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268670 Bill Webber 2019‑06‑13 Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Hi guys, I'm being a bit lazy here.  I don't want to spend a month 
wandering around the internet buzz to analyze a bunch of opinions by 
people who probably have never done the work.

So, here's what I'm looking for.  I bought Larry Williams' tape on 
making hollows and rounds and he talks about heat treating irons using a 
torch on a propane tank along with a couple fire bricks to contain the 
heat.  Then he talks a little about how to identify the proper 
temperature.  So, I'd like some pointers from folks who have actually 
done this; I know you are out there.

I'm looking at a propane torch like this from HD:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Inferno-
Propane-Torch-Kit-KH825-01/100341111
      500K BTU ought to do it, right?

To determine the right temperature, I've heard of going by color, I've 
heard of using a magnet (like I'm gonna stick a magnet to a chunk of 
metal at a 1000 degrees) Larry Williams talks about 'watching the metal 
sweat'.  So, can someone point me to something that works?

Quenching, I hear abut vegetable oil, peanut oil (smells better, they 
say) and I guess old motor oil would be ver botem, too flammable, right?

So, any one doing this at home?  Any videos out there on how I want to 
approach this?  Any help much appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill W.
in Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/
268672 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
On 2019-06-12 7:25 p.m., Bill Webber via OldTools wrote:
> Hi guys, I'm being a bit lazy here.  I don't want to spend a month 
> wandering around the internet buzz to analyze a bunch of opinions by 
> people who probably have never done the work.
>
> So, here's what I'm looking for.  I bought Larry Williams' tape on 
> making hollows and rounds and he talks about heat treating irons using 
> a torch on a propane tank along with a couple fire bricks to contain 
> the heat.  Then he talks a little about how to identify the proper 
> temperature.  So, I'd like some pointers from folks who have actually 
> done this; I know you are out there.
>
> I'm looking at a propane torch like this from HD:
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Inferno-
Propane-Torch-Kit-KH825-01/100341111
>      500K BTU ought to do it, right?
>
> To determine the right temperature, I've heard of going by color, I've 
> heard of using a magnet (like I'm gonna stick a magnet to a chunk of 
> metal at a 1000 degrees) Larry Williams talks about 'watching the 
> metal sweat'.  So, can someone point me to something that works?
>
> Quenching, I hear abut vegetable oil, peanut oil (smells better, they 
> say) and I guess old motor oil would be ver botem, too flammable, right?
>
> So, any one doing this at home?  Any videos out there on how I want to 
> approach this?  Any help much appreciated.

Only done it once - Coleman stove + a very basic propane torch on a 
drill bit made for the lathe. Used canola oil for the quench. No drama, 
despite anxieties expressed by LOML and my daughter. Heat colours are 
really only visible in a dim light. Magnetic pick-up tool came in handy 
for the test.


FWIW

Don

-- 
“It is better to be killed by a woman with a knife than by a man with a gun.”
Che Guevara

A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe

Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
Thomas Paine

Being offended doesn't make you right.
268673 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Hey Bill
   I have done this --lots-- of times
That is a weed torch you showed. Certainly adequate but serious overkill.
2 ordinary household torches are totally sufficient unless you are doing 
something very large.
Any old oil you have an excess of will do fine. How about some of that 
22 gallon vat you bought at Costco? lol  Just keep a handy cover to 
smother the flames. A shingle or whatever is nearby.

      Here you go
     http://
www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/driverheat.htm

  For a cutting tool, to temper it, you might want to just bake it in 
the oven alongside a pie.
350,  45 minutes, its perfect.
      yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
268674 "Stager, Scott P." <StagerS@m...> 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Going by color takes dim light in deep shade (preferably in dim shop) - and a
bit of experience doesn’t hurt - probably help to have someone walk you through
it the first time.

Peanut oil will work just fine.

Pickup magnet on telescoping wand - few bucks at big box store if you don’t have
one already.  Non magnetic is really a pretty reliable way to determine if it is
hot enough.  Don’t want to overheat it and ruin the steal.

Leave a little residual heat up from the end to temper the hardness back, or if
too small a blade for that try putting in an oven for awhile - 400 F. should be
about right.  .

O-1 is pretty forgiving compared to the more exotics.

Have fun

—Scott

On Jun 12, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Bill Webber via OldTools mailto:oldtools@s...>> wrote:

Hi guys, I'm being a bit lazy here.  I don't want to spend a month wandering
around the internet buzz to analyze a bunch of opinions by people who probably
have never done the work.

So, here's what I'm looking for.  I bought Larry Williams' tape on making
hollows and rounds and he talks about heat treating irons using a torch on a
propane tank along with a couple fire bricks to contain the heat. Then he talks
a little about how to identify the proper temperature.  So, I'd like some
pointers from folks who have actually done this; I know you are out there.

I'm looking at a propane torch like this from HD:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Inferno-
Propane-Torch-Kit-KH825-01/100341111      500K BTU ought to do it, right?

To determine the right temperature, I've heard of going by color, I've heard of
using a magnet (like I'm gonna stick a magnet to a chunk of metal at a 1000
degrees) Larry Williams talks about 'watching the metal sweat'.  So, can someone
point me to something that works?

Quenching, I hear abut vegetable oil, peanut oil (smells better, they say) and I
guess old motor oil would be ver botem, too flammable, right?

So, any one doing this at home?  Any videos out there on how I want to approach
this?  Any help much appreciated.


---------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia MO
573-474-5955 home
573-424-4764 cell
stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>
268675 Bill Webber 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Thanks guys, Mike, Scott, Don, Kermit, Scott, John, et al,

1. Most folks thought the big torch was OK but over kill.  I have a 
couple old propane torches from back in the copper pipe days but I never 
liked them.  Larry Williams liked the big torch.  I haven't purchased 
one yet but they are not expensive and look like they would be easy to 
adapt to a made-up holding fixture.  More horse power, right?

2. Several people said use a magnet.  I wasn't thinking about one of 
those handled pick-up tools.  I'll get one.

3. I have plenty of used motor oil, so I guess I'll give that a try. 
The new pot was pretty expensive, but LOML likes it!

4. At least one knowledgeable galoot suggested torch tempering.  I 
think I'll go with oven tempering at 350 - 400 degrees for 45 minutes to 
an hour.

Sounds like one of these deals where you just need to get in and do it. 
Did I miss anything?

I started down the path of trying to make a set of H&Rs.  Lots of new 
territory for me.  I tried cutting the mortise as Mr. Williams 
recommended but that was a disaster.  So now I'm trying to make a set of 
special purpose mortise chisels.  Nine chisels in all, one for each of 
the size wedges Mr. Williams suggests.  I'm working on the first five, 
made from 1/2" round stock.  The remaining 4 chisels will be made from 
3/4" stock.  These are pretty heavy. The biggest will be for a 1/2" 
wedge.  Another reason for the bigger torch?  Here are a couple pics of 
the so-far effort.  There's not a lot of difference in the smallest 
sizes; just for completeness:
http://billwebber.gal
ootcentral.com/1906-023.JPG
http://billwebber.gal
ootcentral.com/1906-024.JPG

The start of the story is here:
http://b
illwebber.galootcentral.com/projects_in_progress.html

Thanks for all your input.

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/
268676 Kirk Eppler 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 1:33 PM Bill Webber via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

>
>
> 1. Most folks thought the big torch was OK but over kill.  I have a
> couple old propane torches from back in the copper pipe days but I never
> liked them.  Larry Williams liked the big torch.  I haven't purchased
> one yet but they are not expensive and look like they would be easy to
> adapt to a made-up holding fixture.  More horse power, right?
>
>
>
All

I'm not an expert, but when I wanted to play with fire, people talked me
out of using my Dragon's Breath torch (as Bill noted), and instead
recommended a MAPPro torch instead.  What I found is that the MAPPro flame
is small and narrow, like a propane torch, but hotter.  You can get closer
to the flame, and need less fire bricks that way.

The Dragon's Breath, while bigger in terms of BTUs, isn't as well
controlled, and I'd probably need a much safer place to work than on top of
a Workmate with 4 fire bricks.

¢¢

-- 
Kirk Eppler, in HMB, CA who buys all the MAPP gas cylinders I see at garage
sales.
268677 "Ed O'" <edo@e...> 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
If you are set on the big torch Harbor Freight sells a similar one for about
$11 cheaper ($29.99).  Appears to not be as long a hose and the tool does
not look as long.  They are constantly sending me 20-25% off coupons as well
which would make it even cheaper.  I have one and use it for weeds and
melting ice on brick and can attest to the fact that when you squeeze the
trigger it sounds like a jet engine.

See here:

https://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-9103
7.h
tml

or this one at $19.99 (says it goes to over 3000 degrees)

https://www.har
borfreight.com/propane-torch-91033.html

Assuming you have a Harbor Freight in the area.

Earlier in the week I kicked off some conversation on Shelton planes and now
Harbor Freight.  I am really dragging down the quality of the list....

Ed O'

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of Bill
Webber via OldTools
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Need some help with heat treating O1 steel

Thanks guys, Mike, Scott, Don, Kermit, Scott, John, et al,

1. Most folks thought the big torch was OK but over kill.  I have a couple
old propane torches from back in the copper pipe days but I never liked
them.  Larry Williams liked the big torch.  I haven't purchased one yet but
they are not expensive and look like they would be easy to adapt to a
made-up holding fixture.  More horse power, right?
268678 Erik Levin 2019‑06‑13 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Bill said:

> I haven't purchased one yet but they are not expensive and look like they
would be easy to
> adapt to a made-up holding fixture.  More horse power, right?


Yes and no. If you have a space outdoors, and can shroud a space with firebrick
or refractory, or, for that matter, a clean steel drum, sure. They don't
throttle down very well, and suck fuel fast. For a small item, it can be
difficult to keep from overheating.

My favourite for things too big for my good heat treat furnace (it is an
upgraded dental furnace with a box about 60X60X50mm.... If I  had the money, I
would go 200X200X200mm with a good controller, but I don't have the space for
larger, though larger is cheaper as a second hand ceramics kiln) get done on the
grill. A fire pit will do as well. Charcoal gives a nice reducing atmosphere and
will achieve temperature for hardening steel in a fairly uniform and controlled
manner.

When charcoal isn't practical, the midsize plumbers torch or acetylene-air
turbotorch get used, but they take a lot more care.


> I have plenty of used motor oil, so I guess I'll give that a try. The new pot
was pretty expensive, but LOML likes it!

It'll be fine. As said by others, use a container that you can cover to smother
flame. I use an old steamer pot. The basket makes it easy to get parts out, and
the lid goes on immediately after the part goes in.


> At least one knowledgeable galoot suggested torch tempering. I think I'll go
with oven tempering at 350 - 400 degrees for 45 minutes to an hour.


For point tools, I use the traditional "quench the tip, and quench again when
heat runs back to the tip and the color at the tip is right" when I can, and I
go with the toaster oven or big oven in the kitchen for larger. I watch the
color if I can, and usually drop a thermocouple in (make sure it's near the
part. Just close the door on the lead gently) to monitor temperature. Slow
increase makes for uniform tempering temp. For the inexperienced, I would
suggest the slow job in the oven. Just be sure to preheat to reduce overshoot,
and check the thermostat, as consumer ovens are notoriously inaccurate. Start a
bit low, look at the color, and raise the temp if needed. The traditional method
has the advantage that the material behind the tip is just shy of annealed with
little risk of cracking or chipping.


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
268679 Bill Webber 2019‑06‑14 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Hi Kirk,

Thanks for your comments.  So far I'm still pursuing the weed burner 
path.  Over the years I've learned that Mapp is hotter than propane, and 
a small propane torch is generally inadequate for heat treating. (yes 
you can build a purpose specific oven.) I think everyone wold agree on 
this point? Anyway I'm going with the high volume propane torch for the 
following reasons, in no particular order.

1. It's less expensive.  Inexpensive wand with a hose to connect to my 
several barbecue tanks.

2. While MAPP is hotter, it is more point specific.  Larry Williams 
makes the point that you want the heat to flow to the tip, with heat 
flowing evenly through the whole iron as  opposed to heating just the 
tip.  If you focus on just heating the tip you risk quickly over heating it.

3. I think MAPP would require much more attention, where the propane 
weed killer can be left to cook with less panic involved.  I'm looking 
for guaranteed success in all cases.

4. I'm not concerned about the environment.  I'll stack a few fire 
bricks on a concrete block out doors in my fire pit.

5. I've sent out a lot of blades to be heat treated.  The last ones I 
sent out were ruined by a well known maker because he did not vet a new 
vendor.  I want to avoid ever doing that again.

6. Couple weeks to go before I'm ready, but wish me luck...

Regards,

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/
268682 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2019‑06‑14 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
one of the things you can try is to heat (whatever method) a block of steel
to red hot, and get some low heat (say 200degF) into the polished iron.
lay the iron on the block so the sharp part of the iron you want tempered
is off the edge of the block by a couple inches.  the tempering heat will
flow into and down the iron (hotter towards the block), and when it gets to
the color you want at the edge, quench.

bill
felton, ca

On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:19 PM Bill Webber via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:
268683 Roy Parker <rp77469@c...> 2019‑06‑14 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Lots of good advice already posted.  Here are some observations from
my experience, but there are a lot of ways to get to the endpoint you
want that also work just fine.

I used to make a lot of flint strikers out of old horse drawn hay rake
tines, worn out files, etc. which I believe is the equivalent of O1.
The most important part is to get to the non-magnetic temperature and
let it soak at that temperature for 2-3 minutes to give time for the
phase shift to complete.

I have quenched in several kinds of oil.  Used motor oil works, but
leaves a dark surface that can be tough to polish off.  I have used
whatever cooking oil was unguarded in the kitchen in a pinch.  I had a
portable setup so did this outside and did not have to worry much
about fire, but do have something to smother a fire as others have
noted.

I used to temper strikers spread out on a pizza pan in the kitchen
oven.  Use a good oven thermometer.  Preheat oven to 375 (preheat so
it does not get too hot) and put them in the oven.  After an hour,
turn off the oven and go to bed and they were good to go the next
morning.  QC was to drop one on the wood floor.  If it did not break,
it passed.  This turned out to be a lot easier than doing them by eye
over the forge, and more consistent.  Plus I could do a dozen or more
at a time.

Propane torch will do the job for smaller items.  I made some
inletting chisels once out of concrete nails and propane did the job.
I dropped one hardened chisel on a wooden floor and it broke.  Those
that were tempered worked fine.  Maybe not the best in the world, but
what do you want for something that cost 5 cents.  

Good luck and have fun.  I will have my forge back in service by early
August after far, far too long.  Really looking forward to get back to
it.
268687 Bill Webber 2019‑06‑15 Re: Need some help with heat treating O1 steel
Thanks, Roy, I only needed a small push to get me away from motor oil to 
something a little more friendly.

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/

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