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247376 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Interesting from Paul Sellers |
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994 4116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994 4116875 |
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247377 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Oh, no! Say it isn't so. Paul Sellers placing his very sharp planes on the bench with the blade touching the surface of the bench. Do you suppose he just never reads the list, and doesn't know you are not supposed to do that? Or maybe some other folks don't know what he knows? Maybe??? On Apr 23, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Ron Harper |
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247378 | Sam DeSocio <samdesocio@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding. I do agree that you can make amazing things we low tech tools. Tom Fidgen is a great example of a modern artisan working with very traditional tools. On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ron Harper |
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247379 | Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
He does both, actually. I've watched some of his other videos and he often has the planes resting on a piece of scrap. I enjoy his videos. They're low-key and very accessible. Not keen on the way he sharpens, but it works for him. Dwight |
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247381 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio |
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247382 | Sam DeSocio <samdesocio@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Yeah all great examples. I think it might be the British firm upper lip that pits him at odds with more folks. I'm really glad he teaches the way he does. On Apr 23, 2014 1:40 PM, "Ron Harper" |
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247383 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
I think another issue is that both he and Schwarz tell us that we really can make gorgeous furniture using a very few finely tuned hand tools. Some of us do not lke being told we have way more tools than we really need. On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio |
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247384 | John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
> > Ron wrote: "some of us do not lke being told we have way more tools > than we really need." I think that maybe "NEED" is not really to right word. For me, I enjoy tools in and of themselves. I enjoy looking at how they work/function and how they are made. I enjoy studying the inventive and ingenious designs. Most of the tools that I have, I do use. However, many more pass through in one way or another mostly because I find them interesting. I'll buy them, and learn about them. If I really like them, I'll keep them. If not, I let them move on, mostly because of a lack of space and don't have room to have a tool museum. Still, "NEED" is not really the right word. More of a simple fascination and enjoyment of tools. This applies to most all kinds of tools, including kitchen, mechanic, metal working, electrical and woodworking tools. However, I have little to zero appreciation for plumbing tools - mostly because I hate plumbing work. I can fix one leak and cause three new ones at the same time. I'll leave that to the pros. Doc -- John Holladay 205-229-8484 docholladay0820@g... Sent from Gmail Mobile on iOS |
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247386 | branson <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑23 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
>>Ron wrote: "some of us do not lke being told we have way more tools than we really need." > I think that maybe "NEED" is not really to right word. For me, I enjoy tools in and of themselves. "Need" is a bit strong, I agree. And I, too, enjoy what Doc sums up as " a simple fascination and enjoyment of tools." In my case, mostly old tools -- they help me grasp the work of the craftsmen and common citizens who came before us, bring me closer to their lives. There is a large divide, though, I think, between actual improvement and a fascination for new technology. Looking at the shavings that came off all the planes in the video, it seemed obvious that there was actually little, if any, difference in performance. I think he had in mind to say that a high end plane (or other tool) doesn't make a better craftsman. Sometimes, perhaps the reverse is true, when one comes to depend on the machine more than one's skill. I appreciate that sentiment. Looking to buy a back saw years ago, I asked the seller if it cut true. He told me, "depends on the carpenter." Mike in Sacto |
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247390 | "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> | 2014‑04‑24 | RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Well he is plaining a piece of possibly air dried oak with easy to plane rising grain and getting good results, not surprising really. I f he was planeing something with reversing grain things might have been different. Pete -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto :oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ron Harper Sent: 23 April 2014 15:55 To: oldtools@r... Subject: [OldTools] Interesting from Paul Sellers https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994 4116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994 4116875 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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247391 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Sam DeSocio wrote: > I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like > Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding. I wish Paul Sellers had the confidence to simply provide woodworking instruction without feeling the need to (strongly) contrast his technique with those of an unnamed "them" who have done all sorts of evil things. He seems to be evangelising against some kind of strawman opposition, and it's not helpful. BugBear |
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247393 | Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Galootinous Multitudes, I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed the eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then proceeded to demonstrate, to my horror. Ahem...slight creative license there. I didn't like what I was hearing/observing because I'm still learning what works best for me and it went against dogma (the horror part). Then the little voice says, "Grasshopper, remain open to new ideas." All that to say simply that I take what's useful from the message (video) and don't worry about killing the messanger. Mr. Seller's overall approach is low-key and not strident. I don't think there is any prominent woodworker/toolmaker/galootish savant who doesn't raise somebody's hackles. YMMV. Regards, Dwight On Thursday, April 24, 2014, paul womack |
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247394 | "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> | 2014‑04‑24 | RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Dwight writes - > I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed the eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then proceeded to demonstrate While I personally do not use Mr. Sellers method, many of the wooden bench planes I've owned over the years came with irons that had a slightly convex bezel. Not sure that validates the approach historically but they certainly appeared to have been purposefully done. However I can't say the same for chisels. Dennis Heyza Macomb MI |
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247395 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On 04/24/14, paul womack wrote: Sam DeSocio wrote: > I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like > Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding. I wish Paul Sellers had the confidence to simply provide woodworking instruction without feeling the need to (strongly) contrast his technique with those of an unnamed "them" who have done all sorts of evil things. He seems to be evangelising against some kind of strawman opposition, and it's not helpful. |
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247401 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
I'm wondering what Sellers' sharpening techniques are, that people seem unhappy with them. Haven't seen his sharpening demos, so I don't know what to think. Mike in Sacto |
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247402 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Dennis Heyza wrote: > Dwight writes - > >> I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed the eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then proceeded to demonstrate > > While I personally do not use Mr. Sellers method, many of the wooden bench planes I've owned over the years came with irons that had a slightly convex bezel. Not sure that validates the approach historically but they certainly appeared to have been purposefully done. I don't think so; the commonest technique in reference material from 1830-1970 is "double bevel" , where you use a coarse process (e.g. grinding) at around 25 degrees and a fine process (e.g. natural oilstone) at 30. If you do this by hand, with a bit of slop, the bevel gets a bit convex. So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double bevel sharpening. Indeed, many of the texts have nice illustrations of round bevels with captions along the line of "when it's looks like this, is may be time to regrind" So, the expectation was that flat double bevels where the goal, but that convexity would develop naturally. When the convexity becomes excessive, remove it. So any tool found in the wild would simply be on a point between these two extremes from "freshly ground" to "convex and needs rerinding". BugBear |
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247404 | Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack |
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247396 | "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
I find it entertaining that the Brit prefers inch standard. |
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247406 | Kevin Bock <nashbok@y...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air. I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general. I got the galoot bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and, occasionally, have done some woodworking. One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is inferior. You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results. LN or LV are the only planes worth anything. Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood. I've thought about why this is for a while now, and I have two theories: 1. There are a number of woodworking personalities who I think, frankly, don't have much to contribute to the woodworking community (and there are a lot of names I could put here). But they've managed to make their career in writing or talking about ww. And so they delve into the minutiae of toolery and woodworking and strive to get their plane tuned so finely they could circumcise a flea blindfolded. Then they release a 12 DVD box set on plane tuning and flea anatomy. As a newbie, I found this incredibly frustrating. I didn't want to "waste" money on a tool that was inferior and I had no real clue how on earth I would ever get a plane tuned properly, or a chisel perfectly flat, without spending hundreds of dollars on equipment. 2. The other issue is just the sales pitch from tool makers. And that's understandable. They're just trying to sell their product. I mean, you never trust someone who works on commission. I went to a LN hand tool event and came away thinking the whole company was made of anal retentive woodworkers. Like OCD was prerequisite for employment. The rep was using his bevel up plane to and he says it's getting dull. So he takes it over to his $1k sharpening bench, flattens his 10,000 grit water stone with a $150 diamond plate, then uses a Veritas sharpenting jig to run his blade over the water stone -- get this -- TWICE. And then he puts it back into his plane, goes back to his other $1000 workbench, gets out his $50 1oz. hammer and taps away at the blade trying to get it just right so he can take his nearly invisible shavings. 3. Bonus point. The internet is alive with a lot of opinions (like mine) and not a lot of substance when it comes to ww and tools. Newbies beware... When I came across Paul Sellers saying you could use a $10 chisel set from Aldi to get perfectly fine results I was thrilled. It so flew in the face of the general consensus of the woodworking carpet-baggers. I watched almost all of his videos in the next few days. I couldn't enough. It was liberating. D-Day all over again. BTW, My poster boy for tool-snobbery is Mr. Schwarz. I mean, the guy talks about his tools like you'd expect a Star Bucks barista hippster to talk about his coffee....and turns his nose up anything that wasn't brewed from mountain grown organic coffee beans gathered by a Columbian coffee bean picking union composed exclusively of rainforest natives living in their ancestral manner and dress. And then you've got Flo working over at the truck stop serving up coffee for $.50 a cup. I mean, both have caffeine, and both will wake you up. The StarBucks might be a little stronger but they both do the job. It's really what you prefer. And I don't mean to single out Schwarz (even though I just did) he is just the first one who comes to mind for me. I expect to walk into Star Bucks one day and see Schwarz sitting their, with his LN #8, sipping his Espresso, and typing away at his Mac for his next blogpost on Popular woodoworking about getting your plane so sharp it cuts the wood fibers on a quantum level. Schwarz has some good things to say. I just think he's a bit of a tool snob. End of rant. Thanks for listening. I apologize to everyone I've offended. Kevin On Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:41 AM, Dwight Beebe |
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247408 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
With respect On 2014-04-24 09:39, Dwight Beebe wrote: > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack |
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247409 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Don't get down off the soapbox. I have preached much the same sermon for a long time. But preaching to the choir is often unproductive. Stay with it. I am too tired to carry on the fight. On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Kevin Bock |
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247410 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On 04/24/14, Kevin Bock wrote: Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air. I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general. I got the galoot bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and, occasionally, have done some woodworking. One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is inferior. You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results. LN or LV are the only planes worth anything. Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood. |
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247411 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On 04/24/14, Steve Reynolds wrote: On 04/24/14, Kevin Bock wrote: Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air. I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general. I got the galoot bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and, occasionally, have done some woodworking. One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is inferior. You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results. LN or LV are the only planes worth anything. Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood. |
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247412 | RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On 4/24/2014 1:50 PM, JAMES THOMPSON wrote: > Don't get down off the soapbox. I have preached much the same sermon for a long time. But preaching to the choir is often unproductive. Stay with it. I am too tired to carry on the fight. > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Kevin Bock |
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247416 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
> It's not just woodworking. ANY hobby that is equipment-intensive will > break down into tribes along a spectrum from those who believe that > there is a sacred set of things that are required and everything else > is worthless trash... Ain't it the truth. I like guns and shooting. When I was in high school, I read every gun magazine I could lay my hands on, and they began to look just like this. They had to be really light weight. I began to wonder about this idea, since I was carrying, among other rifles, an arsenal converted to .22 caliber WW I vintage Enfield. I wandered over the hills all day, even in Bakersfield summers carrying that gun and had no problems doing so -- even though I weighed in at 125 pounds. The rifle weighs over 10 pounds. Shoots really straight. "You can't expect to get the job done on deer with anything less than a .308. News to me. My current deer rifle is a Winchester '73 in .44/40. "But that won't work on anything over 100 yards." News flash: The mountains where I hunt you can't see a hundred yards away. Last deer I took was around 50 feet away. Mike in Sacto |
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247417 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
I agree Bob Here is a novel idea.. Take an old beater chisel or an old Stanley plane iron. Use Sellers method one time.. It will take 5 minutes the first time if the back needs any work. Check the result. Then lets talk? On Thursday, April 24, 2014, RH Hutchins |
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247418 | Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> | 2014‑04‑24 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Hello Kevin Couldn't agree more. When it comes to woodworking, it's not about the tools. The old saying 'tools don't make a tradesman', is an absolute. But when it comes to collecting tools, it is most certainly only about the tools! Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. On 25/04/2014 4:33 am, "Kevin Bock" |
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247421 | Mark Lovett Wells <mark@m...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Kevin Bock |
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247422 | "John M. Johnston" <sgt42rhr@a...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Use method A or B, or even C....each will work. Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she kissed the cow. J~ John M. Johnston “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P. On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:48 PM, Ron Harper |
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247461 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is inferior. Yeah, that is what they all spout, whilst sitting on their butts. Funny thing about that. I don't see any of them knee deep in shavings of any kind. Ever. People who think they can "buy their way in" make me laugh out loud. People who believe in the snobs, are just chumps, suckers, Marks. If you can't get a type 6 to 18 Bailey plane to work and work stunningly? Boxcar loads of shavings in just about any wood? End grain too? You are a pisspoor example of a woodworker, plain and simple. OH PS, if you come up with a better plane adjustment scheme than Leonard Bailey? One that will last over 150 years and be copied by everyone in the business? You be sure to let me know. PPS If you genuinely think you can beat out my old beater planes? Actual performance in grueling real life work? Please come over here and show me. Please. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.n et/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcr est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7391 - Release Date: 04/24/14 |
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247466 | Christopher Swingley <cswingle@s...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Scott, On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:56 AM, scott grandstaff |
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247467 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
On Friday, April 25, 2014, scott grandstaff |
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247469 | Mark MacCauley <maccauley6218@h...> | 2014‑04‑25 | RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
First off, this is my first reply so if something's wrong, it's probably me. I only started in this hobby two years ago and Paul Sellers Workbench was my first major project (that I didn't screw up, anyways). I enjoy watching his videos and that's how I made the workbench (all three of them [well, i'm still making one of the three]). I do sense a little bit of the "suggestive" tone but I now enough experienced people in this hobby to where they can tell me what to take in and what not to. I personally prefer older hand tools whenever I need them, in a lot of cases they're more accurate (in some cases), got more character, and usually are cheaper. My aunt gave me a jointer plane that belonged to my great grandfather, so I brought it to school and, relying heavily on my teachers experience, we had it set up and working good as new (minus a broken handle) in no time. I don't by any means need a brand new plane and will most likely never get one. I like the aforementioned qualities of old tools and am in no position to be shelling out lots of money to buy something new. Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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247468 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
> I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt > about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all he's > got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck up > and worship anything on video This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me. They are both huge promoters of the craft. Ain't we better than that? > > -- > ******************************* > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7391 - Release Date: 04/24/ > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archi ve/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://rucku s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > |
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247470 | Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Interesting thread! Paul Sellers would fit right in here! Several years ago, SWMBO bought me his DVD series. Though I am already familiar with many of his topics, it is an excellent source/resource foe seeing techniques. The DVD was made a few years before he gained his notoriety regarding his tool suggestions and in the DVD he uses the very tools he speaks of. I recently completed a baby changing table and in rethinking the project, the most enjoyable tools used were those either given to me by my father, or gathered up by me when he passed. Those included Stanley trammels, a 60-1/2 block plane and a no-name crosscut. Not valuable except in a sentimental way, but very workman like! Of these, the trammels more than anything gave me the ability to do a layout very accurately that would have been botched by measuring. The trammels represent best what Sellers is: a traditionally trained woodworker that knows tools and knows/teaches techniques that are fading with years. My LN & LV tools are nice, but my Bedrocks and Baileys give nearly the same results. Taking time to set them up (as LV & LN are supplied) and results are the same. There is no modern saw that is the equivalent of my Disston #16. No modern chisel is the equal of the Mathison, or Bergs, etc., that I've picked up through the years. Sellers is a woodworking personality whether he like it or not and many accept his word in the same manner as many of the talking heads. Whether you agree or disagree with him (I agree), they all are helping our hobby/professions. Anthony M. Zaffuto Metaltech, Inc. (814) 375-9399 |
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247471 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑04‑25 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Yeah, like the Hypocritical oath says, "First do no harm." I don't see Sellers as doing any harm. I think he probably does some good. So I have no bone to pick with him. Many people find that they can turn a phrase that will turn a dollar, and they go for it. I have no problem with that either. I am not afraid that these people will mess the minds of the unsuspecting. I used to BE unsuspecting. On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:34 PM, Tony Zaffuto |
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247472 | Steve Jones <stjones@k...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
GGs; I remember when it was a popular pastime to sit around and take shots at Ian Kirby.... Steve in Kokomo On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 7:50 PM, JAMES THOMPSON |
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247475 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
There may be some envy there, for some folks. But I can't help wonder if some posts are simply venting some irritation at having been shilled by some of the contemporary promoters of woodworking tools and products, or seeing others getting shilled. I'm not envious because I'm retired and can finally spend time doing things I like that I put off too much when I was younger. But I do regret having made some purchases because some expert or other promoted a product (which I didn't need) as the best thing since sliced bread, and I was gullible and ignorant enough to believe it. I am learning better now, and spending less, in part because I have realized that I can find some old tools at reasonable prices and make them perform as well or better than I can expect. That is helped by the many internet sources, including this list and its precious archive, but especially the many writers of previous generations who actually worked the trades and are no longer living, hence have nothing to sell me. But in the meanwhile, as example, I accumulated a supply of sharpening jigs, oilstone, waterstones - diamond even - and hardly use quite a few of them... I appreciate the Schwarz, St Roy and Sellars et al when when they teach us how to do things, sharing their skill and experience, and especially when they show us how to get by with what's cheap and readily available! Not so much if they're clearly promoting the latest geegaw.... I go back to Kremov, Tage Frid, Joyce, Hasluck and others just because they understood the tools of the trade and explained how they made them work. As example, Tage Frid saying you really only need rip bowsaws makes a huge impact on somebody starting out. Quite the opposite of suggesting you need a stable of 12 saws! .But to be fair, one only needs so many demos of dovetailing, sawing, etc., so the contemporary writers have to keep finding things to show us, just like the manufacturers & retailers have to keep coming up with new things to sell to us. It's the way of the world, at least in this lifetime... FWIW, my C$0.02 Don On 4/25/2014 4:22 PM, Ron Harper wrote: > This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might > suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have > figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue > stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me. |
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247481 | Wesley Groot <wesg@e...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
GG's And lest we forget when "Nahm" Abrahms was the enemy? Who cares *who* it is that inspires non-woodworkers to become woodworkers? And Scott, if your "life's work" is truly held on a server as 1's and 0's, maybe you might want to cut and paste your life's work into a blog or print it in a book? Just remember that a million newbie yuppy bastahds can buy all the high tech yuppy bastahd tools they want and it don't impact your life in the least. Zero, nada zilch. Why the anger? Live and let live, brethren. Cheers, Wes > On Apr 25, 2014, at 7:14 PM, Steve Jones |
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247483 | Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Dwight Beebe wrote: "....I don't think there is any prominent woodworker/toolmaker/galootish savant who doesn't raise somebody's hackles...." Jim Kingshott? Alan Peters? And after a moment's consideration: Lift a glass to those who went before. Tom Conroy 'Here's tae us. Wha's like us? Damn few--- and they're a' deid." ---Scottish army toast. |
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247489 | Steve Jones <stjones@k...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
What he said.... Steve in Kokomo On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Wesley Groot |
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247490 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Oops On 2014-04-25 15:22, Ron Harper wrote: >> I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt >> about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all he's >> got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck up >> and worship anything on video > > > > This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might > suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have > figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue > stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me. They are > both huge promoters of the craft. Ain't we better than that? We appear to have crossed the line into an area of faith rather than logic. I think the list moms should shut this thread down now. Brent -- Brent Beach Victoria, BC, Canada |
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247492 | Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Sent from my iPad > On Apr 26, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Brent Beach |
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247498 | Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> | 2014‑04‑26 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
Whoa!!!!! I did not say that at all. I believe Scott did,but it for sure was NOT me. On Saturday, April 26, 2014, Brent Beach |
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247503 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑27 | Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers |
What nobody seems to have noticed is the header here. It says: "Off list" This was a back channel email that somehow got misdirected to the list. It wasn't meant to be a list topic, and it shouldn't be a list topic. So maybe those who happened to overhear *somebody else's conversation* ought to let it go. Mike in Sacto |
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247510 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑27 | Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
Hey Max, getting paid $.10 an hour for recreation ain't a bad deal. I think I know the pair of dividers you're talking about. Nice and heavy critter. I have one I found in the bottom of an old tool chest I picked up many years ago. Love them. Dividers are subtly addictive tools. Not to gloat too much, I actually have a 24 inch pair of blacksmith made dividers. And once I get my shop organized I'll look around for the drawings and rubbings I made of the wooden dividers James Marshall made and used in making the saw mill where gold was discovered. > If I could return to the question that spawned all of this, how much > better does a stair (dado) saw work than ye olde backsaw (tenon saw, > Geoff)? I used to think that I needed one, but I've been cutting a > fair amount of stopped dados (not grooves) with a backsaw without > incident. Judging from the number of shop made antique stair (or dado) saws around, they have an advantage over the back saw -- you know, the motherhood of necessity and all that. I have one that very rarely gets used (by Disston). One advantage is that, mine at least, is adjustable for depth of cut. When it bottoms out, you're done. One less thing to think about, and the less you have to think, the fewer mistakes you make. There's also better control since both hands can be used. Depending on the number and length of the dados to be made, the stair saw might lose some of its advantage. If you are making dados for a staircase, though, duplicating the depth of cut makes the stair saw a real champ. Mike in Sacto |
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247511 | Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> | 2014‑04‑27 | RE: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
Max writes: > If I could return to the question that spawned all of this, how much better does a stair (dado) saw work than > ye olde backsaw (tenon saw, Geoff)? I used to think that I needed one, but I've been cutting a fair amount of > stopped dados (not grooves) with a backsaw without incident. There's the tell right there. If you're already proficient and comfortable with your technique, the only reason I see to change is to make it noticeably speedier or cleaner. Or to acquire new tools. > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8byIIIK7wx9LW9FNEdGU3RIUU0/edit?usp= docslist_api">https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8byIIIK7wx9LW9FNEdGU3RIUU0/edit?u sp=docslist_api > I have a few pair of those dividers, and I think you'll like them. No harm in keeping a couple pair in various toolboxes and over everyworkbench. -T ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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247512 | JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> | 2014‑04‑27 | Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
The picture shows a very well made pencil divider. I have 2 of them, one made by Starrett, the other made by Tumico. Tumico sounds like a foreign name, but it's an acronym for Tubular Micrometer Company. They make (made?) fine tools. On Apr 27, 2014, at 3:50 AM, Michael Blair |
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247528 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2014‑04‑27 | Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
Legend has it the Swedes have a saying. If you can't build it with an ax, you can't build it. Cutting dadoes with a backsaw is perfectly legitimate. Cutting them with a Disston #7 is too and a clever guy can do that as well. Stairsaws are pretty sexy though, and not that hard to build. When you get around to it. "Buying stuff only when you absolutely have to", its the best way. Building for yourself is like nothing else, and a stairsaw is a fine project you will savor a long long time. Patience stings. In time you will be up to your neck in dividers and compasses of all kinds. They are not hard to find or expensive if you've got 1/2 a brain, and I know you do. The waiting for it to start is not easy, sorry. But spring is almost here in the norther hemisphere, and the yard sales are a comin! The swap meet will be filled with hopeful sellers, their stuff spread out on old blankets. Ahhhhhhhhh can't you just smell it from here? The Galoot battle cry ringing out across our minds in the early morning Good tools cheap........ Good tools cheap....... yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.n et/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcr est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7401 - Release Date: 04/26/14 |
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247533 | Maxwithers <maxwithers@g...> | 2014‑04‑28 | Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
On Apr 27, 2014, at 1:00 PM, scott grandstaff |
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247545 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2014‑04‑28 | Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves. |
Maxwithers wrote: > Anyway, I went back to the stair saw because it is an example of a tool I really thought I needed at first, but turned out not to, yet. And yes I have realized that it would be fun to make. It's on the list. The list is long. I think you said a whole bunch, right there. Many jobs can be done with minimal/simple tools. But in many cases specialised tools exist that make the jobs easier and/or faster. Personally I find specialised tools quite fascinating, the more specialised the better. But they're very rarely *neccessary*. But then, woodworking as a hobby isn't necessary either. So I say that the Scandinavians working green wood with nothing but an axe, and the sash window makers with their assemblage of super specialised planes and fixtures can get along fine. We're all friends, at least here on the Porch. BugBear |
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247547 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2014‑04‑28 | Re: Stair saws |
On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Michael Blair wrote: > > With over 300 hours of research, we still cannot say what Russian cooper's > tools looked like, nor what constituted a necessary set. I could assemble > an accurate set for Spanish, French, Portuguese, German, English and > American coopers, but so far, nothing has shown up for Russian cooper's > tools of the early 1800s. > > Have you looked at "Woodworking in Estonia"? (Which, along with “The Wheelwright’s Shop” and “With Hammer in Hand” are supposedly Roy Underhill's three favorite woodworking books). Very hard to come by, but worth tracking down. You might be able to get it through inter library loan from a university library. I had our library copy in my office but looks like I returned it, but I am sure it has a section on coopering. Just looked it up again and saw a description that said it focuses on woodworking on an island off the coast of Estonia which was basically in a time warp, so did everything the old way. Geographic isolation has its benefits. Brian |
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247550 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2014‑04‑28 | Re: Stair saws |
Thanks for the pointer, Brian. It may be the best bet. Turns out that the author, Aleksi︠e︡ĭ Aleksandrovich Bobrinskīĭ, was born in 1852, died in 1927, and the book was published in 1910. The dates indicate that what he wrote ought to show the tools of the early period needed for the research. I've looked at some Estonian cooper's tools, and they seemed probable. The Library of Congress has a copy or two, but I can't find any for sale. Might need to contact Underhill. LOL. I'm missing one of his three favorite books. Gratefully, Mike in Sacto |
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