OldTools Archive
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255210 | Gary Katsanis <gtgrouch@r...> | 2015‑06‑27 | Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Please respond off-list as this is only loosely related to old tools. I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. Penalty for failure is severe and messy. Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust? I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a serious issue. Thanks for any advice, Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA |
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255211 | Scott Murman <smurman@s...> | 2015‑06‑27 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
why is this off topic? > On Jun 27, 2015, at 7:50 AM, Gary Katsanis |
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255212 | Michael Dawson <misterschmoo@g...> | 2015‑06‑27 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
On 28/06/2015 2:50 a.m., Gary Katsanis wrote: > I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the > 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. > Penalty for failure is severe and messy. > > Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust? > I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a > serious issue. I don't know about what electrolysis might do the the metal, but I remove rust with a mixture of 9 parts water to 1 part molasses, soak the part in this mixture taking it out every few days to scrub off the dead rust sludge and the re-submerging, it removes only rust and there is no way it will be effecting the metal. Once all the rust is gone which can take from a couple of days to a few weeks depending on the depth of the rust, you give the metal a buff with a wire wheel and a coat of 3-in1 oil to protect the new surface, unless you're going to paint it in which case just leave the matt surface alone and just paint it. I have done this many times and I find the process perfect. It has the advantage of only eating the rust and not attacking the metal which the other processes tend to do. And if you buy stock feed molasses it will be even cheaper. Michael NZ |
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255215 | Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2015‑06‑28 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Gary Katsanis |
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255216 | Adrian Jones <adrianjones747@c...> | 2015‑06‑28 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
I don't trust citric acid anymore. 3 out of the set of Stanley 45 blades came out cracked. Cheers |
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255222 | "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> | 2015‑06‑28 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
I used to think that molasses works on rust because it is rich in vitamin C : Ascorbic acid But it's actually way more complicated than that There are several chelating agents in molasses that bind specifically to metals There's copper oxide which interacts with rust as a reducing agent Glucose acts as a reducing agent too |
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255224 | "Peter Evans" <peterrevans@o...> | 2015‑06‑28 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Doesn't citric acid fix cracks? Cheers Peter Peter Evans Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools- bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Adrian Jones Sent: Monday, 29 June 2015 12:14 AM To: oldtools@s... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I don't trust citric acid anymore. 3 out of the set of Stanley 45 blades came out cracked. Cheers |
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255225 | mikerock <mikerock@m...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Sure does! Guaranteed not to rip, tear, pull hair, show wear, and makes childbirth practically a pleasure! ;) On 6/28/2015 6:16 PM, Peter Evans wrote: > Doesn't citric acid fix cracks? > > Cheers > Peter > |
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255227 | curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Maximal Shop Envy. |
That's entirely on topic, IMO. Everyone knows that silver sputtering is a great lubricant and is a prerequisite to success when scary sharpening. And his vacuum pumps were all treadle-powered. cur On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Nichael Cramer |
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255233 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
I still use electrolysis for sensitive things (plane body, saw blade) but have started using a 50-50 mix of white vinegar and water with great results. Faster, cleaner, safer. And I swear the "black stuff" comes off easier after electrolysis if I put some of the 50-50 on the scub pad. I just make sure to blow dry with my heat gun as I go. > On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peter Evans |
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255236 | Chuck Ramsey <chuck-ramsey@l...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
The original poster wrote: "I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. Penalty for failure is severe and messy." What's "high-strength steel"? I understand that HSS is High Speed Steel and that HSS has atoms other than iron and carbon added to prevent/reduce loosing the temper of the tool in some applications. But what is 19th century high-strength steel? I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less. I believe that I have added pits to tools from prolonged soaking. I haven't tried any other chemical methods because vinegar is cheap, readily available, and kitchen counter safe. Now I pay more attention to how long the parts are in the vinegar bath. I haven't tried diluting vinegar but I may in the future. I recall the Old Mill Rat writing about a rasp that had a long soak in a much stronger acid. When the rasp was removed from the acid it was perforated much like a surform as I recall. chuck ________________________________________ From: OldTools |
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255238 | Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Maximal Shop Envy. |
Very interesting Nichael, But I found his other video much more galoot friendly. https://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=jAYP6pWrdkc My next tool cabinet will incorporate "floating chisels" as part of the design plan. Paul, in San Francisco On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 7:02 PM, curt seeliger |
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255242 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:19, Chuck Ramsey |
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255243 | Chuck Ramsey <chuck-ramsey@l...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Yeah Adam- Springs are one of the things I've totally ruined too. And your comment about revealing or adding pits is also close to my experience. I dunno either because there was too much rust covering the item before I put it in the vinegar to do an inventory of the pits. chuck ________________________________________ > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:19, Chuck Ramsey |
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255245 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
I believe that springs are high on the list of things easy to damage by hydrogen embrittlement. This was possibly the origin of the question. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Chuck Ramsey |
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255246 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Adam R. Maxwell |
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255247 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> On Jun 29, 2015, at 16:09, Matthew Groves |
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255248 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
On Jun 29, 2015, at 16:38, Kirk Eppler |
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255249 | John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> | 2015‑06‑29 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
If using vinegar will damage springs, it stands to reason that vinegar would not be good to use on saw plates seeing as they are made of spring steel. Doc John Holladay 205-229-8484 docholladay0820@g... |
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255252 | David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
I’ve been fiddling with different methods of rust removal since being bitten by the rust bug. Chemical methods have advantages. Instead of rubbing and scrubbing to get the effects of oxygen off of my iron and steel the use of chemicals like citric, hydrochloric, and the case of vinegar acetic acid, acts on the surface rust almost effortlessly. But like all really easy options there is a catch. The acid will dissolve the rust fairly quickly. When the rust surface is removed the acid starts working on the iron and steel. I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled. I have a theory that I believe explains both the screw being smaller and the more useful effect the acid has on the sharpening of files. Since I believe the acid works on all surfaces equally the acid removes an iron atom from every surface it touches. The screw thread, and file teeth, are triangular is cross section. Since the acid is working on the all surfaces the two sides each lose an atom and the point loses one also. That causes the thread, and tooth, to get thinner twice as fast as it gets shorter. Good for file sharpening not so good for cleaning screws. The file getting thinner doesn’t affect its function. The screw, on the other hand, has a problem when the diameter is reduced. Not only does the diameter get smaller, the thread is getting narrower. Next thing you know the thread is too small and ruined. What does this long explanation have to do with pits? Like a tooth, or thread, pits have two sides so they get wider twice as fast as they get shallower. Mechanical methods only work on the surface with the result that the pit can only get shallower. I think the same thing happens with any surface imperfection. A spring with a crack will get cleaner and have a bigger crack when the process is done. Add the effect of packing a bunch of hydrogen atoms into the iron carbon matrix and the spring ends up inflexible. I think that any weakness is multiplied by the chemical method. When I dealt with armor plate it was imperative that the metallurgy remain unchanged by the process. During the painting process I could use a chemical pretreat on 12560 with no concerns. 12560 is tough. MARS300 is hard. It couldn't be pretreated because it would crack 3 days later. Hydrogen embrittlement was the cause. |
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255254 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Great thread. I seem to have lucked out in not putting smaller items in vinegar....will avoid that. Speaking of springs....I just cleaned up a Stanley 741, SW vintage. Pulling it apart the three chuck jaws had no tension on them. Sure you can open and close but they just rattle. It looks to me like the jaws have recesses for springs. Maybe the previous owner soaked it in acid, because there are no springs at all. Anyone know a source? > On Jun 29, 2015, at 9:43 PM, David Nighswander |
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255256 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> On Jun 29, 2015, at 20:56 , Mark Pfeifer |
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255260 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> If using vinegar will damage springs, it stands to reason that vinegar > would not be good to use on saw plates seeing as they are made of > spring > steel. I just used vinegar on the plate of a circa 1890 Disston 10 inch back saw with no apparent (at least not yet) ill effects. The handle is gorgeous, but some idiot left it to gather dust in an open shop for maybe a decade or two. The dust absorbed all the ambient moisture with predictable results. I've had some luck making springs out of old file tangs. Annealed, they work pretty easily. Mike in Sacto |
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255265 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
MAking a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful for you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone can post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace Stanley 741, SW vintage Don Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance. Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast and Slow On 2015-06-30 12:30 AM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: >> >On Jun 29, 2015, at 20:56 , Mark Pfeifer |
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255269 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Don Schwartz |
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255272 | Erik Levin | 2015‑06‑30 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> You might get lucky and find a ballpoint pen spring that fits, but I've made > coil springs for 3-jaw chucks by winding guitar string around an appropriately > (under)sized drill bit, held in a vise. It's worth trying! Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to fit is often not a big deal. Spring wire (music wire) is available at pretty much any hobby store, as well as on line, and smaller gauges are available at music stores. Note that many modern guitar strings are not suitable for use as spring material. Piano string pretty much is (AFAIK). Easy to wind, even by hand, over a mandrel. For compression springs, try a mandrel about 10 to 15% smaller than the nominal ID of the spring, and spacing can be done using another piece of wire (same or larger size, as needed). Before I had a lathe, I wound a lot of springs using nothing but a rod, some wood to grip with, and a vise. Not a metallurgist, but experience and training tell me that springs fail, often without warning, due to flaws that are not visible even under a microscope. I have seen, in large springs, flaws using mag particle and dye penetrant testing, that lead to failure not long after the tests (sometimes people don't listen when told that failure is immanent). Small springs can't really even be tested using these techniques, and a small flaw from rust or wear or impact or..... They fail. If the cleaning using reasonable technique causes a failure to a spring, to a saw plate, to anything, it was likely going to fail anyway. Of course, reasonable technique is key, as noted: >I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the >set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put >the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled. I have never had this issue (I swear. Really. No, I mean it. Am I convincing you???) but if you do, you learn quickly. To the spring, if there is a crack starting, or a deep pit under the rust, or a spot where the rust is just right, the acid clean will lead to a crack. Abrasive cleaning MIGHT not, as it will take the stress riser out by removing the material around it, rather than accentuating it by cutting into it. (A major issue when I wear my boiler inspection and repair hat) |
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255274 | Frank O'Donnell <ot@i...> | 2015‑07‑01 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Erik Levin muses: > Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to fit is often not a big deal. At one point I contemplated getting into spring-making, until I discovered this company a 15-minute drive from our home in the Los Angeles area: http://www.centuryspring.com/ It's great fun looking through their showroom, and they are generous with samples. They also have a nice catalog. Frank O'Donnell South Pasadena, CA |
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255275 | mikerock <mikerock@m...> | 2015‑07‑01 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Frank, I used them for springs for my Pratt & Whitney rifling machines. Darned helpful and knowledgeable. Fun to work with too as he is into guns big time. Mike On 6/30/2015 8:28 PM, Frank O'Donnell wrote: > Erik Levin muses: > > > Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to > fit is often not a big deal. > > At one point I contemplated getting into spring-making, until I > discovered this company a 15-minute drive from our home in the Los > Angeles area: > > http://www.centuryspring.com/ |
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255276 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2015‑07‑01 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
George Langford wound made some springs for eggbeater chucks He had always wanted to. He made a jig and wound them up. To make small springs you don't have to mess with the temper of the spring wire. Just get the right size wire (Mcmaster sells foot long straight sticks of spring wire, in tubes. Lots and lots of them in a tube! They aren't too expensive.) and make a simple jig, whatever you need. Wind them a lot tighter than you need (spring back). its just a matter of experimentation. I have made a lot of one off springs in my life. If I can do it.......... yours Scott ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://w ww.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest. net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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255278 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2015‑07‑01 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
> On Jun 30, 2015, at 11:32 , Kirk Eppler |
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255297 | "Peter Evans" <peterrevans@o...> | 2015‑07‑02 | Re: Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy |
Spring steel should not go into acid, especially if under tension. I have not seen the effect on spring steel because I have never used it on spring steel including saws. Acid keeps on working after the rust is removed and etches steel - that is how files are sharpened after all. Cast iron seems less affected. The solution is vigilance, checking items regularly and removing earlier rather than later is the method. I removed some superficial rust from NOS files after 15 minutes in the citric. Followed by removing ALL moisture with a hair dryer. Cheers Peter Peter Evans Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools- bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Chuck Ramsey Sent: Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:12 AM To: Adam R. Maxwell; oldtools@s... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Yeah Adam- Springs are one of the things I've totally ruined too. And your comment about revealing or adding pits is also close to my experience. I dunno either because there was too much rust covering the item before I put it in the vinegar to do an inventory of the pits. chuck |
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