OldTools Archive
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229173 | Norm Wood <nbwood@l...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Repairs to lacquer |
GGs, I'm another who's taken a long leave from the topside of the porch, and I hate to come back with a question (actually, 2) rather than a contribution, but here I am. I'm trying to identify the finish on our cabinetry and some other woodwork in prep for making repairs. Alcohol seems to soften the finish a bit, making it slightly tacky but not dissolving it. Scrubbing with an acetone-dampened rag takes it off, and drops of acetone on the surface bubbles the finish slightly before the acetone evaporates. Looking back here: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=81071&submit_thread=1#message which gives some info from one of Bob Flexner's book, I think I have lacquer, but do these tests rule out polyurethane? I've seen mixed info on the web regarding the effects of acetone on poly, but I think the softening in alcohol wouldn't happen with poly. If lacquer, my understanding is that new lacquer over old lacquer is OK. Has anyone had any experience using brushing lacquer (e.g. Deft Clear Wood Finish) over an existing lacquer finish? I've read that leveling can be a problem compared to spraying, but if you've encountered any other gotcha's, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thanks in advance. We're in the midst of preparing for a likely relocation, but once that's over, I hope I'll be able to come join the fun a bit more often. Regards, Norm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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229174 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
On 4/21/2012 11:12 AM, Norm Wood wrote: > GGs, > > I'm another who's taken a long leave from the topside of the porch, and > I hate to come back with a question (actually, 2) rather than a > contribution, but here I am. > > I'm trying to identify the finish on our cabinetry and some other > woodwork in prep for making repairs. Alcohol seems to soften the finish > a bit, making it slightly tacky but not dissolving it. Scrubbing with > an acetone-dampened rag takes it off, and drops of acetone on the > surface bubbles the finish slightly before the acetone evaporates. > Looking back here: > > > http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=81071&submit_thread=1#mess age > > which gives some info from one of Bob Flexner's book, I think I have > lacquer, but do these tests rule out polyurethane? I've seen mixed info > on the web regarding the effects of acetone on poly, but I think the > softening in alcohol wouldn't happen with poly. > > If lacquer, my understanding is that new lacquer over old lacquer is OK. > Has anyone had any experience using brushing lacquer (e.g. Deft Clear > Wood Finish) over an existing lacquer finish? I've read that leveling > can be a problem compared to spraying, but if you've encountered any > other gotcha's, I'd appreciate hearing about them. > > Thanks in advance. We're in the midst of preparing for a likely > relocation, but once that's over, I hope I'll be able to come join the fun > a bit more often. > > Regards, > > Norm Sounds like lacquer alright. I haven't used the Deft product but it should do you fine. The main thing with lacquer (apart from excellent ventilation and no fires burning) is you have to be quick, then leave it alone to dry. Follow mfr's instructions, especially where it says 'light coats'. Practice somewhere it doesn't matter. Find out how much you need to thin it in order to keep it under control. Bonus with lacquer is if you mess up, it comes back off easily! FWIW Don -- I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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229178 | gary may <garyallanmay@y...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
Hi Don--- Sounds like fun, where do you start? ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and they h ad a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked pretty mu ch like shellac. The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam 'testing' fo r dry, the usual varnish probs. I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a way to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be. I *do* like lacquer, properl y done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary guys a nd their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it arriv es at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad generall y, and just OK at best, IMHO. Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used paste floor wax on top, btw. keep in touch---gam in OlyWA If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill --- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz |
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229180 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
On 4/21/2012 11:06 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: > Norm > I am still "on the fence". > Its not poly though. > I don't think real laq is softened by alcohol either? > So its probably shellac. > > Deft brushing lacquer is not lacquer! I don't know what it is, really. I > suspect automotive clear coat (acrylic enamel??) or similar. > But its no particle of traditional nitrocellulose laq, as in musical > instruments, whatever it is. > > Open the deft and open a can of laq and your nose will surely know! > > Both shellac and laq are naturals for repair, since either bonds to the > previous coats of itself, as if it was one. > > Its a little odd. You eyedropper or brush drop into the offending chasm, > then when set, sand off 80% of what you deposited > (it makes a wrinkly doughnut of finish all around the edge, most > irritatingly I might add) > taking wild care with the surface just adjacent. > > Then again. Sometimes 3 times to totally fill if the finish is deep. > > Pretty soon you can polish it back out bright and never know it was > there at all. > > I wasn't able to do this the first time, without trouble. > That's ok, there are always more coats possible. > yours Scott > -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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229182 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
On 4/21/2012 3:02 PM, gary may wrote: > Hi Don--- > Sounds like fun, where do you start? > > ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and t hey had a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked pret ty much like shellac. > > The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam 'testin g' for dry, the usual varnish probs. > > I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a way to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be. I *do* like lacquer, pr operly done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary g uys and their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it arrives at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad gen erally, and just OK at best, IMHO. > > Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used paste floor wax on top, btw. > keep in touch---gam in OlyWA > > > If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill > > > --- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz |
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229188 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
> But Deft still recommends using lacquer thinners for clean-up, All of the acrylic enamel car paints, and their relatives, use laq thinner for cleanup. If you use laquer thinner to actually thin it though, it will dry as flat as the street. No gloss at all. I have made this mistake, doh! Use enamel reducer if you want it shiny. This comes fast, med and slow btw. Plus there are other additives in the industry like hardener, retarder and super gloss etc. I have a partial gallon of traditional nitrocellulose lacquer I dole out miserly. (I'll open the can for mere seconds, dip out a 1/2 or 1/4 pint, drip in a bit of thinner, and then slap the lid back down! Thoroughly tapping all around twice with a rubber mallet, and then flipping upside down for a few seconds to make sure the underside of the lid is coated.) I've also got plenty of Deft, since its so easy to get. Most definitely -not- the same stuff. Not at all. I haven't tried Minwax yet, but I still suspect its another acrylic enamel relative. Auto acrylic enamel clear coat, the professional stuff, you can get under $30 a gallon most places. Actual colored paint costs 3 or even 6 times more than that now, which is why all cars are clear coated these days. Its down to a whisp of paint, and coats of clear on top, in the autobody world. Traditional lacquer from the instrument supply, costs around $100 a gallon. This is why I expect most things sold as lacquer, especially at any big box warehouse store, will be clear coat, in drag. yours again Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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229183 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑04‑21 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
On 4/21/2012 4:03 PM, scott grandstaff wrote: > On 4/21/2012 11:06 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: >> Norm >> I am still "on the fence". >> Its not poly though. >> I don't think real laq is softened by alcohol either? >> So its probably shellac. >> >> Deft brushing lacquer is not lacquer! I don't know what it is, really. I >> suspect automotive clear coat (acrylic enamel??) or similar. >> But its no particle of traditional nitrocellulose laq, as in musical >> instruments, whatever it is. >> >> Open the deft and open a can of laq and your nose will surely know! >> >> Both shellac and laq are naturals for repair, since either bonds to the >> previous coats of itself, as if it was one. >> >> Its a little odd. You eyedropper or brush drop into the offending chasm, >> then when set, sand off 80% of what you deposited >> (it makes a wrinkly doughnut of finish all around the edge, most >> irritatingly I might add) >> taking wild care with the surface just adjacent. >> >> Then again. Sometimes 3 times to totally fill if the finish is deep. >> >> Pretty soon you can polish it back out bright and never know it was >> there at all. >> >> I wasn't able to do this the first time, without trouble. >> That's ok, there are always more coats possible. >> yours Scott >> > > Scott: Interesting observations. I like the eyedropper trick! I suspect the mfrs are all changing formulas to make their products more compliant with environmental & health regulations. LEED and all that. But Deft still recommends using lacquer thinners for clean-up, FWIW. I'm no chemist, but I had a quick look at the MSDS info for the Deft & Minwax products and they do seem rather different. In particular, the Deft lists nitrocellulose, whereas the Minwax doesn't. Conversely, the Minwax contains Acetone, and the Deft does not. Maybe it's the acetone you're missing in the Deft? Don, looking for excuses to avoid doing taxes... -- I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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229240 | Norm Wood <nbwood@l...> | 2012‑04‑22 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
Hi Don, Scott, Gary, I'm sorry I "posted and ran", but the weekend got eaten up with overdue landscape work, drywall repairs, and painting. I snuck away for a little while and came back to find a gold mine of info. You guys are great! Now I'm all curious about just what _should_be in a can of lacquer. My cabinets aren't deserving of the really good stuff Scott described, but I'll take a close look at the ingredients before I buy my supplies. I definitely don't want to end up with some plasticky meass peeling off the old finish. So it sounds like I'll need to build up some areas of missing finish (Scott's eydropper technique, sounds easier said than done), then go over with some full coats. Don, what do you use for rubbing out the final coat? Fine steel wool? I imagine using a gloss lacquer will give a harder finish, but I'll probably try to knock it back to a semi-gloss. Thanks, guys, this sounds do-able. I'll make some trial runs the next couple of days. Best, Norm On 21 Apr., Don Schwartz wrote: > > On 4/21/2012 3:02 PM, gary may wrote: > >Hi Don--- > > Sounds like fun, where do you start? > > > ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and they had a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked pre tty much like shellac. > > > The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam 'testi ng' for dry, the usual varnish probs. > > > I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a way to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be. I *do* like lacquer, p roperly done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary guys and their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it arrives at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad ge nerally, and just OK at best, IMHO. > > > Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used paste floor wax on top, btw. > > keep in touch---gam in OlyWA > > > > > >If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill > > > > > >--- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz |
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229246 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑04‑22 | Re: Repairs to lacquer |
On 4/22/2012 9:51 PM, Norm Wood wrote: > Hi Don, Scott, Gary, > > I'm sorry I "posted and ran", but the weekend got eaten up with overdue > landscape work, drywall repairs, and painting. I snuck away for a > little while and came back to find a gold mine of info. You guys are > great! > > Now I'm all curious about just what _should_be in a can of lacquer. My > cabinets aren't deserving of the really good stuff Scott described, but > I'll take a close look at the ingredients before I buy my supplies. > I definitely don't want to end up with some plasticky meass peeling off > the old finish. > > So it sounds like I'll need to build up some areas of missing finish > (Scott's eydropper technique, sounds easier said than done), then go > over with some full coats. > > Don, what do you use for rubbing out the final coat? Fine steel wool? > I imagine using a gloss lacquer will give a harder finish, but I'll > probably try to knock it back to a semi-gloss. > > Thanks, guys, this sounds do-able. I'll make some trial runs the next > couple of days. > > Best, > > Norm > If you've built up a good thickness, you can sand with 600x or finer (preferably wetted) backed by felt or cork, to remove any nastiness without worrying about cutting through layers. Just be careful on the edges. After that, wash off , dry & switch to steel wool 000 or 0000. Don -- I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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