this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the link...

how can one date such a beast...?  are there any particular characteristics that
can narrow them down to, say a decade,  at least ?

this one was made in sheffield if that helps.

not much to go on i know....but rules are rules...

Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

Mal

Not sure which number is which, but one of these big guys comes with a return
spring and one does not.  Let me suggest that you want the one WITHOUT the
return spring (DAMHIKT).

YMMV

Ed Minch
Half the people you meet will be below average




On May 17, 2014, at 8:16 AM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the link...
> 
> how can one date such a beast...?  are there any particular characteristics
that can narrow them down to, say a decade,  at least ?
> 
> this one was made in sheffield if that helps.
> 
> not much to go on i know....but rules are rules...
> 
> Cheers,

On Saturday, May 17, 2014, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
>
>
> how can one date such a beast...?  are there any particular
> characteristics that can narrow them down to, say a decade,  at least ?
>
> this one was made in sheffield if that helps.
>
>

http://www.mwtca.org/the-gristmill/sample-articles/77-yankee-tools-
checklist.html">http://www.mwtca.org/the-gristmill/sample-articles/77-yankee-
tools-checklist.html

This list is a help, thanks David.  But doesn't tell dates, does mention
spring return that Ed mentioned.

I usually look at the wood handle, and the Presence of Stanley.  Stanley
makes it later,(1946?),  crappy wood or plasticky makes it later.

Kirk in HMB, not sure where the real dates are for Yankees in Sheffield.


-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors.
Kirk

Them's fighting words, but leaves more for me!. No A, no buy!

FWIW
Don

On 5/17/2014 7:14 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
> Mal
>
> Not sure which number is which, but one of these big guys comes with a return
spring and one does not.  Let me suggest that you want the one WITHOUT the
return spring (DAMHIKT).
>
> YMMV
>
> Ed Minch

> Not sure which number is which, but one of these big guys comes with a return
spring and one does not.  Let me suggest that you want the one WITHOUT the
return spring (DAMHIKT).


why do i want the one without the return spring ?


Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

OK, here it is.  I learned a lot working on a major addition in 1973 with a 73
year old carpenter named Joe Shingle.  Joe had all manner of cool tools and he
ended up giving me a couple - including the Stanley 95 edge squaring plane that
I still use.

He used one of these for driving screws for a lot of things and I always watched
out of the corner of my eye at how easy he made it look.  I picked one up at a
flea market.

We were hanging doors and I wanted to be just like Joe, so I pulled out my big
honking screwdriver, and immediately put a huge gouge in an oak door frame that
took forever to fix.  He said “oh, you bought the one with the spring in it”.
It just never dawned on me that he was always using 2 hands to drive the screws.

Ed Minch





On May 17, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> why do i want the one without the return spring ?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mal

>
http://www.mwtca.org/the-gristmill/sample-articles/77-yankee-tools-
checklist">http://www.mwtca.org/the-gristmill/sample-articles/77-yankee-tools-
checklist
.html
>
> This list is a help, thanks David.  But doesn't tell dates, does mention
spring return that Ed 
>
> mentioned.
>
> I usually look at the wood handle, and the Presence of Stanley.  Stanley
makes it 
> later,(1946?),  crappy wood or plasticky makes it later.
>
> Kirk in HMB, not sure where the real dates are for Yankees in Sheffield.

Thanks Kirk.  I wrote that list back in the 90's.  It's amazing that it is
still on the MWTCA website.  Since that was written, Joe Ward published the
book, North Brothers Manufacturing Company Product Guide, which is the bible
for Yankee collectors.  Joe sold his remaining copies to me, so I have them
for sale at $20, a good price for a color-illustrated hardbound book that is
232 pages full of information.  The book focusses on the tools made by North
Brothers in Philadelphia, so it covers the period from 1897 to about 1957
(from 1945 to 1957 tools were marked North Brothers a Division of Stanley,
or similar).  It does not cover the later tools that do not say North
Brothers, which include the Sheffield-made tools.

There is an article by David Truesdale that was published in the EAIA
Gristmill publication, that gives the types for Yankee screwdrivers, and
which is useful for collectors who wish to date Yankee tools.  The types
depend on patent dates, presence of screws, type of ferrule, beaded handle,
etc.  However, the types don't extend to Sheffield produced screwdrivers or
any non-North Brothers labeled tools).  There are also many varieties of
Yankee screwdrivers that were produced during WWII, with different metals or
plating or bluing. 

I have seen both 130A and 130B (and 135A, 131A) Yankee screwdrivers made in
Sheffield.  All that I have seen say Stanley, not North Brothers, so that
would imply they were made after 1957.  I know that they get a premium
price, compared to common variety 130A made by Stanley.  There were also
Yankee screwdrivers made in Germany in the early 50's, which seem to be much
less common but don't command the higher price, probably because collectors
generally are not aware of them.

Dave

Well, if they're locked in the short position and come unlocked 
unexpectedly, they could poke you or someone in the eye, for example. I 
always store mine fully extended, so the spring isn't loaded. They may 
accumulate more dirt that way, but that's easily brushed off.

Don

On 5/17/2014 8:14 AM, Malcolm Thomas wrote:
>
>> Not sure which number is which, but one of these big guys comes with 
>> a return spring and one does not.  Let me suggest that you want the 
>> one WITHOUT the return spring (DAMHIKT).
>
>
> why do i want the one without the return spring ?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Mal
>
> Sent using Mail on iPad 2
>

OK, here it is.  I learned a lot working on a major addition in 1973 with a 73
year old carpenter named Joe Shingle.  Joe had all manner of cool tools and he
ended up giving me a couple - including the Stanley 95 edge squaring plane that
I still use.

He used one of these for driving screws for a lot of things and I always watched
out of the corner of my eye at how easy he made it look.  I picked one up at a
flea market.

We were hanging doors and I wanted to be just like Joe, so I pulled out my big
honking screwdriver, and immediately put a huge gouge in an oak door frame that
took forever to fix.  He said “oh, you bought the one with the spring in it”.
It just never dawned on me that he was always using 2 hands to drive the screws.

Ed Minch





On May 17, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> why do i want the one without the return spring ?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mal

The following website is a good resource for such tools.....

http://www.old
toolsnstuff.com/yankeescrewdriverpage.htm

Mike


On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 6:16 AM, Malcolm Thomas wrote:

> this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the
> link...
>
> how can one date such a beast...?  are there any particular
> characteristics that can narrow them down to, say a decade,  at least ?
>
> this one was made in sheffield if that helps.
>
> not much to go on i know....but rules are rules...
>
> Cheers,
> Mal
>
> Sent using Mail on iPad 2
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

> On 18 May 2014, at 0:47, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> Well, if they're locked in the short position and come unlocked unexpectedly,
they could poke you or someone in the eye, for example. I always store mine
fully extended, so the spring isn't loaded. They may accumulate more dirt that
way, but that's easily brushed off.
> 
> 


Good point, yes they can eject quite agressively.  and someone mentioned keeping
them away from young children, another very good point.

while all due care is required with these tools (and many others of course), I
don't really see the point or need in avoiding them althogether.  personal
preferences may dictate otherwise of course.

Cheers,
Mal

Sent from my iPad

> On May 17, 2014, at 9:13 PM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
> 
> Good point, yes they can eject quite agressively.  and someone mentioned
keeping them away from young children, another very good point.
> 
> while all due care is required with these tools (and many others of course), I
don't really see the point or need in avoiding them althogether.  personal
preferences may dictate otherwise of course.

I use both, but if working on or near a show surface, I used the springless.

Bill

Not using Robertson heads then?

Don

On 5/17/2014 7:25 PM, Bill Ghio wrote:
>> while all due care is required with these tools (and many others of course),
I don't really see the point or need in avoiding them althogether.  personal
preferences may dictate otherwise of course.
> I use both, but if working on or near a show surface, I used the springless.
>
> Bill
>
>

On May 18, 2014, at 2:06 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> Not using Robertson heads then?
> 
> Don
> 
> On 5/17/2014 7:25 PM, Bill Ghio wrote:
>>> while all due care is required with these tools (and many others of course),
I don't really see the point or need in avoiding them althogether.  personal
preferences may dictate otherwise of course.
>> I use both, but if working on or near a show surface, I used the springless.
>> 
>> Bill

I keep buckets of Robinson heads is various sizes in the shop. They get driven
w/ a light brace and a Lee Valley adaptor: "Our hex driver has a 1/4" hex socket
with a rare-earth magnet in it to firmly hold any standard 1/4" bit – Phillips,
square-drive, posi-drive, etcetera." http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/p
age.aspx?p=32300&cat=1,180,42337">http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=3
2300&cat=1,180,42337

But when it comes to something that shows or when I need a size from the local
hdwre store because I don't have it in square drive, I will go for a slotted
screw.

Bill------------------------------------------------------------------------

> this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the link...



..ok, the auction has ended now, so I can provide a bit more info, if it helps
date this more ..


my guess is it’s between 1957 and 1971 (end of decimal currency in the UK was in
Feb 1971  [we got free money at school !!] .  77/- being the price I am guessing
and assuming it was originally sold in the UK and not Oz for example)…

..anyway… see what you think...

https://
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_01.JPG
https://
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_02.JPG
https://
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_03.JPG
https://
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130A_04.JPG




Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 17 May 2014, at 8:16 pm, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> 
> 
>

That's a decent adapter. And I was pleased to find this selection of 
Yankee-style bits hidden away on their site:

h
ttp://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417

I keep three Yankees with Robertson Nos 1, 2 & 3 under my bench at all 
times.

Don

On 5/18/2014 6:26 AM, William Ghio wrote:
> I keep buckets of Robinson heads is various sizes in the shop. They get driven
w/ a light brace and a Lee Valley adaptor: "Our hex driver has a 1/4" hex socket
with a rare-earth magnet in it to firmly hold any standard 1/4" bit – Phillips,
square-drive, posi-drive, etcetera."http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pa
ge.aspx?p=32300&cat=1,180,42337">http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32
300&cat=1,180,42337

I bought one of these adapters from LV so I could use hex bits in my 135
and found it a bit over sized, but a minute with a file resolved the issue-
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=57809&cat=1,43411,43417&ap
=2">http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=57809&cat=1,43411,43417&ap=2

Phil


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> That's a decent adapter. And I was pleased to find this selection of
> Yankee-style bits hidden away on their site:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417"
>http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417
>
> I keep three Yankees with Robertson Nos 1, 2 & 3 under my bench at all
> times.
>
> Don
>
> On 5/18/2014 6:26 AM, William Ghio wrote:
>
>> I keep buckets of Robinson heads is various sizes in the shop. They get
>> driven w/ a light brace and a Lee Valley adaptor: "Our hex driver has a
>> 1/4" hex socket with a rare-earth magnet in it to firmly hold any standard
>> 1/4" bit – Phillips, square-drive, posi-drive, etcetera."http://www.">http://www.
>> leevalley.c
om/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32300&cat=1,180,42337
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

That little birdcage awl is interesting - anyone tried it?

Ed Minch





On May 18, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> That's a decent adapter. And I was pleased to find this selection of Yankee-
style bits hidden away on their site:
> 
> http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417"
>http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=66021&cat=1,43411,43417
> 
> I keep three Yankees with Robertson Nos 1, 2 & 3 under my bench at all times.
> 
> Don

Ed Minch wrote: "I learned a lot working on a major addition in 1973 with a 73
year old carpenter named Joe Shingle...We were hanging doors and I wanted to be
just like Joe, so I pulled out my big honking screwdriver, and immediately put a
huge gouge in an oak door frame that took forever to fix.  He said “oh, you
bought the one with the spring in it”.  It just never dawned on me that he was
always using 2 hands to drive the screws."

Back in the 1970s I inherited a springed North Bros. 130 (*) and the Millers
Falls springless in the same size. I used these a lot over the years and always
found the springless a real PITA, but I used it a lot because the Yankee was so
gunked up with thick grease that the spring barely worked. Now that I've cleaned
out the Yankee (thanks to advice from the Porch) I doubt I'll ever use the MF
again, though I'm keping it from sentiment; these screwdrivers were, I now know,
among the first really good tools I ever had.

I marred a lot of boards with those screwdrivers, but I probably marred more
with the MF than the Yankee. I never had anyone to tell me to use both hands,
though.

Tom Conroy

(*) I now have three North Brothers Yankees with springs, marked 130, 130A, and
131A. I dunno why my inherited springed one is marked 130 instead of 130A. The
131 is the largest size, but I usually prefer the medium 130-130A size, and the
one I use most is a bought-new German Schroeder in the small size, which has a
hexagonal chuck for modern bits instead of the old notched-shaft design. I like
being able to use the wierd modern bits when necessary. I'd get the larger
Schroeder, even thought its workmanship isn't up to the old North Bros. ones,
except that I'm too cheap to lay out the money.

Ok, my "Moormans" branded (cattle feed mob i believe) MF #29 arrived today, to
complement my two 670A's.

..what it is with these dang screwdrivers ??  I just want more of them :-) 

  I have been reading a little about their early days in North Bros and Zachry T
Furbish and the Forest City Screwdriver mob etc in absolute awe that something
quite simple in concept, but complex to put together I would imagine (back in
those days), was conceived and produced with such elegant form. And the sound
they make when they are used; its like that sound a well sharpened plane makes
while taking gossamer thin shavings....

Even SWMBO commented how 'nice' they looked.

mmm.....its like being back in the ye ol' candy store again, but with a few more
pennies to spend ;-0


Cheers,
Mal

...someone slap me 'round the head before i fill the damn shed with these things
:-)

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

> On 18 May 2014, at 22:31, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
> 
> 
>> this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the link...
> 
> 
> 
> ..ok, the auction has ended now, so I can provide a bit more info, if it helps
date this more ..
> 
> 
> my guess is it’s between 1957 and 1971 (end of decimal currency in the UK was
in Feb 1971  [we got free money at school !!] .  77/- being the price I am
guessing and assuming it was originally sold in the UK and not Oz for example)…
> 
> ..anyway… see what you think...
> 
> https:
//dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_01.JPG
> https:
//dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_02.JPG
> https:
//dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130a_03.JPG
> https:
//dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/130A_04.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz
> (Perth to be more precise)
> 
>> On 17 May 2014, at 8:16 pm, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Wait til you discover the true range of these things.  I even found one that
only tightens and does not loosen - made for assembly lines where they only
tighten and don’t loosen.


Ed Minch





On May 19, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> ..what it is with these dang screwdrivers ??  I just want more of them :-)

Malcolm:
 
"...someone slap me 'round the head before i fill the damn shed with these
things :-)"
 
Someone who? Someone from the SGFH ? You won't find any of that kind of help
from this crowd. More likely, we'll be discussing where you could buy more of
them at a gloatable price.
 
1) There was a workshop legend that the "tighten-only" ratchet screwdrivers were
for Undertakers.  Once the coffin lid is screwed on, the Undertaker never needs
to unscrew them !  (Has been discussed on the Porch many times.)
 
2) My pet hate is finding one of these beauties BENT because Denny Dimwit used
it to pry something. DOH !!!
 
3) There are mother lodes.  Years ago, a friend was at a hardware store Going
Out of Business Sale, and had the presence of mind to cop the compartmented box
of Yankee bits and accessories.  (No, you can't buy any of them!)  Keep this in
mind the next time a local hardware finds that resistance to the Borg is futile.
 
John Ruth 
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent from my iPad

> On May 19, 2014, at 10:52 AM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> 
> 2) My pet hate is finding one of these beauties BENT because Denny Dimwit used
it to pry something. DOH !!!

I thot that was why they extended... better leverage!

From: William Ghio

>>John Ruth shares his frustration. 
>> 2) My pet hate is finding one of these beauties BENT because Denny Dimwit
used it to pry something. DOH !!!

>I thot that was why they extended... better leverage!

Bill, you are an echo from the past. After 50 some years of teaching people how
to use tools,
yup I started in 7th grade shop class, my least favorite situation is when
someone spouts off with your premise and I think, “Here we go again.”
There have been times I used a 3 foot long screwdriver to remove or install a
screw. Never because I needed more leverage. More reach certainly but never
leverage.
That’s what a pipe wrench on the shank is for.

I've always wondered how hard to "use" ratcheting screwdrivers.  I've got two
Yankee #30s and I'm a bit leery about working them too hard.  I usually drill
the largest  pilot hole I can get away with and put some type of lube on the
screw.  I've just seen so many of these things that are  beat to pieces.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On May 19, 2014, at 8:47 PM, nashbok@y... wrote:

> I've always wondered how hard to "use" ratcheting screwdrivers.  I've got two
Yankee #30s and I'm a bit leery about working them too hard.  I usually drill
the largest  pilot hole I can get away with and put some type of lube on the
screw.  I've just seen so many of these things that are  beat to pieces.
> 
I have never seen a idiot proof tool. Everything can be damaged by the right
kind of abuse. But I don't believe you can hurt a tool by using it properly,
even if you try to work it to death.

The destruction you see on old tools is all caused by misuse.

Although I do have (or did have) one of these very same ratchet screwdrivers
that had been used up.  The nickel was all but gone off the barrel, the paint
was long gone off the handle, and the mechanism slipped when you pushed it in
forward, but not in reverse.  Just plain worn out.

Ed Minch





On May 20, 2014, at 9:14 AM, JAMES THOMPSON  wrote:

> I have never seen a idiot proof tool. Everything can be damaged by the right
kind of abuse. But I don't believe you can hurt a tool by using it properly,
even if you try to work it to death.
> 
> The destruction you see on old tools is all caused by misuse. 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yankee 130A - Quick return, length 20@ open, with three bits, is listed at 40/9
(That's 40 shillings and nine pence, Paddy) in my Rycrofts catalogue of  1963

another 1000 pages of good stuff in there too


so - after '63, but make alowance for this being a trade price. 


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
in Northumberland





On 18 May 2014, at 15:31, Malcolm Thomas wrote:

> 
>> this one is a bit tricky...its a current listing so i cant supply the link...
> 
> 
> 
> ..ok, the auction has ended now, so I can provide a bit more info, if it helps
date this more ..
> 
> 
> my guess is it’s between 1957 and 1971 (end of decimal currency in the UK was
in Feb 1971  [we got free money at school !!] .  77/- being the price I am
guessing and assuming it was originally sold in the UK and not Oz for example)…
> 
>>

Dave, GGs

Back when I was using a spiral ratchet screwdriver, I would often lock it in
the extended position to shift a stubborn screw. The extra length makes a
huge difference. I gather you get an increase in torque from the extra
length. 

I can also vouch for the wood gouging ability of a runaway spiral ratchet.

Additionally I can vouch for it's ability to gouge into the fingers of
apprentice carpenters who ignored the advice of the apprentice master to
keep fingers clear of the spiral shaft. Healed nicely a long time ago, but
from time to time the scar is still visible.

Mick Dowling
Melbourne
Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.






On 20/05/2014 11:46 am, "Dave Nighswander" 
wrote:

> From: William Ghio
> 
>>> John Ruth shares his frustration.
>>> 2) My pet hate is finding one of these beauties BENT because Denny Dimwit
>>> used it to pry something. DOH !!!
> 
>> I thot that was why they extended... better leverage!
> 
> Bill, you are an echo from the past. After 50 some years of teaching people
> how to use tools,
> yup I started in 7th grade shop class, my least favorite situation is when
> someone spouts off with your premise and I think, ³Here we go again.²
> There have been times I used a 3 foot long screwdriver to remove or install a
> screw. Never because I needed more leverage. More reach certainly but never
> leverage.

Mal

Once you have collected all the spiral ratchet screwdrivers, you can start
of the other related Yankee stuff.

I picked this up at a HTPAA tool sale thinking that it was a modified
screwdriver, but is in fact a stock item. Not often seen in Australia, but
apparently common as muck in NA.

Pic here: http://tinyurl.com/mtszcrq

Mick Dowling
Melbourne
Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.




On 19/05/2014 8:35 pm, "Malcolm Thomas"  wrote:

> 
> ..what it is with these dang screwdrivers ??  I just want more of them :-)

That narrows it down a bit more, thanks.


Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 21 May 2014, at 3:19 am, Richard Wilson  wrote:

> Yankee 130A - Quick return, length 20@ open, with three bits, is listed at
40/9 (That's 40 shillings and nine pence, Paddy) in my Rycrofts catalogue of
1963
> 
> another 1000 pages of good stuff in there too
> 
> 
> so - after '63, but make alowance for this being a trade price. 
> 
> 
> Richard Wilson
> Yorkshireman Galoot
> in Northumberland
> 
>

Can't deny it helped, but it was not simply that a longer driver 
increased the torque.

But a longer driver might make it easier for you to increase torque as 
follows, by.

- applying a wrench to the blade of a screwdriver, increasing the 
leverage applied.
- applying more force, perhaps by getting a better grip
- applying the force square to the center of rotation (where the force 
acts on the driver) (i.e., getting a better angle on it).

My 0.02
Don

.
On 5/20/2014 5:31 PM, Mick Dowling wrote:
> Back when I was using a spiral ratchet screwdriver, I would often lock it in
> the extended position to shift a stubborn screw. The extra length makes a
> huge difference. I gather you get an increase in torque from the extra
> length.

Mick replied...

>  picked this up at a HTPAA tool sale thinking that it was a modified
> screwdriver, but is in fact a stock item. Not often seen in Australia, but
> apparently common as muck in NA.
> 
> Pic here: http://tinyurl.com/mtszcrq


Had not come across that one before Mick, interesting indeed…..


> Once you have collected all the spiral ratchet screwdrivers, you can start
> of the other related Yankee stuff.

Not all Yankee, but picked these up last night - another dry Telly night …


quite early this one I think ….ok for $10 I think…

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/early%20Goodell%20Bro
s.JPG">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/early%20Goodell%20Bros.
JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/early%20Goodell%20Bro
s2.JPG">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/early%20Goodell%20Bros
2.JPG

this’ll take a while to get here - from Canada via Alabama (thanks Doc !)…

https:/
/dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37914238/wood/NB%20100.JPG

Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

Whazzat den?

Ed Minch


On May 20, 2014, at 7:31 PM, Mick Dowling  wrote:

>  I gather you get an increase in torque from the extra
> length.

Ed Minch wrote: "Wait til you discover the true range of these things.  I even
found one that only tightens and does not loosen - made for assembly lines where
they
only tighten and don’t loosen."

I've got one like that, another inherited tool (though not one I use much any
more), and a favorite because the action is so sweet and it is conveniently
small.

It has a patent date of Oct. 7, 1884. And a mark "Decatur Coffin Co."

Not sure "assembly line" is quite the right term.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley

> Not all Yankee, but picked these up last night - another dry Telly 
> night …
> quite early this one I think ….ok for $10 I think…

I'd call it a good price.  These are the downright prettiest ones made.  
People
who know them like them a lot (that would be me).  Several are on eBay 
right now,
listed with starting bids from one at $6.99 to over $40.

Yours is quite early.  Easily dated, as Goodell Brothers became 
Goodell-Pratt in 1899.
There's a great page on these (and other Goodell Bros & Goodell-Pratt 
tools) at:

http://oldtoolheaven.com/related/goodell-pratt-
screwdrivers.htm">http://oldtoolheaven.com/related/goodell-pratt-
screwdrivers.htm

My first one was a #22 I picked up for a ridiculously cheap price.  The 
other is
like yours I picked up later from eBay.

Mike in Sacto

In the North book (lost in the move 5 years ago) there are a couple of models
that were made for assembly lines - mine is one of those.

Ed Minch





On May 21, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Thomas Conroy  wrote:

> Ed Minch wrote: "Wait til you discover the true range of these things.  I even
found one that only tightens and does not loosen - made for assembly lines where
they
> only tighten and don’t loosen."
> 
> I've got one like that, another inherited tool (though not one I use much any
more), and a favorite because the action is so sweet and it is conveniently
small.
> 
> It has a patent date of Oct. 7, 1884. And a mark "Decatur Coffin Co."
> 
> Not sure "assembly line" is quite the right term.
> 
> Tom Conroy
> Berkeley
>

Dear Mick and Galloot’s  past, current, and future.

>Dave, GGs
>Back when I was using a spiral ratchet screwdriver, I would often lock it in
>the extended position to shift a stubborn screw. The extra length makes a
>huge difference. I gather you get an increase in torque from the extra
>length. 

Okay guys I admit I was trying to be funny. I missed completely. 

>From: William Ghio
 >>>John Ruth shares his frustration. 
>>> 2) My pet hate is finding one of these beauties BENT because Denny Dimwit
used it to pry >>something. DOH !!!

>>I thot that was why they extended... better leverage!

>Bill, you are an echo from the past. After 50 some years of teaching people how
to use tools,
>yup I started in 7th grade shop class, my least favorite situation is when
someone spouts off >with your premise and I think, “Here we go again.”
>There have been times I used a 3 foot long screwdriver to remove or install a
screw. Never >because I needed more leverage. More reach certainly but never
leverage.
>That’s what a pipe wrench on the shank is for. 




Humor always gets me in trouble. I’ll try to explain the concept more
completely.
Torque is measured in foot/pounds or newton/meters. 
One foot/pound of torque on a bolt or screw is the rotational force applied by a
one pound weight on a one foot long lever.
One inch/pound of torque on a bolt or screw is the rotational force applied by a
one pound weight on a one inch long lever.
A screwdriver is used to rotate a screw by engaging the bit in the head of  the
screw. Gripping the handle and turning the handle around the center axis of the
shank rotates the screwdriver and the screw. Increasing the diameter of the
handle will increase the possible torque that the user is capable of applying
with the screwdriver.
Using a longer shank only extends the distance the handle is away from the head
of the screw. It has no effect on the rotational force.
If you are using the screwdriver as a chisel or to open paint cans you shouldn’t
be in this conversation.

You can access a nifty little graphic at Wikipedia that shows the concept in
color, here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torqu
e

Most very long screwdrivers DO in fact make it easier to work a screw because
the handles i=usually have a larger diameter handle = more torque.  So any
perception has a basis in fact .

Ed Minch





On May 22, 2014, at 12:55 PM, David Nighswander  wrote:

> Humor always gets me in trouble. I’ll try to explain the concept more
completely.
> Torque is measured in foot/pounds or newton/meters. 
> One foot/pound of torque on a bolt or screw is the rotational force applied by
a one pound weight on a one foot long lever.
> One inch/pound of torque on a bolt or screw is the rotational force applied by
a one pound weight on a one inch long lever.
> A screwdriver is used to rotate a screw by engaging the bit in the head of
the screw. Gripping the handle and turning the handle around the center axis of
the shank rotates the screwdriver and the screw. Increasing the diameter of the
handle will increase the possible torque that the user is capable of applying
with the screwdriver.
> Using a longer shank only extends the distance the handle is away from the
head of the screw. It has no effect on the rotational force.
> If you are using the screwdriver as a chisel or to open paint cans you
shouldn’t be in this conversation.

First, let's all take a second to enjoy that we get to read from one
of the few forums/newsgroups where there is serious and appropriate
discussion of screwdriver & turn-screw usage.

I'll throw in a slightly contrarian view. I first read it in
"Educational woodworking for home and school" (Park, Joseph C - 1908)
and have observed this to *sometimes* be the case when using longer
screwdrivers:

"A long screwdriver works much better than a short one. In theory one
should keep the screwdriver in line with the screw, but in actual
practice it wobbles, forming a circle as the screw turns, thus
increasing the leverage. Now, the longer the screwdriver the larger
the circle described, and the larger the circle the greater the
leverage."

Second whole paragraph from pg. 139:
https://archive.org/
details/educationalwood00park

Another way to phrase this: In most use you don't rotate the
screwdriver about its true axis but in a slight conical pattern which
extends the hypothetical lever to which torque is applied.

I want to clarify that I don't feel this is true for a lot of
screwdriver use, especially where the second hand grasps the shaft to
keep it straight.

Brian Rytel


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Ed Minch  wrote:
> Most very long screwdrivers DO in fact make it easier to work a screw because
the handles i=usually have a larger diameter handle = more torque.  So any
perception has a basis in fact .
>
> Ed Minch


> On May 22, 2014, at 12:55 PM, David Nighswander 
wrote:
>> A screwdriver is used to rotate a screw by engaging the bit in the head of
the screw. Gripping the handle and turning the handle around the center axis of
the shank rotates the screwdriver and the screw. Increasing the diameter of the
handle will increase the possible torque that the user is capable of applying
with the screwdriver.
>> Using a longer shank only extends the distance the handle is away from the
head of the screw. It has no effect on the rotational force.
>> If you are using the screwdriver as a chisel or to open paint cans you
shouldn’t be in this conversation.

Brian

I share your sentiments on the forum and in the spirit of "serious and
appropriate” discussion I would like to disagree

On May 22, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Brian Rytel  wrote:

> "A long screwdriver works much better than a short one. In theory one
> should keep the screwdriver in line with the screw, but in actual
> practice it wobbles, forming a circle as the screw turns, thus
> increasing the leverage. Now, the longer the screwdriver the larger
> the circle described, and the larger the circle the greater the
> leverage."
> 
> Second whole paragraph from pg. 139:
> https://archive.or
g/details/educationalwood00park
> 
> Another way to phrase this: In most use you don't rotate the
> screwdriver about its true axis but in a slight conical pattern which
> extends the hypothetical lever to which torque is applied.


I agree that he is talking about conical movement, but I would posit that the
longer the shaft the easier it is to keep the screwdriver upright and aligned so
that the proscribed arc is no bigger.  And also I don’t think the conical
movement increases the lever - you would have to have a wimble brace to do that
where the extremities of your hands are working against each other in a larger
circle.

Ed Minch

Dave

Screwdriver or chisel to open a paint can. It depends. I wouldn't use a
sharp chisel, or at least not one of my sharp chisels. Screwdriver, I
wouldn't recommend a Philips head.

Ducking......

Mick Dowling


On 23/05/2014 2:55 am, "Dave Nighswander" 
wrote:

> If you are using the screwdriver as a chisel or to open paint cans you
> shouldn¹t be in this conversation.
> 
> You can access a nifty little graphic at Wikipedia that shows the concept in
> color, here. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor
que
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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> http://rucku
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Not even good for that!

I can run AND I can hide!
Don

On 5/22/2014 8:36 PM, Mick Dowling wrote:
> Screwdriver or chisel to open a paint can. It depends. I wouldn't use a
> sharp chisel, or at least not one of my sharp chisels. Screwdriver, I
> wouldn't recommend a Philips head.

> Screwdriver or chisel to open a paint can. It depends.

Heh!  I picked up a screwdriver that somebody modified to make it
a proper tool for opening paint cans.  Bent the end of the tip til
it was just like a commercial paint can opener.  Harder to lose, I
'spect, easier to find in the shop, better handle to grasp.

Mike in Sacto

>From: Michael Blair






>> Screwdriver or chisel to open a paint can. It depends.

>Heh!  I picked up a screwdriver that somebody modified to make it
>a proper tool for opening paint cans.  Bent the end of the tip til
>it was just like a commercial paint can opener.  Harder to lose, I
>'spect, easier to find in the shop, better handle to grasp.

>Mike in Sacto



Mike now has a specific tool used to open paint cans. 
An entirely different kettle of fish. 
And I might add an excellent excuse/reason for creating a rack for different
sizes of paint can openers. Perhaps we can turn a series of wooden handles for
our various and sundry paint can openers. Then we can proceed to discuss the
proper angle of the end of the paint can opener. Which of course will proceed to
what grit should the tip be honed to. Then we can discuss hardness and alloys of
a proper paint can opener. Followed by whether a corrugated paint can opener
improves the action of the original design. The choice of socketed or tanged
paint can openers will segue into the various shapes and sizes of ferrules for
tanged handles. Soon descending into what material is best for the ferrule.
Should it be brass, steel, copper, or unobtainium. Quickly shifting focus the
discussion changes to finish. Is shellac the truly best finish or should it be
one of the newer polywhatsits.
Retirement is awesome. On any other Friday, at this time, I would have been
sitting in another boring meeting discussing absolutely useless ideas and
creating meaningless reams of documents.
This is much better.

>From: James Thompson


>Now you are starting to sound like me.

Birds of a feather…..

> And I might add an excellent excuse/reason for creating a rack for
> different sizes of paint can openers. Perhaps we can turn a series of
> wooden handles for our various and sundry paint can openers. Then we
> can proceed to discuss...

But first, should we use USA made screwdrivers because the materials are
better, or should we use screwdrivers made in Sri Lanka because they 
aren't
good enough for our purposes?  And doesn't LN make an optimum paint can
opener? I have actually accumulated three different styles of paint can
opener, and now that I have a cabinet for paints and such, I can find 
all
of them.

> Retirement is awesome. On any other Friday, at this time, I would have
> been sitting in another boring meeting discussing absolutely useless
> ideas and creating meaningless reams of documents.
> This is much better.

I had daily morning meetings as well as the Big meeting on Wednesdays.
Management had a day long meeting every Thursday.  It's a great relief
not to be bothered with any of them!  I can't quite call myself retired
yet, but the only bosses are me and the customer.  Yay!

Mike in Sacto

Now I am wondering if I should make my paint can openers with round, or
hexagonal, or octagonal handles? Perhaps even an oval shape? Domestic hardwood,
or exotic? I have a small stash of Brazilian Rosewood that I have been saving
for many years now, so maybe this is the occasion to use some of it. Ebony would
be cool. Egad! What would I give for a hunk of ivory?

This would be a good excuse to break out the carving tools and carve little
faces and stuff on the top of the handles.  The possibilities are endless, and
will require much study and discussion. I don't want to rush into this. With a
little patience I can make this last for years.


On May 23, 2014, at 9:41 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

>> And I might add an excellent excuse/reason for creating a rack for
>> different sizes of paint can openers. Perhaps we can turn a series of
>> wooden handles for our various and sundry paint can openers. Then we
>> can proceed to discuss...
> 
> But first, should we use USA made screwdrivers because the materials are
> better, or should we use screwdrivers made in Sri Lanka because they aren't
> good enough for our purposes?  And doesn't LN make an optimum paint can
> opener? I have actually accumulated three different styles of paint can
> opener, and now that I have a cabinet for paints and such, I can find all
> of them.
> 
>> Retirement is awesome. On any other Friday, at this time, I would have
>> been sitting in another boring meeting discussing absolutely useless
>> ideas and creating meaningless reams of documents.
>> This is much better.
> 
> I had daily morning meetings as well as the Big meeting on Wednesdays.
> Management had a day long meeting every Thursday.  It's a great relief
> not to be bothered with any of them!  I can't quite call myself retired
> yet, but the only bosses are me and the customer.  Yay!
> 
> Mike in Sacto
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

It's seriously under-rated. But there are those who like to work for a 
living, and that's good too, 'cause they don't make it to the Friday 
morning garge sale openings!

Don

On 5/23/2014 9:46 AM, David Nighswander wrote:
> Retirement is awesome. On any other Friday, at this time, I would have been
sitting in another boring meeting discussing absolutely useless ideas and
creating meaningless reams of documents.
> This is much better.

On May 23, 2014, at 1:56 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> It's seriously under-rated.

When you retire, you won’t believe you had the time to go to work

Ed Minch

Ed wrote:  "When you retire, you won’t believe you had the time to go to
work"

I've heard the joke many times about a guy who retired. After a few months,
he went and found a part time job. When asked why, he said, I needed to go
back to work to get some rest.

I've been unemployed since March 14, a victim of corporate downsizing.
Thanks to a generous severance package, I've had the luxury of enjoying a
sample of retirement before beginning my new job at the beginning of July.
During this time, I think I have worked harder than I ever have in my life
getting caught up on a lot of home projects and helping friends and
relatives with stuff. I'm ready to go back to work and get some rest.

Doc


-- 
John Holladay
205-229-8484
docholladay0820@g...
Sent from Gmail Mobile on iOS

On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Malcolm Thomas 
wrote:

> today received a small Millers Falls No 55 ratchet screwdriver.....
> There is a small knurled knob at the base of the shank, where the shank
> disappears into the ratchet mechanism ahead of the handle.  This knob
> allows you to slowly drive (or remove) the screw just using your thumb and
> forefinger, whilst the small elegantly shaped rosewood handle sits snugly
> and stationary in the palm of your hand.  I have never seen anything like
> it before.....true genius.
>

Thought I had one of these at home, but took a few days to get to it.  Of
course, mine is not in fine condition either.

Yankee #15, same features, as seen here, in a 15 year older catalog

http://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Ratchet-Screwdriver-North-
Brothers/dp/B005DGXN32">http://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Ratchet-Screwdriver-North-
Brothers/dp/B005DGXN32


Just got my copy of the Yankee book from Dave Erickson over the weekend, it
may be in there too, but I have only cracked the cover so far.

Kirk, actually in HMB for a while.