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271362 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑03 Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Hi Gallots!

Just found this auger-ish bit:
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-03_21-19-19-1.jpg<
/a>
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-03_21-19-04-1.jpg<
/a>
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-03_21-18-59-1.jpg<
/a>
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-03_21-18-53-1.jpg<
/a>
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-03_21-18-49-1.jpg<
/a>

It looks hand forged to me, it has a notch on the tang, and is a
simple twisted flat bar, with a tapered profile.
The cutting edge looks weird tho, sort of halfway b/w a gimlet and an auger bit.
Haven't tried it, but i would say that it doesn't cut, as it is right now.

It is a left turn bit!

I remember reading an online pdf about brace and auger bit history, it
had a map of Europe showing the origin of different tang shapes. But i
can't find it anymore, spent an hour googling, and finally gave up.
And AFAIR, there was a section about left turning bits, saying these
are old bits from continental Europe.

Anyone would have more information?

Could this be a bit from early or mid 1800's?

Please, no "farmerize" joke! ;-)

Cheers,
Chris
271366 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑03 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Chris, GGs

If right twist bits remove material then maybe left handed bits are for
replacing it. Possibly a Lie-Nielsen ancestors attempt at an April 1st joke.

A properly serious thought. Left twist bits, why? Or, alternatively right twist
bits, why? Is there a mechanical advantage to right or left twist bits,
depending on whether you are right or left handed?

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia
271367 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑03 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 10:24, Mick Dowling  wrote:
>
> Chris, GGs
>
> If right twist bits remove material then maybe left handed bits are for
replacing it.

I can confirm, I just tried it on an existing hole, and now it's gone! :)
Works only if the hole diameter matches the bit.

Chris
271368 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑03 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Where can I buy one! 

Mick Dowling
271369 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑03 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 at 11:05, Mick Dowling  wrote:
>
> Where can I buy one!

https://www.magictricks.com/
271374 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
is the metric system left-handed?  It's so sinister and gauche.

Ed Minch
271375 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
No Ed, it’s equally left and right handed, adding up to 10.

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia
271376 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Sun, 5 Jul 2020, Cheeky Ed Minch said:
> is the metric system left-handed?  It's so sinister and gauche.

:)

I think back in that day, they were not metric. France had its own
inch (https://en.wikipedia.or
g/wiki/Paris_inch), which of course was
not the same as its English counterpart
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_Franc
e_before_the_French_Revolution)

I don't know about other European countries, but i wouldn't be
surprised if everyone had their own measurement systems.

Regarding left/right, I was surprised like yourself. I'm actually not
sure if it was specific to continental Europe and i still can't find
this PDF i'm looking for.

Given i'm in New Zealand right now, it's more likely this bit came
from the UK or US, but if it's really that old, then more likely the
UK.

Let me take my vernier caliper ... (/me going to the shed with a torch
lamp, as there's no electricity there)
Tada! This bit is 0.5225 imperial inch at its widest, so looks like an
1/2". Or 13.27mm, which doesn't look close to a plausible common
metric size.

Chris
271377 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 00:41, Christian Gagneraud  wrote:
> Given i'm in New Zealand right now, it's more likely this bit came
> from the UK or US, but if it's really that old, then more likely the
> UK.

It could have been forged locally too. That would mean ca 1850's at
the earliest.

Chris
271378 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
the Vasa - largest warship there was in 1628 - rolled over and sank as it left
the dock for the first time.  It was raised in 1961 and held untold treasures.
They laser tracked its entire hull and found that one side of the hull has about
10% more wood in it than the other.  They also found 3 carpenter’s rules that
had fallen into the bilge during construction.  Among the 3 there were 2
different inches.  They havent drawn any conclusions.

Ed Minch
271380 Timothy J Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On July 4, 2020, at 8:01 AM, Ed Minch  wrote:

>
>is the metric system left-handed?  It's so sinister and gauche.
>Ed Minch

That is an interesting concept Ed; but, I'm gradually turning towards the
Coriolis Effect as the cause, especially in view of where the tool was found.

Tim
It's all about the numbers today - using a 1930s Atlas 10D lathe to turn a 1950s
bent backhoe pin into an attachment foot for 1920s Greist accessories going onto
a 1905 Singer 31-15 sewing machine.
271383 Dave Tardiff 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
It occurs to me that if the blacksmith making the bit does the habitual
clockwise twist when forming the bit....it'll turn out to be a left handed
auger?
And I can't see how direction matters if being used in a wooden brace with a
catch for that notch....
So perhaps just a lack of planning ahead by the smith?


-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Dowling 
To: Christian Gagneraud 
Cc: old tools 
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2020 6:23 pm
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hand forged auger bit, how old?

Chris, GGs

If right twist bits remove material then maybe left handed bits are for
replacing it. Possibly a Lie-Nielsen ancestors attempt at an April 1st joke.

A properly serious thought. Left twist bits, why? Or, alternatively right twist
bits, why? Is there a mechanical advantage to right or left twist bits,
depending on whether you are right or left handed?

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia

> On 3 Jul 2020, at 8:41 pm, Christian Gagneraud  wrote:
> 
> It is a left turn bit!
> 
> I remember reading an online pdf about brace and auger bit history, it
> had a map of Europe showing the origin of different tang shapes. But i
> can't find it anymore, spent an hour googling, and finally gave up.
> And AFAIR, there was a section about left turning bits, saying these
> are old bits from continental Europe.
> 
> Anyone would have more information?
> 
> Could this be a bit from early or mid 1800's?
> 
> Please, no "farmerize" joke! ;-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

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OldTools@s...
271386 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On 2020-07-04 1:34 p.m., Dave Tardiff via OldTools wrote:
> It occurs to me that if the blacksmith making the bit does the habitual
clockwise twist when forming the bit....it'll turn out to be a left handed
auger?
> And I can't see how direction matters if being used in a wooden brace with a
catch for that notch....
> So perhaps just a lack of planning ahead by the smith?

Left-hand twist bits are readily available for screw extraction and 
perhaps other uses. A lot of trades employ tools which are more-or-less 
unique to a particular task in their skill-set.

I wonder if this old forged bit had a special purpose we're just not 
contemplating? Think outside of the box.

FWIW

Don


-- 
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” —
Albert Einstein

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271389 Thomas Conroy 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Christian Gagneraud  wrote:
> 
> It is a left turn bit!
> 
> I remember reading an online pdf about brace and auger bit history, it
> had a map of Europe showing the origin of different tang shapes. But i
> can't find it anymore, spent an hour googling, and finally gave up.
> And AFAIR, there was a section about left turning bits, saying these
> are old bits from continental Europe.
> 
> Anyone would have more information?
>--------------------------------

Chris:

Could the twist be the remains of a left-hand screw thread, used for screwing on
another piece? The idea in my mind is that it might be the handle segment of a
wooden pipe auger, maybe ten feet long overall but made in segments so that it
could be broken down for easy carrying from farm to farm. Either George Sturt or
Walter Rose has a chapter on making wooden well pumps, which involved long pipe
augurs. If the segments connected with left-hand screws but the cutting end was
right-hand it would tighten in use; if everything was right-hand, it wouldd come
apart in use, potentially leaving the cutting end stuck in the log.
Tom ConroyBerkeley
271390 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Could it have been a regional thing?  Spoon bits are omni directional (well not
spinning top to bottom) so maybe it didn’t matter for a time or place for a
while

Ed Minch
271391 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
> 
> Chris:
> 
> Could the twist be the remains of a left-hand screw thread, used for screwing
on another piece? The idea in my mind is that it might be the handle segment of
a wooden pipe auger, maybe ten feet long overall but made in segments so that it
could be broken down for easy carrying from farm to farm. Either George Sturt or
Walter Rose has a chapter on making wooden well pumps, which involved long pipe
augurs. If the segments connected with left-hand screws but the cutting end was
right-hand it would tighten in use; if everything was right-hand, it wouldd come
apart in use, potentially leaving the cutting end stuck in the log.
> Tom ConroyBerkeley


I’ve showed this before but it is so cool that I will again

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49336214953/in/album-72157712535
614923/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49336214953/in/albu
m-72157712535614923/>

Ship fitter and pump maker, late 17th c, Rotterdam.  Ships used pumps too
because at the time they leaked pretty horribly.  And using trunnels to fasten
planks, one of them sprung pretty often.  The pump augers appear to be all one
piece, but in Wilmington DE where I lived for 3 decades, they would still dig up
a piece of wooden pipe underground, sometimes 20 feet long.

Ed Minch
271392 "Stager, Scott P." <StagerS@m...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Jul 3, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Mick Dowling mailto:spacelysprocket@b...>> wrote:

A properly serious thought. Left twist bits, why? Or, alternatively right twist
bits, why? Is there a mechanical advantage to right or left twist bits,
depending on whether you are right or left handed?

  Auger bits, probably not.

Wood screws (using manual screwdriver) definitely.

—Scott
---------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia MO
573-474-5955 home
573-424-4764 cell
stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>
271393 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
This is great, Ed!  Thanks a load!
271394 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Right hand twist is "Sunwise" and Sunwise is fortunate.  And the vast
majority of us are right handed.  Left hand twist in a brace would be
more ergonomic for a left handed person.  I guess you could call this
piece a "bit sinister."
271395 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
"A box a left-handed wood screws please”. 

As a young apprentice, I did get sent to the workshop store for a long weight.

I kinda knew I was being stooged, but I sat down anyway and was sent back to the
workshop empty handed after…………maybe 10 minutes.

Mick Dowling
271397 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 10:40, Ed Minch  wrote:
> Could the twist be the remains of a left-hand screw thread, used for screwing
on another piece?
>> I’ve showed this before but it is so cool that I will again
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49336214953/in/album-72157712
535614923/
>>
>> Ship fitter and pump maker, late 17th c, Rotterdam.  Ships used pumps too
because at the time they leaked pretty horribly.  And using trunnels to fasten
planks, one of them sprung pretty often.  The pump augers appear to be all one
piece, but in Wilmington DE where I lived for 3 decades, they would still dig up
a piece of wooden pipe underground, sometimes 20 feet long.

That's really interesting.
I got this auger bit with another tapered spoon drill/reamer, same
characteristics: tang with notch, and it seems to be a left bit
too.The tip is damaged, but the end of the right edge is definitely
turning left when looking from the tang.
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-05_13-05-03.jpg
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-05_13-05-34.jpg
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-05_13-05-43.jpg
https://chgansdesign.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/2020-07-05_13-05-58.jpg

Is has no marking.

According to https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulleti
ns/Fomrhi-136/Comm%202060.pdf,
these were used by woodwind instrument makers.

Well, 2 more bits to go in my "weird looking bits" box.

Chris
271399 Peter Marquis-Kyle <peter@m...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
On 5/07/2020 9:54 am, Mick Dowling wrote:
> "A box a left-handed wood screws please”.

You'll find those next to the cans of striped paint.
271400 Thomas Conroy 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Scott Stager wrote:
"Tom - think that through again - I think I disagree with you.
"Right hand twist to drill would tighten right hand threads on rod segments.   

"Right?"

Absolutely right. I was thinking from a false analogy, and I was dead wrong.
Stupidly wrong. Grossly, grotesquely wrong. Pass over that cuspidor, it needs a
good buff-up.


Tom
271410 Chuck Taylor 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Gentle Galoots,

Mick wrote:

> "A box a left-handed wood screws please”. 

When I served in U.S. Navy ships, it was "relative bearing grease" that
newcomers were sent to fetch.

Getting back to old tools and left-hand screws in particular, I "sorta collect"
(TM Todd Hughes) edge tools from Charles Taylor's Sheffield Tools Ltd. Said
tools are often stamped with the trade name, "Screw Brand" and the image of a
wood screw.  A left-hand wood screw.

Cheers,
Chuck (a.k.a. "Charles") Taylor
north of Seattle USA
271411 gtgrouch@r... 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
We used to sent newbies off to get a board stretcher. When someone new
asked you for one, the reply was that you just lent yours to
so-and-so, who just happened to be as far away as you could indicate.

Good times! Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Chuck Taylor via
OldTools" 

To: "Mick Dowling"
Cc: "Listserv Oldtools"
Sent: Sunday July 5 2020 1:13:55PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hand forged auger bit, how old?

Gentle Galoots,

 Mick wrote:

 > "A box a left-handed wood screws please”. 

 When I served in U.S. Navy ships, it was "relative bearing grease"
that newcomers were sent to fetch.

 Getting back to old tools and left-hand screws in particular, I
"sorta collect" (TM Todd Hughes) edge tools from Charles Taylor's
Sheffield Tools Ltd. Said tools are often stamped with the trade name,
"Screw Brand" and the image of a wood screw. A left-hand wood screw.

 Cheers,
 Chuck (a.k.a. "Charles") Taylor
 north of Seattle USA

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
 aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage,
 value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
 traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

 To change your subscription options:

 OldTools archive:
271414 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Followed by:  Won't work because the board will be too thin.  someone go
get the board fluffer.  Actually happened in a college set building
class. 

Mike in Woodland
271415 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
"A box of abrasive blue electro sparks for saw sharpening please”

Mick Dowling
Once was apprenticed.
271416 Mike Lynd 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
As an 18 year old in a summer job, I was sent to the stores to ask for sky
hooks for a ladder. Still makes me wince!

On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 22:43, Mick Dowling 
wrote:
271417 "kevin.m.foley" <kevin.m.foley@c...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
While a rookie in the FD I was sent in search for a can of friction loss for the
pump. I knew it existed because I heard the pump operators talking about it all
the time.

Kevin Foley
Smarter now.  Or not.
271418 gtgrouch@r... 2020‑07‑05 Re: Hand forged auger bit, how old?
Wow - I never even heard of a board fluffer. It sounds useful.

I'll go out and buy one! Just proves I'm not too old to learn.

Tongue firmly in cheek, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Michael Blair" 

To: gtgrouch@r...
Cc: "Chuck Taylor", "Listserv Oldtools"
Sent: Sunday July 5 2020 3:47:31PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hand forged auger bit, how old?

	Followed by: Won't work because the board will be too thin. someone
go get the board fluffer. Actually happened in a college set building
class. 

	Mike in Woodland   

	On 2020-07-05 11:32, gtgrouch@r... wrote:  We used to
sent newbies off to get a board stretcher. When someone new
 asked you for one, the reply was that you just lent yours to
 so-and-so, who just happened to be as far away as you could indicate.

 Good times! Gary Katsanis
 Albion New York, USA

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