
to post retail sucker bait in any public forum!?!?
  Whats up with that??
  2 minutes on the board and somebody can't want to post the retail 
offering any moron can find in 45 seconds with their eyes closed??
You thought you'd inform us the sky is blue and in what direction you 
can find it too, I suppose?

  Anyway, you don't even need a special screwdriver donor for making a 
driver for saw screws. (yes, I've made some anyway, hee hheheh)

  But, you can pick any regular excess driver that is nearly large enough.
  Heat up the tip bright red and pound it out flatter/wider.
   No real blacksmith skill or tools required.  Any hammer and any heavy 
piece of steel for an anvil.
  The bit has to be considerably thinner than a normal screwdriver to 
fit to a saw screw anyway.
  Grind from there.

   Or just take an even larger screwdriver and grind the tip back until 
its wide enough, and then start grinding it thinner from there.

  The trick with all of them is the same as every gunsmith lives by.
The driver has to fit the slot!
    Actually fit the slot.
No factory made driver is ever going to actually fit, whatever you paid.
  Get over it and make your own.

    Take your time. Take a little off each side, dunking inbetween and 
sneak up on the fit.
   When you have the bit thin enough, take a warding file and form the 
cutout to clear the bolt. Easy does it, you can overcut pretty easy.
There is a natural human tendency to cut your notch too wide and not 
deep enough, so watch out for that.

  When you need to take split nuts all the way off, be sure to mark each 
one and keep them separated in envelopes or something,
   Each nut returning to each shaft and each pair going back into the 
same hole it came from.
   No crossing anything or you'll regret it.
  They are almost never interchangeable.

  In the case of a merely loose handle, you may need/want to engrave off 
the excess screw at the end, after tightening.

    Very slow with this so you don't damage the wood. Its very easy to 
slip.  But if you don't hurry its not too hard to pare off a little soft 
brass.
  A tiny bit in a dremel will also work if you keep a good hold.
   yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't have a lot of information to add, but I wanted to list two
retail offerings to give Scott a chance to make fun of me.

Christopher Schwarz (former? galoot) says the PINEEZ makes a good
split nut driver.  Haven't tried it.  http://www.rosstools.com/

Our own Bad Axe recently started offering a variety of saw nuts:
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.html

In The Mighty Wenzloff's saw kit, he gives instructions on how to make
a split nut driver from a spade bit:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits/Handsaw_kit_instructions2.pdf

Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------

CheekyGeek wrote:
> I did find a reference to S&J
> (listing what they produced and mentioning backsaws) being an
> exhibitor at an 1851 "Great Exhibition" through Google Books:

That's normally termed "*The* Great Exhibition", British confidence
being what it was at the time ;-)

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

CheekyGeek wrote:

> The whole book might be of some interest to Galoots, but not terribly
> well illustrated.
> TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/32sb8qs
> Full URL:
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=lLgXAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA606&ots=c7QzjiSJZ-&dq=%2
2Spear%20%26%20Jackson%22%20backsaw%20site%3Abooks.google.com&pg=PA606#v=onepage
&q&f=false

(chuckle) Looks like spiffy yuppy tools aren't a new thing (from the catalogue e
ntry):

"Specimen of an American wedge axe, with solid
steel edge, and French polished rosewod handle.

    BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit
better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the
backsaw:

http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg

http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg

http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg

http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg

http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg

The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4".
The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2".

Darren Addy
Kearney, NE
-- 
Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit
better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the
backsaw:

END SNIP

+++++++

To me, in view of the wear and tear on the nuts and the obvious work that
saw has seen, the condition of the horns is quite remarkable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ouch! Looks like you wouldn't be the first to try to tighten those nuts.

-T

> Date: Tue=2C 3 Aug 2010 10:25:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear &
> Jackson split nuts backsaw question From: cheekygeek@g... To:
> oldtools@r...
>> For those that are interested=2C or might be able to date the
>> saw a bit
> better if you had a look at it=2C I've uploaded some quick snaps of
> the backsaw:
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-
>> >> Jackson/2.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg http://www.afew
chase.com/Spear-
>> Jackson/4.jpg http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg The length
>> of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4".
> The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2".
>> Darren Addy
> Kearney=2C NE --> Nothing is sure=2C except Death and Pentaxes.

                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------

Agreed- I'd give it a shot and tighten them up a bit. Then use the  
linseed oil on the handle to see if it will regain some more grip on  
the blade and spine.

It looks like an earlier saw- it has that pronounced hook on the top  
which usually means mid-1800s, though with S&J that might be  
different. It definitely pre-dates the backsaws in the 1915 catalog I  
have.

Nice saw!

Josh

On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Tom Dugan wrote:

>
> Ouch! Looks like you wouldn't be the first to try to tighten those  
> nuts.
>
> -T
>
>> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:25:37 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question
>> From: cheekygeek@g...
>> To: oldtools@r...
>>
>> For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit
>> better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the
>> backsaw:
>>
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg
>>
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg
>>
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg
>>
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg
>>
>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg
>>
>> The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4".
>> The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2".
>>
>> Darren Addy
>> Kearney, NE
>> -- 
>> Nothing is sure, except Death and Pentaxes.
>
> 		 	   		   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

  http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg

   Good closeup D!!!
See what I meant??
Somebody tightened this one up with a driver whose notch was cut too 
wide and all they could grab were the ends of the slot.
Doesn't look like the blade fit the slot very good either.

  But if you ground a proper driver for this saw, I bet you could still 
tighten it up considerable.

  Obviously you can't take the nuts off unless you at first dressed off 
the protruding, and now peined, screw ends.
   I would try to avoid taking them off anyway, but I bet they'd snug up 
some.
  yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the close-ups!. Interesting to see how damaged the slots are 
already, and how the thewood overhangs the heads of the bolts. This 
helps make clear what sort of damage to expect if the thing is 
tightened, loosened or removed.

Don
Calgary

"I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do 
it." -Pablo Picasso

On 8/3/2010 9:25 AM, CheekyGeek wrote:
> For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit
> better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the
> backsaw:
>
> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg
>
> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg
>
> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg
>
> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg
>
> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg
>
> The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4".
> The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2".
>
> Darren Addy
> Kearney, NE
>    
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 2, 2010, at 5:53 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:

>  You can't even make a single driver to fit all saw screws.
> They make different sized slots on you!
>  You'll need several if you work on saws much at all.

I ground and filed a driver last night, and I found that I 
have different sized slots on the same saw (maybe due to a
replacement; pre-1920 D8).  

When I made the blade to fit the thinnest slot on that saw,
it was too sloppy in the rest, just as you say.  So even if
you have one saw,you might want more than one driver!

-- 
Adam
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah----but...
  Hang onto the thin one because you will find more of those screws too.
On your second one already?? Way to go Adam!
  It won't take too many more!
    yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with everything Tony B says regarding split nuts.  They are 
better left alone.

If the handle is loose it is usually easily tightened by the liberal 
application of a few coats of raw linseed oil.  Even if split nuts could 
be removed without disaster, my advice would be the same as it is 
unlikely, with the handle shrunk, that they could be tightened to 
provide a firm grip on the handle before they bottomed out.

Regards from Brisbane,

John Manners

----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: "oldtools oldtools" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Spear & Jackson split nuts backsaw question

> Friends,
>
> Darren asked re his keenly priced Spear & Jackson 14" backsaw
>
>> In searching through the archives I found a post by Pete Taran asking
>> someone to not mess with their split-nutted Disston as odds are that
>> it wouldn't end well. I suppose the same can be said for the S&J?
>
> Hi Harrison,
>
> Don't often get a chance to respond to you!
>
> I won't limit my comments to Disston and/or S&J.  Before I knew better 
> I had a
> few experiences trying to remove and/or tighten old split nuts on old 
> saws.  I
> don't do it any more.  I either pack the handle slot, or live with the 
> handle
> being a little loose or put the saw in the till and reflect on how 
> maybe the
> loose handle is the reason it was still there for me to find.
>
> My experiences were as follows:
>
> Old yellow metal bolts and split nuts are usually (if not invariably) 
> seized
> into the wood of the handle.  I guess that as the handle has dried out 
> it has
> shrunk. Or the handle was finished before assembly and the old finish 
> coat has
> hold of the head or the nut or the shank or all three.
>
> If the bolts and nuts aren't seized to the handle one or more will be 
> corroded
> to each other
>
> Split nut bolts are made out of soft and weak metal and the bolt shank 
> is small
> in diameter compared to the bolt and nut head diameter (sometimes even 
> a square
> section)ie extra weak.
>
> That in turn leads to the discovery that there are as many nut and 
> bolt sizes
> as there are saw makers, and few if any are interchangeable, even 
> within
> different saws by the same maker.
>
> My experiences have ended in frustration with one or more of the 
> following:
> broken bolt shank or chipped handle (chip lifted out by nut or bolt 
> head).
>
> The one occasion I managed to get everything apart without tears I 
> found it
> impossible to get everything back together with the bolt and nut 
> sitting flush
> and flat.
>
>
> So, for what its worth my advice is that you leave the split nuts well 
> alone,
> unless they are loose in the handle and the nuts are loose on the 
> bolts.  If
> you decide to try and tighten them go gently, its easier to break the 
> bolt
> shank or strip the thread than it is to draw in the handle cheeks.
>
> My experiences wasn't expensive to gain, but it was immensely 
> frustrating in
> the gaining and caused me considerable grief and regret.
>
> YMMV, but as Mr Eastwood was wont to ask: "You feeling lucky?"
>
> Regards,
>
> Tony B
> Hobart, Tasmania
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

scott grandstaff wrote:
>  http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg
> 
>   Good closeup D!!!
> See what I meant??
> Somebody tightened this one up with a driver whose notch was cut too 
> wide and all they could grab were the ends of the slot.
> Doesn't look like the blade fit the slot very good either.
> 
>  But if you ground a proper driver for this saw, I bet you could still 
> tighten it up considerable.

I'll just repeat my advice to tighten the HANDLE
with a clamp or two, and then run up the nut.

Do *NOT* use an old split nut to perform
the tightening of the handle. As has been
mentioned in the thread already, the threads
are small (and not very well cut) and the brass soft.

   BugBeae
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 3, 2010, at 3:43 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:

> Yeah----but...
> Hang onto the thin one because you will find more of those screws too.
> On your second one already?? Way to go Adam!

Nope, only one...I just thinned it out, so now I have to make another.
I forgot to put a scale in the photo, but the blade is 1/2" wide.

http://gallery.me.com/amaxwell/100118

Having no lathe, I shaped a piece of cocobolo into a squarish
handle (I'm part Scandinavian, after all) using saw, rasp, and files.
I then filed a compression nut into a roundish ferrule and epoxied
the blade into a slot.  Epoxy made up for the sloppy fit of the nut,
also.

-- 
Adam
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Josh, Darren et al,

Spear and Jackson are one of the very few Sheffield sawmakers that have
survived for such a long time, that in itself makes dating very difficult
to be precise, the easiest ones to date are the saw makers that were only
in business for a few years, that makes it easier.  With Spear and
Jackson, it's not known with any certainty exactly when they started
making saws but most likely it was late 1790's early 1800's.  And the are
still there today in 2010, albeit rubbery handles and space age styling.

So the definitive answer for dating your saw is somewhere between 1800 and
2010... :-)  This can be narrowed somewhat by guesswork and looking at the
style...  Label Screws tended to become more popular later in the 1800's I
think the first instances were around the 1840's or therabouts, so we can
be fairly confident it's probably after the 1840's

The design doesn't appear in the 1915 catalog, and although not definitive
proof, that would very indicate a pre 1915 date.

I had a look at a few Spear and Jackson saws I have and making some guesses.

Towards the latter half of the 1800's the stamps on the back tend to
become more wordy and elaborate. Less stamps usually means earlier. I can
only make out "Warranted" and "Cast Steel" in addition the the S&J mark.

The sharpness of the hook, the overall shape and look of the handle looks
earlier than 1900...

Taking it all into account and having a wild guess, I would think it's pre
1900, maybe as early as the 1860's

For what it's worth, Spear and Jackson sponsored the publication of a book
in 1960 called "The Story of the Saw" to mark what they called their 200th
anniversary, which would imply they started making saws in 1760. I think
this is a bit of marketting exaggeration.  Referring to Simon Barley's
work on the subject, the early history of Spear and Jackson can be mostly
reconstructed

The following is mostly quoting from Simon Barley's research....

The precursor firm was Love and Spear (ok, I'm ignoring Love and Manson's
steel making partnership formed in 1764)

Love was a steel maker and a partnership was formed in 1769 with Alexander
Spear, a wealthy merchant from Wakefield, to make steel, there are no
records of them having made saws. Love died in 1783 and Alexander Spear
probably around 1805, later that year a partnership was formed of John
Spear (Alexander's Nephew) William Caldwell, William Barker and Samuel
Johnson, who had been "for several years past partners with Alexander
Spear making saws" The partnership agreement was renewed for 3 months,
after which a proper dissolution of the old partnership would be drawn up.

The implication here is that Samuel Johnson was making saws for at least a
few years prior to 1805... So 1800 seems a more likely date for the
earliest saws than does 1760 :-)

By 1814 Samuel Jackson was taken on as an apprentice, and sometime before
1825 as a partner.  Spear and Jackson was born..

The US market was a major customer as early as 1828-9 a ledger from that
year shows that some 19% of their total production was exported to the
USA.

Regards
Ray

> It looks like an earlier saw- it has that pronounced hook on the top
> which usually means mid-1800s, though with S&J that might be
> different. It definitely pre-dates the backsaws in the 1915 catalog I
> have.
>
> Nice saw!
>
> Josh
>

>>> For those that are interested, or might be able to date the saw a bit
>>> better if you had a look at it, I've uploaded some quick snaps of the
>>> backsaw:
>>>
>>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/1.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/2.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/3.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/4.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.afewchase.com/Spear-Jackson/5.jpg
>>>
>>> The length of the blade at the teeth is 14-3/4".
>>> The exposed top of the blade back is 14-1/2".
>>>
>>> Darren Addy
>>> Kearney, NE
>>> --

------------------------------------------------------------------------