OldTools Archive
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273354 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Gentle Galoots, Please help me design a box or case for a large oilstone that I inherited from my father. I believe it was previously owned by his father, who passes literally decades before I was born. I want to make s box with a hinged lid. A major goal is to preserve the stone for the next generation. The stone is 14" long by 3-7/8" wide by 2-3/8" high at the ends. ( The center is dished by a considerable amount, perhaps 1/2" Flattening is not yet on the agenda.) It was formerly in a crude wooden half-box formed by nailing sides and ends onto a board. The good feature was that excess oil could ooze out between the bottom and the sides, though eventually the whole thing was crumbly due to using excessive miscellaneous oils over its many years. I have some used 3/4" "real" mahogany boards about 3-1/2" wide and 7 feet long. I also have a used 4-quarter old-growth southern longleaf yellow pine plank which is larger than the stone. These should clean up nicely with some scraping. Current thinking is to make the long sides of the mahogany with dovetails along the bottom edge. The questions are: What should the ends of the lower half of the box look like, in terms of design for likely wood movement? Should the bottom of the box extend out beyond the ends? ( I can't see a need to clamp a stone this large to the bench, but would like to hear if others find this useful. ) What should the lid be like, other than I have a suitable brass piano hinge? Should I just hollow out a big chunk of oak as a one-piece base, and call it at that? ( I have a suitable oak log. ) How have other Galoots approached the design of boxes for large whetstones? Thanks in advance, John Ruth |
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273355 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
John has some tricky design issues to work through... > On 6 Apr 2021, at 09:03, John Ruth |
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273356 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:03 AM, John Ruth |
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273357 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Richard Wilson |
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273358 | Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Ed Wow, I have the cousin! I have similar stone in the bottom half of a box. Stone doesn’t have a parallel, straight, or perpendicular line to it. Face is of course dished. Never used it. I went across to the dark side years ago (diamond stones). Mick Dowling , |
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273359 | Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Ed, Richard Did you guys start this thread to drag me out into the open! I’ve written and said this so many times over the years that if you were to go into the archives you might be able to find the next few sentences already posted by me in a previous rant. I have never cracked open a long dead tradesmans tool box, shoved a hand in, ouch, dragged out a bloody partially severed finger, and thought ‘man that old bloke kept his stuff sharp’. Chisels, plane blades, rounded over and in need of serious remedial grinding. Saws! Uneven teeth, uneven set. If you could ask one of these long dead oldtimers ‘how’s your fleam working’, you’d probably get a smack across the chops. But they pumped out incredible work. That’s enough. Need a rest now. Seeing stars, that’s not good. Mick Dowling Melbourne Australia |
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273360 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
It’s been a long held view here. Amongst all the angst at a sharp length being too many angstroms in thickness there is a wide thread of reality needed. Some people enjoy producing that edge that has the sharpness of obsydian, and they obsess and spend mighty dollars (unit of foreign currency,. Jeff) in pursuit of the means of obtaining a marvellous edge. Others get on with turning out product. When feeding your family depended on product, you understood about how sharp an edge *needed* to be. Certainly, I have some bits of kit that will get me a stupid sharp edge, and I have enough (definitely not an excess) planes and edge tools that i can reserve some to be tuned to near death and reserved for the gnarliest grain. But most of the time, I work with edges that are not totally sharp, reach for a stone, grab out he blade, give it a few swipes, wipe off with a shaving, and back to work. Now and again I may declare a grinding day, and pull out the usual suspects, re-grind the bevels back, and continue, The thing about the galoot mentality is that you need very very few tools, and bucketloads of skill. Everything we have is just 'sharp on a stick’ - but it’s knowing how to hold and manipulate that sharp which gets results, and allows recovery from awkward material or even (shudder) a mistake. And most important, it’s the sum of being able to understand the material and the sharp that gives such enormous pleasure and satisfaction at the completion fo anything - be it ever so humble. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in Spring, where it’s April, and snowing. > On 6 Apr 2021, at 11:22, Mick Dowling |
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273361 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
This should go in the archives as a statement of the Galoot Ethos Well said Ed Minch |
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273362 | Kevin Foley <kevin.m.foley@c...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Sharpening seems to be a black hole that few discussions of any length about planes can avoid. The event horizon is where the focus shifts to shavings and is no longer on the wood. Beyond that I fear there are microscopes. Kevin |
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273363 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Action starts at 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9X-XzFGHI Ed Minch |
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273364 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
On 2021-04-06 2:50 a.m., Richard Wilson wrote: > I strugle with the idea of a hinged lid, as you so often need the stone to be raised and your knuckles to be lower than the surface on either side. I have seen at least one old box with hinges on one end. That may not be practical for such a large stone if you plan to use it, but it's an option. FWIW Don |
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273365 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
I would agree that a hinged end lid would probably work better than a side hinged. And don't forget the clearance issues to allow the lid to clear the stone sitting up to be usable. I've bought several stones with boxes, and almost all the vintage ones appear to have been augered first. One was nicely finished, and I can't tell what was done first. My one modern box is a nail together. Kirk in HMB, who degreased a few tools this morning before my shower |
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273366 | Rick B <rickburger68@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
You might want to glue a piece of stropping leather to the top. I have a couple of boxes for oil stones, neither is hinged. Rick B from the Midwest |
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273367 | gtgrouch@r... | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
All my oilstone boxes have a removable top which nestles over the stone. In most, the stone is loose enough to remove but stable enough to leave in the bottom to sharpen with. I have two which are highly prized: one is a boxed coarse/medium stone with a box made by my father, and the other is a loose stone, picked up in Charnley Forest (I don't know if I spelled that right) by our own Jeff Gorman, who kept it on his desk for years to sharpen pen knives. Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA -----------------------------------------From: "Rick B" To: oldtools@g... Cc: Sent: Tuesday April 6 2021 2:35:30PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Box or Case for Large Oilstone You might want to glue a piece of stropping leather to the top. I have a couple of boxes for oil stones, neither is hinged. Rick B from the Midwest Links: ------ [1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub |
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273368 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Here's my take on the subject. I like clearance for mine so I can flatten the backs and not have knuckle dragging trouble. The bevel counts but its really all about the back. I like to clamp it securely in a vise so I can put some pressure on and not have to chase it around. So I make my boxes with a thick bottom. A 2X4 is enough. The sides come up only about 1/4" . Just enough to trap the stone. Lid is optional, but it keeps the dirt off. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox4.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox7.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox8.jpg Oh and dished stones? I just pick a spot of relative flat cement and plop on down with a glass of water. Last time it was my back porch step. There was a small area of slight roughness. (the cement finisher was not that bad, but still left a bit to be desired lol) In about 10 minutes I got a flat stone and slightly smoother cement. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/auction/step.jpg yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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273369 | Ken Wright | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 12:16 -0700, scottg wrote: > > The bevel counts but its really all about the back. > All about that back, 'bout that back, 'bout that back, no bevels! (g,d,r) Ken |
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273370 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
GG's, "Hogging" a whetstone case out of a chunk of Oak did occur to me. However, I have not one but two _other_ old monolithic stone boxes with an end grain piece split out and MIA. I surmise the absorption of oil greatly reduces the resistance to splitting along the grain. You've helped me to discard the piano hinge concept. It will either be a lift- off lid or have a hinge on one end. Alternately, perhaps a pair of those "pintle and gudgeon" hinges to allow the lid to be easily detached. Will definitely get the beading plane into the act! Ed- The circles with the small center dots look like they were made with a Forstner bit. Somewhere, I have a set of NOS Forstner bits with bitstock heads to fit a carpenter's brace. They were made in Connecticut. When was the Forstner bit developed? That might give you a data point for the earliest possible date for that box. The stone, of course, was made in the year "1" by Almighty God & Co. John Ruth Ducking and Running! P.S. Let's just say that the art of the drive-by gloat is still very much alive in Albion, NY. |
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273371 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Oh, RATS! I've done it again. Ed, please ignore my erroneous statement that the circles with the small center dimple look like Forstner marks!!! Obviously, they were made by a Center Bit circa 1817. John Ruth On Apr 6, 2021, at 6:05 AM, Ed Minch |
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273373 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:25 PM, John Ruth |
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273372 | Tony Seo | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Here are a few of the cased stones that I have sold over the years., just for ideas This one was a recent find. http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201a.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201b.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201c.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201d.jpg This is a neat razor hone with a hinged lid. http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302a.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302b.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302c.jpg This one had brass hinges and a latch along with a leather hone glued on top http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0501.jpg Another razor hone with single piece top and base. http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0901.jpg There have been more but I hope that this gives some ideas. Tony (where the weather has been nice and hoping for a good flea run tomorrow..) -- Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic Old River Hard Goods http://oldetoolshop.com/ |
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273374 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:41 PM Tony Seo via groups.io |
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273376 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Ed wrote: "The circles with the small center dots look like they were made with a Forstner bit." I don't think so. Those, in my opinion, came from a center-bit. I've seen a number of oldsters like these, and center-bits were the go to of the day. The oldest I've seen is not a stone box, but a photo of the excavation for a patch box in the surviving 1803 rifle from the Lewis and Clark expedition. When I was actively researching tools and practices of carpentry for Sutter's Fort back in the '80s (had to document every tool I brought there to no later than 1845) I looked at a number of boxed stones for that period. Most were not hinged, and the bottom and tops were both excavated so they could be used just like Sott recommends. Many were strictly utilitarian, but a number were fancier; their tops appeared to have been made out of sections of wide stair rail. Provides an easy handle for lifting the top. Those that were hinged were hinged like Scott's lovely examples. Mike in Woodland |
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273377 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Lovely examples, Tony! Mike in Woodland |
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273378 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2021‑04‑06 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
I once dealt with a fine carpenter from Scotland -- '86 or '87. One of the things he told me was that to pass his apprenticeship he was required to sharpen and tune a wooden smoothing plane to the point where he could lift a single shaving from a 20 foot long board that was so thin you could see through it. On the other hand, from April of 1985 to April of '86, I worked with about 30 carpenters, cabinet makers, and shipwrights from Viet-Nam. Some of them were near magical. Carpenters and cabinet makers preferred iron-bark wood for their planes (all of them made their own). The shipwrights used oak exclusively; it didn't last as long, but wasn't resinous. The intensity of their way of working would bring the resins out of the iron-bark. When too worn, the shipwrights threw them out and made new ones. All three preferred water stones, and since they sharpened every tool they had used that day, some before leaving, some first thing the next morning, the stones quickly dished. When too dished, they turned the stones over and worked them until they broke in half. This is how working carpenters did the deed. No attention to transparent shavings or making microscopic edges. I'm pretty sure that Duncan Phyfe worked much the same way. Not here to make shavings, here to make things to make their living. Mike in Woodland |
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273381 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑04‑07 | Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone |
Gentle Galoots, I made an excavated box for a translucent Arkansas stone. Nothing fancy, no hinges. I used a center bit (centre bit, Jeff) for the initial excavation and a router plane for leveling the bottom to final depth. This is a perfect application for a router plane. Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle |
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