Please respond off-list as this is only loosely related to old tools.

I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 
1800's.  I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. 
Penalty for failure is severe and messy.

Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust?  
I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a 
serious issue.

Thanks for any advice, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

why is this off topic?

> On Jun 27, 2015, at 7:50 AM, Gary Katsanis  wrote:
> 
> Please respond off-list as this is only loosely related to old tools.
> 
> I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 1800's.
I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. Penalty for failure is
severe and messy.
> 
> Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust?  I've
heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a serious issue.
> 
> Thanks for any advice, Gary Katsanis
> Albion New York, USA

On 28/06/2015 2:50 a.m., Gary Katsanis wrote:
> I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the
> 1800's.  I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition.
> Penalty for failure is severe and messy.
>
> Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust?
> I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a
> serious issue.

I don't know about what electrolysis might do the the metal, but I 
remove rust with a mixture of 9 parts water to 1 part molasses, soak the 
part in this mixture taking it out every few days to scrub off the dead 
rust sludge and the re-submerging, it removes only rust and there is no 
way it will be effecting the metal.

Once all the rust is gone which can take from a couple of days to a few 
weeks depending on the depth of the rust, you give the metal a buff with 
a wire wheel and a coat of 3-in1 oil to protect the new surface, unless 
you're going to paint it in which case just leave the matt surface alone 
and just paint it.

I have done this many times and I find the process perfect.

It has the advantage of only eating the rust and not attacking the metal 
which the other processes tend to do.

And if you buy stock feed molasses it will be even cheaper.

Michael
NZ

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 27, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Gary Katsanis  wrote:
> 
> Please respond off-list as this is only loosely related to old tools.
> 
> I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 1800's.
I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. Penalty for failure is
severe and messy.
> 
> Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust?  I've
heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a serious issue.

This topic was well covered on the list in the 2000 - 2002 range. I remember
because I was de rusting a lot of saws while living in a very small shop after
selling the house and before finally retiring and moving east. What I have to
say is well filtered by time thru a sieve for a brain, hence light on details. A
careful search of the archives might be your best bet.

As I recall, the hydrogen could be baked back out by letting the metal object
soak in a heat for a period of time. Time and temp are now lost to me.  But,
based on the description at the time I decided that leaving the saw in the sun
on the roof of the shop for a few days would be sufficient to reduce any such
risk. I did that before sharpening the saws and can report that no tooth broke
during sharpening, and better yet no saw broke in use. Therefore one must
conclude the treatment was successful.

About the same time I did salvage a non-wood working piece of late 19th C.
equipment thru the electrolysis method and was quite happy with the the outcome.

Good luck with your project.

Bill

I don't trust citric acid anymore.  3 out of the set of Stanley 45 
blades came out cracked.
Cheers

I used to think that molasses works on rust because it is rich in 
vitamin C :  Ascorbic acid

But it's actually way more complicated than that
There are several chelating agents in molasses that bind specifically to 
metals
  There's copper oxide which interacts with rust as a reducing agent
Glucose acts as a reducing agent too

Doesn't citric acid fix cracks?

Cheers
Peter

Peter Evans
Sydney, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Adrian
Jones
Sent: Monday, 29 June 2015 12:14 AM
To: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy

I don't trust citric acid anymore.  3 out of the set of Stanley 45 blades
came out cracked.
Cheers

Sure does!  Guaranteed not to rip, tear, pull hair, show wear, and makes 
childbirth practically a pleasure! ;)

On 6/28/2015 6:16 PM, Peter Evans wrote:
> Doesn't citric acid fix cracks?
>
> Cheers
> Peter
>

That's entirely on topic, IMO.  Everyone knows that silver sputtering is a
great lubricant and is a prerequisite to success when scary sharpening.
And his vacuum pumps were all treadle-powered.

cur

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Nichael Cramer  wrote:

> 1] At the indulgence of the ListMoms, I acknowledge that this isn't
> really "old" tools (consequently, it's probably better if any responses
> are off-line)....
>
> https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=GuCdsyCWmt8
>
> 2]... but that said, I think it's safe to say that this captures
> The True Galoot Spirit[tm] to a T.
>
> 3] In any case, it's worth watching the video just to hear
> his first sentence.
>
> N
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

I still use electrolysis for sensitive things (plane body, saw blade) but have
started using a 50-50 mix of white vinegar and water with great results. Faster,
cleaner, safer.

And I swear the "black stuff" comes off easier after electrolysis if I put some
of the 50-50 on the scub pad. I just make sure to blow dry with my heat gun as I
go.



> On Jun 28, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Peter Evans  wrote:
> 
> Doesn't citric acid fix cracks?
> 
> Cheers
> Peter
> 
> Peter Evans
> Sydney, Australia
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Adrian
> Jones
> Sent: Monday, 29 June 2015 12:14 AM
> To: oldtools@s...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy
> 
> I don't trust citric acid anymore.  3 out of the set of Stanley 45 blades
> came out cracked.
> Cheers
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
> 
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

The original poster wrote:

"I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the
1800's.  I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition.
Penalty for failure is severe and messy."

What's "high-strength steel"?  I understand that HSS is High Speed Steel and
that HSS has atoms other than
iron and carbon added to prevent/reduce loosing the temper of the tool in some
applications.  But what is
19th century high-strength steel?

I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less.  I believe
that I have added pits to tools from prolonged
soaking.  I haven't tried any other chemical methods because vinegar is cheap,
readily available, and kitchen counter safe.
Now I pay more attention to how long the parts are in the vinegar bath.  I
haven't tried diluting vinegar but I may in the future.
I recall the Old Mill Rat writing about a rasp that had a long soak in a much
stronger acid.  When the rasp was removed
from the acid it was perforated much like a surform as I recall.

chuck

________________________________________
From: OldTools  on behalf of Mark Pfeifer

Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:21 AM
To: Peter Evans
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy

I still use electrolysis for sensitive things (plane body, saw blade) but have
started using a 50-50 mix of white vinegar and water with great results. Faster,
cleaner, safer.

And I swear the "black stuff" comes off easier after electrolysis if I put some
of the 50-50 on the scub pad. I just make sure to blow dry with my heat gun as I
go.

Very interesting Nichael,

But I found his other video much more galoot friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=jAYP6pWrdkc

My next tool cabinet will incorporate "floating chisels" as part of the
design plan.

Paul, in San Francisco

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 7:02 PM, curt seeliger  wrote:

> That's entirely on topic, IMO.  Everyone knows that silver sputtering is a
> great lubricant and is a prerequisite to success when scary sharpening.
> And his vacuum pumps were all treadle-powered.
>
> cur
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Nichael Cramer  wrote:
>
> > 1] At the indulgence of the ListMoms, I acknowledge that this isn't
> > really "old" tools (consequently, it's probably better if any responses
> > are off-line)....
> >
> > https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=GuCdsyCWmt8
> >
> > 2]... but that said, I think it's safe to say that this captures
> > The True Galoot Spirit[tm] to a T.
> >
> > 3] In any case, it's worth watching the video just to hear
> > his first sentence.
> >
> > N
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://o
ldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/arc
hive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
> >
> > OldTools@s...
> > http://o
ldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

> On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:19, Chuck Ramsey  wrote:
> 
> I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less.  I believe
that I have added pits to tools from prolonged
> soaking.

Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C spring
on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more careful.

Adam

Yeah Adam-
Springs are one of the things I've totally ruined too.  And your comment about
revealing or adding pits is also
close to my experience.  I dunno either because there was too much rust covering
the item before I put it in
the vinegar to do an inventory of the pits.
chuck

________________________________________

> On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:19, Chuck Ramsey  wrote:
>
> I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less.  I believe
that I have added pits to tools from prolonged
> soaking.

Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C spring
on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more careful.

Adam

I believe that springs are high on the list of things easy to damage by
hydrogen embrittlement. This was possibly the origin of the question.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Chuck Ramsey  wrote:

> Yeah Adam-
> Springs are one of the things I've totally ruined too.  And your comment
> about revealing or adding pits is also
> close to my experience.  I dunno either because there was too much rust
> covering the item before I put it in
> the vinegar to do an inventory of the pits.
> chuck
>
> ________________________________________
>
> > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:19, Chuck Ramsey  wrote:
> >
> > I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less.  I
> believe that I have added pits to tools from prolonged
> > soaking.
>
> Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C
> spring on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more
> careful.
>
> Adam
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
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>
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>
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> http://old
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>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Adam R. Maxwell  wrote:

> Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C
> spring on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more
> careful.


Or was it a case of the rust holding things together.

Seen a few.

Kirk in HMB, heading home soon.

> On Jun 29, 2015, at 16:09, Matthew Groves  wrote:
> 
> I believe that springs are high on the list of things easy to damage by
hydrogen embrittlement. This was possibly the origin of the question.

What, I should be keeping up with threads before replying? ;) Yeah, the spring
steel embrittlement problem is why I continue to use WD and sandpaper to clean
saws. Maybe it's superstition on my part, but…

Adam

On Jun 29, 2015, at 16:38, Kirk Eppler  wrote:

>> Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C
spring on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more careful.
> 
> Or was it a case of the rust holding things together.

Not this time. The spring worked fine before I put it in, and looked fine when I
took it out. Snapped as soon as I reinstalled it and closed the dividers.

(If anyone has a spare or ideas for making a new one, let me know).

Adam

If using vinegar will damage springs,  it stands to reason that vinegar
would not be good to use on saw plates seeing as they are made of spring
steel.

Doc

John Holladay
205-229-8484
docholladay0820@g...

I’ve been fiddling with different methods of rust removal since being bitten by
the rust bug.
Chemical methods have advantages. Instead of rubbing and scrubbing to get the
effects of oxygen off of my iron and steel the use of chemicals like citric,
hydrochloric, and the case of vinegar acetic acid, acts on the surface rust
almost effortlessly. But like all really easy options there is a catch. The acid
will dissolve the rust fairly quickly. When the rust surface is removed the acid
starts working on the iron and steel.
I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the
set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put
the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled.
I have a theory that I believe explains both the screw being smaller and the
more useful effect the acid has on the sharpening of files.
Since I believe the acid works on all surfaces equally the acid removes an iron
atom from every surface it touches. The screw thread, and file teeth, are
triangular is cross section. Since the acid is working on the all surfaces the
two sides each lose an atom and the point loses one also. That causes the
thread, and tooth, to get thinner twice as fast as it gets shorter. Good for
file sharpening not so good for cleaning screws. The file getting thinner
doesn’t affect its function. The screw, on the other hand, has a problem when
the diameter is reduced. Not only does the diameter get smaller, the thread is
getting narrower. Next thing you know the thread is too small and ruined.



What does this long explanation have to do with pits? 
Like a tooth, or thread, pits have two sides so they get wider twice as fast as
they get shallower. Mechanical methods only work on the surface with the result
that the pit can only get shallower.
I think the same thing happens with any surface imperfection. A spring with a
crack will get cleaner and have a bigger crack when the process is done.
Add the effect of packing a bunch of hydrogen atoms into the iron carbon matrix
and the spring ends up inflexible. I think that any weakness is multiplied by
the chemical method.
When I dealt with armor plate it was imperative that the metallurgy remain
unchanged by the process. During the painting process I could use a chemical
pretreat on 12560 with no concerns. 12560 is tough. MARS300 is hard. It couldn't
be pretreated because it would crack 3 days later. Hydrogen embrittlement was
the cause.

Great thread. I seem to have lucked out in not putting smaller items in
vinegar....will avoid that.

Speaking of springs....I just cleaned up a Stanley 741, SW vintage.

Pulling it apart the three chuck jaws had no tension on them. Sure you can open
and close but they just rattle.

It looks to me like the jaws have recesses for springs. Maybe the previous owner
soaked it in acid, because there are no springs at all.

Anyone know a source?



> On Jun 29, 2015, at 9:43 PM, David Nighswander 
wrote:
> 
> I’ve been fiddling with different methods of rust removal since being bitten
by the rust bug.
> Chemical methods have advantages. Instead of rubbing and scrubbing to get the
effects of oxygen off of my iron and steel the use of chemicals like citric,
hydrochloric, and the case of vinegar acetic acid, acts on the surface rust
almost effortlessly. But like all really easy options there is a catch. The acid
will dissolve the rust fairly quickly. When the rust surface is removed the acid
starts working on the iron and steel.
> I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of
the set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to
put the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled.
> I have a theory that I believe explains both the screw being smaller and the
more useful effect the acid has on the sharpening of files.
> Since I believe the acid works on all surfaces equally the acid removes an
iron atom from every surface it touches. The screw thread, and file teeth, are
triangular is cross section. Since the acid is working on the all surfaces the
two sides each lose an atom and the point loses one also. That causes the
thread, and tooth, to get thinner twice as fast as it gets shorter. Good for
file sharpening not so good for cleaning screws. The file getting thinner
doesn’t affect its function. The screw, on the other hand, has a problem when
the diameter is reduced. Not only does the diameter get smaller, the thread is
getting narrower. Next thing you know the thread is too small and ruined.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this long explanation have to do with pits? 
> Like a tooth, or thread, pits have two sides so they get wider twice as fast
as they get shallower. Mechanical methods only work on the surface with the
result that the pit can only get shallower.
> I think the same thing happens with any surface imperfection. A spring with a
crack will get cleaner and have a bigger crack when the process is done.
> Add the effect of packing a bunch of hydrogen atoms into the iron carbon
matrix and the spring ends up inflexible. I think that any weakness is
multiplied by the chemical method.
> When I dealt with armor plate it was imperative that the metallurgy remain
unchanged by the process. During the painting process I could use a chemical
pretreat on 12560 with no concerns. 12560 is tough. MARS300 is hard. It couldn't
be pretreated because it would crack 3 days later. Hydrogen embrittlement was
the cause.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
> 
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

> On Jun 29, 2015, at 20:56 , Mark Pfeifer  wrote:
> 
> It looks to me like the jaws have recesses for springs. Maybe the previous
owner soaked it in acid, because there are no springs at all.
> 
> Anyone know a source?

You might get lucky and find a ballpoint pen spring that fits, but I've made
coil springs for 3-jaw chucks by winding guitar string around an appropriately
(under)sized drill bit, held in a vise. It's worth trying!

Adam

> If using vinegar will damage springs,  it stands to reason that vinegar
> would not be good to use on saw plates seeing as they are made of 
> spring
> steel.

I just used vinegar on the plate of a circa 1890 Disston 10 inch back 
saw
with no apparent (at least not yet) ill effects.  The handle is 
gorgeous,
but some idiot left it to gather dust in an open shop for maybe a decade
or two.  The dust absorbed all the ambient moisture with predictable
results.

I've had some luck making springs out of old file tangs.  Annealed, they
work pretty easily.

Mike in Sacto

MAking a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful 
for you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone 
can post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace

Stanley 741, SW vintage


Don

Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure
foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance.
Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast and Slow

On 2015-06-30 12:30 AM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
>> >On Jun 29, 2015, at 20:56 , Mark Pfeifer  wrote:
>> >
>> >It looks to me like the jaws have recesses for springs. Maybe the previous
owner soaked it in acid, because there are no springs at all.
>> >
>> >Anyone know a source?
> You might get lucky and find a ballpoint pen spring that fits, but I've made
coil springs for 3-jaw chucks by winding guitar string around an appropriately
(under)sized drill bit, held in a vise. It's worth trying!
>
> Adam

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> MAking a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful for
> you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone can
> post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace


http://www.bob-
easton.com/blog/2009/963/

Bob has a thing on winding your own springs here.  Seems like George's
Basement had something on stealing them from Ball Point pens, but I can't
find that link anymore.


-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, who got another baby step done in garage cleanup last
night.  997 more to go.

> You might get lucky and find a ballpoint pen spring that fits, but I've made
> coil springs for 3-jaw chucks by winding guitar string around an appropriately
> (under)sized drill bit, held in a vise. It's worth trying!

Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to fit is often
not a big deal.


Spring wire (music wire) is available at pretty much any hobby store, as well as
on line, and smaller gauges are available at music stores. Note that many modern
guitar strings are not suitable for use as spring material. Piano string pretty
much is (AFAIK). Easy to wind, even by hand, over a mandrel. For compression
springs, try a mandrel about 10 to 15% smaller than the nominal ID of the
spring, and spacing can be done using another piece of wire (same or larger
size, as needed). Before I had a lathe, I wound a lot of springs using nothing
but a rod, some wood to grip with, and a vise.


Not a metallurgist, but experience and training tell me that springs fail, often
without warning, due to flaws that are not visible even under a microscope. I
have seen, in large springs, flaws using mag particle and dye penetrant testing,
that lead to failure not long after the tests (sometimes people don't listen
when told that failure is immanent). Small springs can't really even be tested
using these techniques, and a small flaw from rust or wear or impact or.....
They fail. If the cleaning using reasonable technique causes a failure to a
spring, to a saw plate, to anything, it was likely going to fail anyway.

Of course, reasonable technique is key, as noted:


>I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the
>set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put
>the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled.

I have never had this issue (I swear. Really. No, I mean it. Am I convincing
you???) but if you do, you learn quickly. To the spring, if there is a crack
starting, or a deep pit under the rust, or a spot where the rust is just right,
the acid clean will lead to a crack. Abrasive cleaning MIGHT not, as it will
take the stress riser out by removing the material around it, rather than
accentuating it by cutting into it. (A major issue when I wear my boiler
inspection and repair hat)

Erik Levin muses:

 > Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to 
fit is often not a big deal.

At one point I contemplated getting into spring-making, until I 
discovered this company a 15-minute drive from our home in the Los 
Angeles area:

http://www.centuryspring.com/

It's great fun looking through their showroom, and they are generous 
with samples. They also have a nice catalog.

Frank O'Donnell
South Pasadena, CA

Frank,
I used them for springs for my Pratt & Whitney rifling machines.  Darned 
helpful and knowledgeable.  Fun to work with too as he is into guns big 
time.

Mike

On 6/30/2015 8:28 PM, Frank O'Donnell wrote:
> Erik Levin muses:
>
>  > Making a spring is easy, and finding a commercially made spring to
> fit is often not a big deal.
>
> At one point I contemplated getting into spring-making, until I
> discovered this company a 15-minute drive from our home in the Los
> Angeles area:
>
> http://www.centuryspring.com/

George Langford wound made some springs for eggbeater chucks
   He had always wanted to. He made a jig and wound them up.

  To make small springs you don't have to mess with the temper of the 
spring wire.
  Just get the right size wire (Mcmaster sells foot long straight sticks 
of spring wire, in tubes. Lots and lots of them in a tube! They aren't 
too expensive.)
  and make a simple jig, whatever you need.
   Wind them a lot tighter than you need (spring back).
its just a matter of experimentation.
    I have made a lot of one off springs in my life.
If I can do it..........
        yours Scott


******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 
96039 scottg@s... http://w
ww.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
http://www.snowcrest.
net/kitty/hpages/index.html

> On Jun 30, 2015, at 11:32 , Kirk Eppler  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
>> MAking a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful for
>> you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone can
>> post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace
> 
> 
> http://www.bob-
easton.com/blog/2009/963/
> 
> Bob has a thing on winding your own springs here.  Seems like George's
> Basement had something on stealing them from Ball Point pens, but I can't
> find that link anymore.

Pretty sure I got it from a post by Ed Balko in this thread:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=70703&submit_thread=1
">http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=70703&submit_thread=1

There's a bunch of stuff in the archives about music wire vs.
piano wire vs. arn wire that I don't pretend to understand;
my local hardware store has some stuff labeled "music wire"
that I've used for brace springs, though. Worth a check if you
don't want to do the McMaster order like Scott mentioned!

> 
> Kirk Eppler in HMB, who got another baby step done in garage cleanup last
> night.  997 more to go.

This is what I do between projects. It gives the illusion of progress
without the pressure of a deadline.

Adam

Spring steel should not go into acid, especially if under tension. I have
not seen the effect on spring steel because I have never used it on spring
steel including saws.

 Acid keeps on working after the rust is removed and etches steel - that is
how files are sharpened after all. Cast iron seems less affected. 

The solution is vigilance, checking items regularly and removing earlier
rather than later is the method. I removed some superficial rust from NOS
files after 15 minutes in the citric. Followed by removing ALL moisture with
a hair dryer.


Cheers
Peter

Peter Evans
Sydney, Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Chuck
Ramsey
Sent: Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:12 AM
To: Adam R. Maxwell; oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy

Yeah Adam-
Springs are one of the things I've totally ruined too.  And your comment
about revealing or adding pits is also close to my experience.  I dunno
either because there was too much rust covering the item before I put it in
the vinegar to do an inventory of the pits.
chuck