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260541 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Delicate joinery |
Making a jewelry tray — 3/16th material. For the cross pieces I am planning to have them die into V-notches in the long pieces as I have seen in period furniture. Question is, what is the best way to make the incised V? I am thinking I will just mark and carve w/ a chisel, but if anyone has experience, knows a trick or knows what tool was used historically, I would love the input. Bill |
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260542 | "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Bill, I'm working (occasionally) on an 18th century shaving box with exactly the same challenge. My thought at this point is to make a deep knife line at the center point of the V, then use a shoulder or rabbet plane tipped on its edge at 45 degrees to take a couple of passes with the edge of the plane riding in the knife line, flip the work around and take a couple (or however many are needed) of passes to make the other side of the V. This idea came to me when watching Don McConnel's excellent DVD on making moulding. It looks like it would not be too difficult to control the angle and the depth of the V in this manner. I'd thought about the chisel route as well but using a plane seems like there would be more control. Cheers John "P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P. William Ghio wrote: Making a jewelry tray - 3/16th material. For the cross pieces I am planning to have them die into V-notches in the long pieces as I have seen in period furniture. Question is, what is the best way to make the incised V? I am thinking I will just mark and carve w/ a chisel, but if anyone has experience, knows a trick or knows what tool was used historically, I would love the input. |
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260543 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
> On Nov 28, 2016, at 12:50 PM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) |
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260544 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Bill You could add a small ramp that you can switch from left to right to guide the blade to the right spot Ed Minch |
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260545 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
The center cut is rather important -- just like in chip carving. With a little care, a veiner chisel should do the trick -- one of those tiny carver's veiners. But I could swear that I have a v-groove plane around here somewhere. Mike in Woodland |
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260547 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Re Veiner to make a V groove Weird, but I was trying to do just that on the weekend. Man, this group! My veiners are very sharp, and my practice cuts in cherry were not even or straight, and I quickly gave up trying with that technique as a bad idea. So I figured I'd try a straight knife with a fairly thin freshly sharpened blade. I used my marking knife. A straight steel rule and a sharp knife was good. That was much more accurate for me. Practice on a bit of scrap so you can figure out how much pressure you need (I was going cross grain). Would be more difficult with the grain I suppose. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio Ps, to sharpen, I set up a stick end up in my vice at the correct height to get the bevel I want on my knife. Lay the knife flat on the end grain blade barely over the edge. I use one of those little diamond paddles, resting the paddle heel on the bench as I slide the small diamond plate along the blade. You'll get a nice smooth even bevel on the blade. Much more accurate than trying to slide your little knife at 11 degrees or whatever. If you don't have one a set of these wonderful EZ Lap paddles (a great present), stick some very fine wet or dry sand paper to a small stick with double sided tape ( what I used to do before I got the paddles). By the way, I find more uses for these things all the time. I've had mine for a couple years now, well used, and they still work great even though I use them each week. |
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260548 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
> On Nov 28, 2016, at 1:11 PM, William Ghio |
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260551 | RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> | 2016‑11‑28 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Howdy, Bill! Working with material that thin, I would think that a very sharp chisel led into a knife edge at the center and guided by a 45° block would be the answer. Your V-notch, following a rule of thirds, would have to leave 1/16" uncut. That's mighty fine work that I wouldn't attempt with my clumsy skills, but I have no doubt that you will pull it off. Please take pics and post them when you tell us how you did it. Bob Hutchins Temple, TX, USA |
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260549 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
On 2016-11-28 3:26 PM, William Ghio wrote: > OK, I played w/ some 1/4” poplar and I think the chisel is the way to go. I feel I have more control — easier to get an even facet — with the chisel. W/ the shoulder plane you have to work from both sides to the center to keep from breaking out the far edge. My material is 1 1/8” wide and a wide chisel can take it all in one go. I haven’t tried Ed’s suggestion of a ramp but that may be useful too. The V gouge was the worst choice. I found it very hard (i.e., did not happen) to get an even vee. > > I have cut sticks for the sides @ 1/4 from a mahogany plank, the interior partitions will be the 3/16th stuff. I am making two trays, fortunately to go into an already existing drawer, so no cabinet making involved. But about 90 joints to go…. Interesting to hear your experience. Did you make a center-line stop cut before the angled cuts? Don -- Let's all get normal at the luau - 'Frizz' Fuller |
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260552 | "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Bill, I'm using this mid-19th century shaving box as a jumping off point for my late 18th century shaving box. You can see that the dividers are quite thin, and every intersection is a V groove. Looking at the joints in this box, I would say the grooves are cut by a chisel, and the mating ends of the dividers by a chisel or knife. Neither are perfect. http://galootcentral.com/component/option,com_copperminevis/Itemid,2/pl ace,displayimage/album,682/pos,3/">http://galootcentral.com/component/option,com _copperminevis/Itemid,2/place,displayimage/album,682/pos,3/ Cheers, John John M. Johnston jmjhnstn@m... “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P. |
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260553 | Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Sent from my iPad > On Nov 28, 2016, at 7:25 PM, Don Schwartz |
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260554 | Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Sent from my iPad > On Nov 28, 2016, at 7:55 PM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) |
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260559 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Michael Blair wrote: > The center cut is rather important -- just like in chip carving. With a > little care, a veiner chisel should do the trick -- one of those tiny > carver's veiners. But I could swear that I have a v-groove plane around > here somewhere. I *do* have a tiny v-groove plane, but it's definitely user made. Worse, I don't see how it can work - a flat pointed 'V' blade tries to cut away the leading/bottom of the waste before freeing the trailing/upper part of the waste. When making a V cut with a carvers' tool, it is (I eventually realised) important that the leading edges of the 'V' lean forward beyond the vertical, either by angling the tool, grind, or both. Like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfwYEW7yTFY (I would welcome confirmation or denial from people with carving experience) BugBear |
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260560 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
William Ghio wrote: > My material is 1 1/8” wide and a wide chisel can take it all in one go. Hmm. I was thinking (wrongly) of making very long V's, but I was wrong. Your point about a single cut seems quite important. This, in essence, is how letter carvers make the 'V' shape cuts; that form the letters. Relief cut on the centre line, then cut both sides. BugBear |
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260562 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Paul points out… >>I *do* have a tiny v-groove plane, but it's definitely user made. >>Worse, I don't see how it can work - a flat pointed 'V' blade >>tries to cut away the leading/bottom of the waste before >>freeing the trailing/upper part of the waste. But, maybe, it’s only used to refine a V that has been chiselled already. As already noted, using a veiner for this task is very likely to leave a less than perfect result, but a pass or two with a plane could give a perfect trim? Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot |
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260563 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Has anyone considered using a picture framers mount cutter for this? It’s a sharp knife designed to cut a 45 degree (or other) bevel in thin homogenous material, whilst running along a straight edge or guide. Given control of the cut, so that a couple of passes were possible, it would seem to be a good fit for the task in hand. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot |
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260564 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
What are those wooden pieces called that guide a chisel to make a perfect angled cut? used in sashmaking a lot. Would those work in this application? Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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260565 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, yorkshireman@y... < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: > Has anyone considered using a picture framers mount cutter for this? It’s > a sharp knife designed to cut a 45 degree (or other) bevel in thin > homogenous material, whilst running along a straight edge or guide. Good grief, that is flaming brilliant! I have one of these http://www.logangraphic.com/product/board-mounted-mat- cutters/logan-301-1-compact-classic/">http://www.logangraphic.com/product/board- mounted-mat-cutters/logan-301-1-compact-classic/ Which uses this as the cutter (fixed depth cut, may need some shims to stop its depth early) http://images.utrechtart.com/products/optionLarge/Logan/33269.jpg Only issue is it only cuts one side at a time. I also have a 90° cutter somewhere. This cutter is made for use without their "rail" system, and isn't as easy to use. I learned on this, then upgraded to the rail system after screwing up a few $10 mat boards. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTg0WDMwMA==/z/sboAAOSwDk5UAC-u/$_35.JPG?set_id=2 The free hand V Groove cutter is a bit hard to hold as well, in my opinion. But cuts both sides at the same time. http://www.artandframing.com.au/images/logan%20V-Groover%206000.jpg -- Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA, prepping for this Sunday's FleaBAG event. |
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260566 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
> On Nov 29, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Matthew Groves |
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260567 | "Ray Sheley Jr." <rsheley@r...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
On 28 Nov 2016, at 17:32, William Ghio |
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260568 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2016‑11‑29 | Re: Delicate joinery |
> Has anyone considered using a picture framers mount cutter for this? It's a sharp knife designed to cut a 45 degree (or other) bevel in thin homogenous material, whilst running along a straight edge or guide. Hadn't thought of that, but it would work. A half inch bar 1 1/4 inch wide, with one side bevelled to 45 degrees would also work (that was the working part of the old mat cutters I used to use) Mike in Woodland |
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260645 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑12‑08 | Re: Delicate joinery |
GG’s Recently I asked a question about making dividers for a jewelry tray in very thin material and, of course, got several thoughtful answers. Part of he original exchange is at the bottom if you want a refresher. I have been working on the tray and documented my solution. I put comments at the below each photo to explain the process. I start out w/ the jigs I made then show them in use. The first few pics may not make sense till you see the rest. Layout is critical. I had to discard several pieces because of misalignment. Including one of my dovetailed end pieces. The photo of the finished piece is deceptive because it shows it from the best angle. There are several misalignments that show when viewed from directly above. I think this is a poor joint for the purpose at hand. It will work best where you are dividing a single row, For the multiple rows I would use half-lap joints to make a grid. I cut everything and fit it all. Ten I glued the outside frame and things shifted. I had to recut one row of partition pieces. Everything looked good. Moving on to glue up and things didn’t seem to line up as well. Live and learn. This is a sliding till for earrings (SWMBO has more earrings than I have chisels!) that will go over a tray that will be twice as deep. Luckily that will be for necklaces and will require far fewer dividers. I started on it today so should make Christmas... Pics & notes are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../alb ums/72157675866756562">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../albums/721576 75866756562 Bill |
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260647 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2016‑12‑08 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Bill Looks like the method has promise. If you did it on a regular basis I think you could get very good at it. It also looks like you picked a particularly ambitious project to try it out on - I usually see perhaps 2-3 of these joints in a box. Ed Minch |
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260654 | RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> | 2016‑12‑09 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Beautifully done, Bill! bob hutchins |
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260671 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2016‑12‑10 | Re: [SPAM?] Delicate joinery |
Bill does some excellent work on an earrings tray… I have a couple of comments / questions. First off - for this application in particular, the benefit of the v groove is that you can thin the top edges almost to nil without affecting the appearance of the joint. This is not true of, say, a halving joint, which would show unsightly gaps, or indeed of any other joint I can think up for the application. A fine top edge also helps to disguise any irregularity in the joint, as the gaps are less apparent. Second, may I ask, (for the depth is not apparent,) how easy it is for the user to pick out something small from one of the compartments? A friend made up a similar arrangement, and found that some packing was needed in the corners to allow someone to pick out small items. Very old cash drawers used wooden infill - imagine a bowl that has been cut down to being a squared off fit into a pigeon hole. I foresee some of this type of work in my future of restoring several old boxes, and making more, so I’m grateful for the idiot proof photos, and what a really nice result. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in an unseasonably warm 12 degrees C Northumberland |
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260673 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑12‑10 | Re: [SPAM?] Delicate joinery |
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 5:40 AM, yorkshireman@y... wrote: > > Bill does some excellent work on an earrings tray… > > I have a couple of comments / questions. > > First off - for this application in particular, the benefit of the v groove is that you can thin the top edges almost to nil without affecting the appearance of the joint. This is not true of, say, a halving joint, which would show unsightly gaps, or indeed of any other joint I can think up for the application. A fine top edge also helps to disguise any irregularity in the joint, as the gaps are less apparent. One thing I found is that you can adjust, to a very small degree, the V shape on the end of a piece to get a better fit if too much gap shows. > > Second, may I ask, (for the depth is not apparent,) how easy it is for the user to pick out something small from one of the compartments? A friend made up a similar arrangement, and found that some packing was needed in the corners to allow someone to pick out small items. This is a concern, but her fingers are much smaller than mine and she won’t be seeing it till it is done… so we will just have to see. For the bottom till, which will have an additional 20 cubbies for earrings, the depth will have to remain since the smaller till must slide across it and you can’t have things rising above the top surface. The top till is only 7 1/2 inches wide and if necessary I can take it to the bandsaw and lop off one dovetail worth of width to make access easier. At least that is what I keep telling myself. The remainder of the bottom till is cut up into 7 1/2 inch long compartments for necklaces and will be much easier to construct, altho it still involves 48 joints. > I foresee some of this type of work in my future of restoring several old boxes, and making more, so I’m grateful for the idiot proof photos, The interior sticks are hard to layout since they are shorter than the outside pieces and end in V’s to fit grooves in the outside pieces. Using dividers to layout the centerlines for the V’s is very precise, however once the V was cut referencing from the bottom of the V to layout other pieces was a bit sketchy. I fit the long internal sticks into their V’s, then laid a rule across from side to side to get a layout that was square across. This time, before making the V cut, I have made a fine pencil line right at the V’s knifed centerline. This will give me a more precise reference for verifying and adjusting the layout of the middle pieces. A god bit of this is adjusted visually on the fly so make sure you have a bit of excess stock. I have to recut several pieces. Bill |
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260675 | "Frank Filippone" <red735i@v...> | 2016‑12‑11 | Re: [SPAM?] Delicate joinery |
Make her a matching set of wooden Tweezers to reach "down there". Frank Filippone Red735i@v... This is a concern, but her fingers are much smaller than mine and she won’t be seeing it till it is done… so we will just have to see. |
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260676 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑12‑11 | Re: [SPAM?] Delicate joinery |
Yeah, BugBear put me onto some soft touch plastic tweezers but I like the idea of making them out of wood. Will just have to wait and see if there is a need. |
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260698 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2016‑12‑13 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Several of you have been interested in this project (see below if not familiar) so I wanted to give an up date. I built the second tray today and it went better. Building the first tray — or sliding till — I was not happy w/ the alignment of the cross pieces and had to remake several to get even a semblance of straight lines. For the till I gang marked all the pieces and cut the joinery. Being hand cut, not all the V’s lined up perfectly. For the lower tray I only marked the outside edges and before cutting the V’s I carried the marks to the top of the piece — https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31610219075/in/album-721576 75866756562/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31610219075/in/album-7 2157675866756562/ This way I could lay a square across and mark the intermediate pieces. Even if I had an error in the cutting I was more likely to get a straight line this way — https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31463465482/in/album-721576 75866756562/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31463465482/in/album-7 2157675866756562/ For pieces that did not go all the way across, a square from the outside edge gave me the straight joint — https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31463465432/in/album-721576 75866756562/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31463465432/in/album-7 2157675866756562/ In these pics the lower tray is just hand fitted. I have marked each piece as to orientation and location and differences, too small to see, exist and can only be seen in the actual placement of the piece. Doing a glue up of this many pieces all at once you need to know exacally where they go. This lower tray was a bit easier to do since half of the compartments are larger to accommodate necklaces. This pic shows the two trays as they will sit in the drawer SWMBO uses to store her jewelry — https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31494361461/in/album-721576 75866756562/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31494361461/in/album-7 2157675866756562/ Finally, several people commented on the potential difficulty of fishing earrings out of too deep a cubby. I tried it and not a problem — https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31494361461/in/album-721576 75866756562/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31494361461/in/album-7 2157675866756562/ The bottom tray is now glued up. Only have the planning of the top surfaces flush, trimming the bottom board flush and applying a finish. It will be done for Christmas! Bill |
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260715 | Mike DeLong <mpdelong@g...> | 2016‑12‑14 | Re: Delicate joinery |
Bill, All I can say is WOW! I've followed this thread with much interest, and will archive it for future reference. By my standards it was a very ambitious project, and by any standards it appears to have a very excellent and impressive outcome. Congratulations and Merry Christmas, Mike |
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