OldTools Archive
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250665 | Gary Katsanis <gtgrouch@r...> | 2014‑09‑28 | Apple Wood |
Recently, over the last 20 years or so, there has been a major move from standard apple trees to the dwarf varieties. Does anyone know if this affects the quality of the wood, or its desirability for handles? Gary Katsanis Albion NY, USA (In the middle of one of the largest apple-growing regions in North America) |
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250669 | John Leyden <leydenjl@g...> | 2014‑09‑29 | re: Apple Wood |
Gary, I happen to have a dwarf pear tree in my front yard. In addition to yielding dwarf-like fruit, at not quite ten years of age were I to cut the tree down tomorrow I might get a beefy walking stick out of the main trunk. Certainly a bevy of chisel handles, maybe even a baguette pin. But there are no would-be saw handles or burls worth turning in this thing. That it’s a “dwarf” doesn’t change the fact that it’s a pear. It’s just small stuff. Just my experience so far. Ask me again in another fifteen years. JL------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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250670 | Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> | 2014‑09‑29 | Re: Apple Wood |
G'day Gary, Long answer I'm afraid, because the answer isn't entirely simple or capable of being condensed to one sentence. Probably those not interested in apple-growing should leave now. I can't say with respect to the strength, durability etc of the new varieties, but on the basis of my Ag Science degree, living in what was once "The Apple Isle" , and using scavenged apple and pear wood there are a few things I can say. First of all, every apple will be of the species /Malus domestica/, so the physical properties of the wood will show some variation between trees and perhaps varieties, just as there will be natural variation between individual trees in a stand of Douglas fir. But all the working characteristics will be much the same. The way in which the tree has been grown, trained, pruned and forced to shape will have much more effect on any subsequent use of the wood. No apple-grower in Tasmania has used seedling trees, ie tops growing on their own roots within living memory. All have been cloned tops, cuttings from an example of a known variety grafted onto a seedling or onto a struck rootstock. I have seen a few huge open grown apple trees in the UK, mainly cider varieties which pretty much look after themselves. I have never seen such a tree in Tasmania, nor in Australia more generally Here old varieties of apples and pears were grown on heavy clay ground because that helped to keep down the size of the tree in the days when they were open-grown, ie shaped like a vase or goblet and not grown as hedges on trellis systems. The rootstock used was one known to cope with such conditions, the top grafted to the stock was the desired apple: red or Golden Delicious, Lady in the Snow etc. In the early 1900s a series of dwarfing rootstocks were developed in the UK at the East Malling Horticultural Research Station, later cooperating with the Merton Research Station. If you know a commercial grower of apple stock (as opposed to apples) he or she will almost certainly know of the "M" (Malling) or "MM" (Malling-Merton) series of rootstocks. Some are still used, others have fallen out of use, replaced by newer rootstock selections. See http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malling_series, or http://en.wikipedi a.org/wiki/Fruit_tree_propagation (Scan down to "Rootstocks"). So, an apple tree can be "dwarf" because of its own genetic makeup, or because the rootstock that the fruit-bearing top has been grafted onto is suppressing the vigour of the top, or because the overall growth is being limited by the conditions in which it is being grown. More and more the tendency is for production systems which increase the number of stems per unit area of land, restrict the height and width of individual trees, allow for mechanical pruning ("hedge systems") and even mechanical harvesting. A young tree grows more good fruit per unit area of land and per unit weight of apple wood than does an old widely spreading tree. So, once they are past the juvenile stage a young orchard planted at high density is more productive and cheaper to run than an old orchard using an old cultural system. Sweeping generalisation I know but good for almost all cases. In addition growers will cut trees right back and graft on cuttings from newer varieties if old varieties fall out of favour. So, all in all the chances of finding pieces of clear strong apple wood suitable for saw handles or whatever, are diminishing. When I drive through apple-growing areas I keep an eye out for old open grown orchards being pushed out to be replaced with new training systems and varieties, or increasingly commonly, replaced by cherry orchards. Sometimes I can get one or 2 foot butt sections for the asking and the gathering. That is rare now but. The other type of dwarf apples are the "mutants": breeders have been seeking out individual trees with very short internode lengths. These are "natural dwarfs" Again a tree with desirable fruit characteristics will be selected and cuttings from that individual grafted onto seedling rootstocks grown from the same variety. This ensures that the grafted trees stay tiny, but all the fruit is identical because the fruiting part of the all the trees is genetically identical. These are aimed at the patio and tub specimen market and with the short intenodes would be full of knots and twisted grain, assuming one ever survived t a size large enough to produce a billet large enough for a chisel handle. You would never get a saw handle out of one of these trees. And if you come from an orchard owning family, my apology for telling you stuff you already knew. Regards, Tony B In Hobart where the 30 yo backyard apple hedge is just coming into flower. On 29/09/2014 3:51 AM, Gary Katsanis wrote: > Recently, over the last 20 years or so, there has been a major move > from standard apple trees to the dwarf varieties. > > Does anyone know if this affects the quality of the wood, or its > desirability for handles? > > Gary Katsanis > Albion NY, USA |
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250691 | galoot@l... | 2014‑09‑29 | Re: Apple Wood |
Quoting Gary Katsanis |
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250692 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2014‑09‑29 | Re: Apple Wood |
I'm about to plant 6 or so apple trees. Can't decide whether to go with cider apples, fresh eating, or storing. Maybe all 3? Think I'll get some old world types from http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/apple- varieties/">http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/apple-varieties/ Anyone else with recommendations for cultivars....er....tool handle varieties? Matthew Groves Springfield, MO PS Shaped my first 5 windsor spindles today. https://ww w.dropbox.com/s/thnqz7czoukcztr/IMG_2671.JPG?dl=0 On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 5:19 PM, |
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250694 | kevin bock <nashbok@g...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
Just curious -- why apple for saw handles anyway? It would seem that apple wood would never have been available in great supply and its properties are not that unique amongst dense hardwoods. Google has never provided me with a satisfactory answer on this. Kevin |
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250695 | Steve Jones <stjones@k...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
Matt; That's a pretty useless site. All they have is a bunch of pictures of apples - no pictures of the wood! -- Steve Jones in Kokomo On Mon, Sep 29, 2014, at 07:45 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > I'm about to plant 6 or so apple trees. > > Can't decide whether to go with cider apples, fresh eating, or storing. > Maybe all 3? > > Think I'll get some old world types from > http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/apple- varieties/">http://bighorsecreekfarm.com/apple-varieties/ > > Anyone else with recommendations for cultivars....er....tool handle > varieties? > > Matthew Groves > Springfield, MO > > PS Shaped my first 5 windsor spindles today. > https:// www.dropbox.com/s/thnqz7czoukcztr/IMG_2671.JPG?dl=0 > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 5:19 PM, |
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250697 | <ruby@m...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I read a book a few years ago - something by Michail Pollan? - about several crops, apples being one of them (mary jane being another). I was amazed to find out that the 10 or so seeds in each apple will grow 10 different apple trees with different unpredictable flavor in each tree's fruit. Eating apples only really occurred in the latter half of the 19th century. When someone discovered a flavorful apple - say a Macintosh - the tree was worth thousands and all Macintosh bearing trees now are branches from descendants of that one tree grafted onto miscellaneous rootstock. There was a time when rewards were offered for new types of apples, and it was all just chance. Amazing. Also, interesting to find out about Johnny Appleseed. He was growing generic apple trees with inedible fruit and giving them to pioneers heading west so they could make hard cider. You couldn't drink the water reliably, so cider was a way to hydrate safely (until you had too much and got behind the plow). So Mr. Appleseed was a pusher, or at least an enabler, and not the jolly guy that Walt Disney made him out to be. Ed MInch Steve Jones |
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250698 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
Apple has a couple of things going for it. It's hard and wear-resistant while being closed-grain and able to take a very high polish. Other woods were used as well, but apple was one of the best. Less expensive saws used beech for handles which is very nice, but won't take the high polish apple will, nor does it feel as good in the hand. During Disston's hey day there was an abundance of apple wood. My understanding is that in colonial times apples were a key part of the average homestead's diet. They provided a major source of both food and drink. Sloane's books are filled with anecdotes about apples. The trees these apples grew on were full-sized trees, not the dwarf varieties you see today. By the late 1800s to early 1900s, apple trees were becoming less important and were thus sold for lumber. It was during this time that Disston was transporting massive amounts of apple logs to Philadelphia to be sawn into boards for saw handles. The scope of the operation is hard to imagine. This 1917 advertisement should give you some idea of just how much apple wood Disston used, and the size and number of logs they moved. http://hyperkitten .com/pics/tools/ads/disston32.jpg It appears to be an entire train with carload after carload of nothing but apple logs passing by more piles of apple logs on one side and stacks of sawn and stacked apple boards on the other. I hope that helps provide some perspective on both the scale of Disston's operation, and the abundance of apple at the time. Josh On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 9:14 PM, kevin bock |
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250699 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
When I was a kid, my dad ordered a case of Washington Delicious apples every year, and we loved both the yellow and red varieties. Then some years ago it was decided that Washington Delicious apples bruised too easily, so they started grafting new stock to produce apples that don't bruise so easily, but look the same. They succeeded, but the result tastes like crap. Now there are no decent Washington Delicious apples, but it's too late for them to go back. Sometimes you just need to leave well enough alone. Few people today have ever tasted a real Washington Delicious apple. I just returned from a trip to Watsonville California where they grow apples on small farms. They have many different wonderful apples. The farm I go to is Prevedelli, http://www.prevedelli.com/ They grow 40 different varieties on 400 acres. I have bought about a dozen different varieties, and all are just wonderful. We brought back 40 pounds, and now we have to dehydrate them. On Sep 29, 2014, at 7:18 PM, ruby@m... wrote: > I read a book a few years ago - something by Michail > Pollan? - about several crops, apples being one of them > (mary jane being another). > > I was amazed to find out that the 10 or so seeds in each > apple will grow 10 different apple trees with different > unpredictable flavor in each tree's fruit. Eating apples > only really occurred in the latter half of the 19th > century. When someone discovered a flavorful apple - say a > Macintosh - the tree was worth thousands and all Macintosh > bearing trees now are branches from descendants of that one > tree grafted onto miscellaneous rootstock. There was a > time when rewards were offered for new types of apples, and > it was all just chance. Amazing. > > Also, interesting to find out about Johnny Appleseed. He > was growing generic apple trees with inedible fruit and > giving them to pioneers heading west so they could make > hard cider. You couldn't drink the water reliably, so > cider was a way to hydrate safely (until you had too much > and got behind the plow). So Mr. Appleseed was a pusher, > or at least an enabler, and not the jolly guy that Walt > Disney made him out to be. > > Ed MInch > > > Steve Jones |
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250700 | "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> | 2014‑09‑30 | RE: Apple Wood |
We have Brogdale in England. "The National Fruit Collection includes over 3,500 named Apple, Pear, Plum, Cherry, Bush fruit, Vine and Cob Nut cultivars" http://www.brogdale.org/ At least some thing is being done for Biodiversity. Was Diston just using apple as it was being removed and there for inexpensive? Pete -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto :oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of JAMES THOMPSON Sent: 30 September 2014 07:04 To: Michele Minch Cc: oldtools List Subject: Re: [OldTools] Apple Wood When I was a kid, my dad ordered a case of Washington Delicious apples every year, and we loved both the yellow and red varieties. Then some years ago it was decided that Washington Delicious apples bruised too easily, so they started grafting new stock to produce apples that don't bruise so easily, but look the same. They succeeded, but the result tastes like crap. Now there are no decent Washington Delicious apples, but it's too late for them to go back. Sometimes you just need to leave well enough alone. Few people today have ever tasted a real Washington Delicious apple. I just returned from a trip to Watsonville California where they grow apples on small farms. They have many different wonderful apples. The farm I go to is Prevedelli, http://www.prevedelli.com/ They grow 40 different varieties on 400 acres. I have bought about a dozen different varieties, and all are just wonderful. We brought back 40 pounds, and now we have to dehydrate them. DISCLAIMER: This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private and confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, please take no action based on it nor show a copy to anyone. In this case, please reply to this email to highlight the error. Opinions and information in this email that do not relate to the official business of Nottingham Trent University shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University. Nottingham Trent University has taken steps to ensure that this email and any attachments are virus-free, but we do advise that the recipient should check that the email and its attachments are actually virus free. This is in keeping with good computing practice. |
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250702 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I'm not sure that book has all its facts straight. > Eating apples only really occurred in the latter half of the 19th > century. Apples were a Colonial period staple in the States, with a number of varieties available. Something distinctly American is still said to be "as American as apple pie." Eric Sloane's book, A Reverence for Wood, talks about apple trees at some length, and tells the story of the "Seek no Further" apple. (I'd love to try one of these.) The book has a lot more information about apple trees -- grafting and other methods of growing from starts, handling practices and storage of apples. > [Johnny Appleseed] was growing generic apple trees with inedible fruit and giving them to pioneers heading west so they could make hard cider. You couldn't drink the water reliably, so cider was a way to hydrate safely. We might check out what Sloane had to say about Mr. Appleseed. It's been many a year since I last read A Reverence for Wood and though I remember him writing about the fellow, what he had to say is fuzzy to say the least. About hard cider. No difficulty in making hard cider. The difficulty was keeping cider not hard before the advent of refrigeration. The other carpenter at Sutter's Fort once brought a gallon of unprocessed cider on a summer day. By noon it had a sort of piquancy and by 3:00 in the afternoon it was effervescent and alcoholic. (and we were very happy carpenters!) Water had not been dependably safe to drink for centuries. In fact, it has been said that the whole of Europe lived in an alcoholic haze until the introduction of tea and coffee around the late 1500s. My favorite apples are mostly regarded as cooking apples. Gravenstein, pippin, and Granny Smiths -- all slightly tart. Plenty of all of them in northern California. Santa Rosa has a Gravenstein fair. Up in the foothills East of Sacramento are extensive orchards, and the annual Apple Hill festival. One of the features is a cider that is a blend that uses 50% Gravenstein juice. Wonderful stuff that isn't to my taste cloyingly sweet. Scott G has some things to say about apple wood saw handles, and why they are superior to other woods for this use. I hope he will post on the topic. Mike in Sacto |
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250703 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
On Sep 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Joshua Clark |
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250706 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I don';t know what they teach them now, but soldiers used to be taught that you can't drink any water you find without treating it first. Even in a cold clear creek, you don't know what is upstream. Of course, as a child I drank from streams all the time without ill effect. I just didn''t know any better. :>) On Sep 30, 2014, at 3:40 AM, Michael Blair |
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250708 | John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I remember, as a kid, going hiking with my dad. We happened upon a stream with a stone bed and it was clear, cool, fast moving water. I remember my dad telling me that the rocks actually filtered the water and that it was safe to drink. I know he was not correct, but I sure wish he was. It seemed like nothing in the world tasted better than that water. Oh well, it didn't kill me. Doc |
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250711 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I guess "wild" drinking water is about geography. If I was in the desert or out on the plains and came across a small mudhole, I would definitely think twice. I know Matt Dillon would drink his fill and fill up the canteens, but I would certainly hesitate. Meanwhile, when the creek is flowing at 1000 gallons per minute, splashing and gurgling and swirling strong current, and you can count the pebbles on the bottom of a 10' deep swimming hole, and fish are f-cking in it? Yeah I drink that water everyday. My town has a water system that has nothing but a filter and a meter. The filter is not all that big because there isn't much to filter out. The meter watches bacterial content but seldom needs to correct with chlorine at all. We bathe and wash our cars in natural Sparkletts here. Apple wood is like no other. Not maple, peach, pear, walnut or cocobolo is anything like it. Your ancestors were not idiots! Regardless of the latest sales pitch, nothing else compares to apple in a saw handle. Its velvet. Once its polished and worn in just a bit, it reaches back and caresses your palm better than velvet, as you work. Don't bother to believe me. Go get yourself an old apple handled saw and clean it up and try it out for a few hours -hard- work. Beechwood or even rosewood will have blistered your unaccustomed palm in an hour. Apple won't though. You can go all day, if you can take the labor. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.n et/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcr est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8296 - Release Date: 09/29/14 |
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250713 | "=?utf-8?B?cGhpbHNjaGVtcGZAZ21haWwuY29t?=" <philschempf@g...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
I had an experience with a small stream coming down a steep ravine in central Alaska, enough water to get a drink and not much more. I drank my fill and continued to climb. Found a dead sheep decomposing in the stream a couple hundred feet farther up the draw. No adverse consequences though. Phil Sent from my HTC |
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250714 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑09‑30 | Re: Apple Wood |
And that is exactly why.... Ya never know what's upstream. Mountainous areas are not so bad, but swamps, jungles, deserts, and populated areas can be. Not so much in this country, because we have pretty good sanitation, but elsewhere, it's very risky. On Sep 30, 2014, at 1:50 PM, philschempf@g... wrote: > I had an experience with a small stream coming down a steep ravine in central Alaska, enough water to get a drink and not much more. I drank my fill and continued to climb. Found a dead sheep decomposing in the stream a couple hundred feet farther up the draw. No adverse consequences though. > > Phil > > Sent from my HTC |
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250715 | Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> | 2014‑10‑01 | Re: Apple Wood |
I just had to cut an old standard apple tree. I couldn't even give the logs away to a local woodworker, who collects saws! The trunk was two feet through, splitting into three just above the ground. I have some five and six foot long chunks between ten and twelve inches diameter. It is not checking, just drying down well. If anyone wants them......I don't think UPS handles logs. Yours for the taking. If I cut them into boards they will get aged a year or two, then made into ... something, I'm sure. Mike > Apple won't though. You can go all day, if you can take the labor. > yours Scott > > > > -- Rock Creek Mill & Heritage Farm, LLC N7297 County Road A Argyle, Wisconsin 53504 608-636-3322 |
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250716 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2014‑10‑01 | Re: Apple Wood |
Its 5 1/2" wide Mike. Cut them a little over a full inch rough, 1 1/8 would be good, and 5 1/2" wide. This is your target. You can do most all saw totes with that. Imagine 6' planks of saw tote stock? Yummo Lets see, that is 12 saw tote blanks per plank and how many planks can you saw out of 3, 1 foot diameter logs? 3 years air dry, stickered under cover away from direct sun?? Sounds like a long range mail order business opportunity to me. Apple is nearly impossible to get. I bet you could get 5 or even 8 bucks a blank. Pretty good board foot price. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.n et/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcr est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4025/8302 - Release Date: 09/30/14 |
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250720 | Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> | 2014‑10‑01 | Re: Apple Wood |
Gracious Galoots, Unrepentant apple wood gloat. Stacked and stickered since 11/2010 in my shop, as we digitally speak. White piece of paper stuck to the wood is 6" square. Some planks are almost quartersawn. Lovely grain and beautiful, rich color. Although some cupping has occurred, most planks are 5/4 to 6/4, so it's good. Saw handles and lots more in the raw. http://goo.gl/EbK38Y Regards, Dwight On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:42 PM, scott grandstaff |
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250726 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑10‑01 | Re: Apple Wood |
Gorgeous stuff! > Unrepentant apple wood gloat. Stacked and stickered since 11/2010 in > my > shop, as we digitally speak. |
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250727 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2014‑10‑01 | Re: Apple Wood |
Lifetime supply there. It appears to be enough wood to make a small piece of furniture!! Now that would be cool - a spice cabinet out of apple! Ed Minch On Sep 30, 2014, at 10:29 PM, Dwight Beebe |
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250741 | Charlie Rodgers <crodgers3163@c...> | 2014‑10‑02 | Re: Apple Wood |
All this talk about apple wood - and especially the beautiful plane Andrew made (kinda unfair of him, backing up his stories with pictures like that) are like salt on a fresh, open wound to me. As the houses we're building get close to completion, turns out a couple of trees needed to be removed so the adequate slope can be graded on the 350' driveway. Also turns out, they were full size apple trees the Dad of the previous owner planted ~60 years ago. When the builder told me he had to take them down, I told him to leave the trunks, from the butt swell to the first fork, on the ground. Of course, the landscaper chipped everything on site. When I got there Saturday, there wasn't a branch or leaf to be seen. I should've had two apple logs ~18" diameter by 5'-6' long. They did offer me all the wood chips I want ;-( I don't even want to ask about the black walnut tree that they were to take out this week... Charlie Rodgers For another 6 weeks or so, in Clinton, Maryland |
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250746 | Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> | 2014‑10‑02 | Re: Re: Apple Wood |
arggghhhh - such a loss. I would be furious but then again my wife wold caution me to lighten up On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Charlie Rodgers |
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