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181858 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2008‑08‑03 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
On Aug 3, 2008, at 9:26 AM, jamesbrown wrote:

I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00:

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

   Oh the SUCKAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spike Cornelius
PDX
           Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181862 "Mike Wenzloff" <mwenz@w...> 2008‑08‑03 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
>    I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00:

Good grab, James!

If it is George Bishop, it is a *very* early one. It sure doesn't look like 
any American George Bishop saw I have seen.

There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker beginning in 
1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well could be from 
before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at least by S&J 
according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!).

The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845):
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg
As well as a couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that I 
only have handle images of and no maker's names.

Me thinks it is English.

Take care, Mike 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181856 "jamesbrown" <james.brown9@m...> 2008‑08‑03 Old saw with blank medallion
    I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563539.jpg
 I was especially intrigued by the lack of any stamping on the large, 1 inch 
medallion:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563534.jpg
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563532.jpg
 Upon cleaning by electrolysis, the blade was found to have a small stamped 
mark:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563524.jpg
 The name appears to be either G. Bishop (Geo. Bishop?) or C. Bishop; the 
initial is incomplete. The blade also has the faint remnant of a nib:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563527.jpg
  I'm curious as to whether the medallion has had any stamping removed, or 
if some early saws came with blank medallions. I also welcome any thoughts 
as to whether this is in fact from Geo. Bishop, or some other maker.
         James in Keokuk. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181859 Charlie Driggs <cdinde@v...> 2008‑08‑03 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
I hate to think it, but that saw looks a bit overcleaned to me per the  
photo.  That person didn't take a belt sandah to it, did he?  A Bishop  
saw with no medallion markings and a minimal etch, yet very clean  
looking --  I don't know whether that's a known hallmark of those  
saws, and I don't have Erv's book to check.

Charlie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181870 "Wiktor A. Kuc" <wiktor@w...> 2008‑08‑03 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
Ray,

I am interested in finding more about Priest & Co.  Can you point me to any
source material? 

Wiktor A. Kuc 
Albuquerque, NM
505-401-6020
www.wkFineTools.com
www.wkTools.com

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 8:12 PM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion

Hi Mike, & GG's

The acid etching info,  was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in TATHS,
reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:-

http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-Simon1.a
sp

Medallion Trivia
I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co.  The makers
of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when they
didn't want to use their own medallion.  Priest & Co, registered the design
as a trademark.  Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks only
apply to the medallion not the saw?

Blank Medallions?   I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put
a blank medallion on a saw,  Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago.

Either way it's an interesting find.  Nice one James!

Regards
Ray

>
>There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker 
>beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well 
>could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at 
>least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!).
>
>The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845):
>http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg
>As well as a couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that 
>I only have handle images of and no maker's names.
>
>Me thinks it is English.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181868 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑03 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
Based on the shape and location of the handle, I'd submit (SWAG) that it's
English and early-mid 1800's.  Very, very nice old saw.  And for one U.S.
dollar?

Sheesh.  Not even.  As if.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of jamesbrown
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 12:26 PM
To: oldtools
Subject: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion

    I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563539.jpg
 I was especially intrigued by the lack of any stamping on the large, 1 inch

medallion:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563534.jpg
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563532.jpg
 Upon cleaning by electrolysis, the blade was found to have a small stamped
mark:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563524.jpg
 The name appears to be either G. Bishop (Geo. Bishop?) or C. Bishop; the
initial is incomplete. The blade also has the faint remnant of a nib:
   http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563527.jpg
  I'm curious as to whether the medallion has had any stamping removed, or
if some early saws came with blank medallions. I also welcome any thoughts
as to whether this is in fact from Geo. Bishop, or some other maker.
         James in Keokuk.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181880 "jamesbrown" <james.brown9@m...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
    Thanks to all who responded, both online and off. The general consensus 
is:
             1. The saw is most likely English, based on  the London Style 
handle.
             2. Pre-1850 time period, perhaps slightly earlier.
             3. Blank medallions are seen on early British saws.
             4. Sheffield makers Weldon & Carr Bishop are listed as working 
in the late 1700s to early 1800s. Perhaps C. Bishop is Carr Bishop.
    In any case, I'm glad I bought this saw instead of the recent-make 
Stanley he had for $3.00.
      James in Keokuk 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181879 Anthony Seo <tonyseo@p...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
At 10:11 PM 8/3/2008, Ray Gardiner wrote:

>Blank Medallions?   I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put
>a blank medallion on a saw,  Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago.

I have (probably still do but as to where is anyone's guess) a 
backsaw that has a blank medallion.   I did find a picture

http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/earlysaws/bsaw4.jpg

I'm thinking it's a Tillotson but the mark is kind of eroded.

I've also seen at least one handsaw of similar vintage that had a 
blank medallion.

Tony

                         Olde River Hard Goods
                     http://www.oldetoolshop.com
                                           TSMusic
                http://www.myspace.com/tonyseomusic

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181881 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑04 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
-----Original Message-----

At 10:11 PM 8/3/2008, Ray Gardiner wrote:

>Blank Medallions?   I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would
put
>a blank medallion on a saw

To hold the handle on?

- Bill T.
- Just say (tm PL), the idea of "advertising" on the medallion came along
later...
- p.p.s. - wondering what the function of all that artwork on those later
medallions and fancy etches is

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181869 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Hi Mike, & GG's

The acid etching info, was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in TATHS,
reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:-

http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-
Simon1.asp

Medallion Trivia I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that
Priest & Co. The makers of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that
everyone seemed to use when they didn't want to use their own
medallion. Priest & Co, registered the design as a trademark. Does that
mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks only apply to the
medallion not the saw?

Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer
would put a blank medallion on a saw, Maybe it's been re-handled
some time ago.

Either way it's an interesting find. Nice one James!

Regards Ray

>
>There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker
>beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well
>could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at
>least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!).
>
>The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845):
>http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg As well as a
>couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that I only have
>handle images of and no maker's names.
>
>Me thinks it is English.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181871 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑04 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
Hi Wiktor,

Not really, the only source material I have is Trade Directory Listings,

Kelly's 1893 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders & saw screw makers 60
Peacroft White 1901 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders, saw screw
manufacturers casters of mill brasses, moulds &c Peacroft Brass Works 60
Solly Street

White's 1919 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders 56 Eyre Lane Kelly's 1925
PRIEST =09(& Co.) brassfounders =0956 Eyre Lane

Looks like they were in business in Sheffield from 1890's to the
1920's at least.

The trade mark info came from Kelly's 1901 directory.

You might be onto something here, if you could find company records or
accounts, you would, I suspect get a good deal of information on
Sheffield tool makers for that period. ....

Like most, I have several "Warranted Superior" saws ,and often wonder
who really made them.

I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and
Ted Priest.

Regards Ray

On 8/4/2008, "Wiktor A. Kuc"  wrote:

>
>Ray,
>
>I am interested in finding more about Priest & Co. Can you point me to
>any source material?
>
>
>Wiktor A. Kuc Albuquerque, NM 505-401-6020 www.wkFineTools.com
>www.wkTools.com
>
>
>-----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-
>bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008
>8:12 PM To: oldtools@r... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Old saw with blank
>medallion
>
>
>Hi Mike, & GG's
>
>
>The acid etching info, was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in
>TATHS, reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:-
>
>http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-
>Simon1.a sp
>
>Medallion Trivia I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that
>Priest & Co. The makers of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that
>everyone seemed to use when they didn't want to use their own
>medallion. Priest & Co, registered the design as a trademark. Does that
>mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks only apply to the
>medallion not the saw?
>
>Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer
>would put a blank medallion on a saw, Maybe it's been re-handled some
>time ago.
>
>Either way it's an interesting find. Nice one James!
>
>Regards Ray
>
>
>
>>
>>There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker
>>beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it
>>well could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw
>>plate (at least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that
>>info, Ray!).
>>
>>The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845):
>>http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg As well as a
>>couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that I only have
>>handle images of and no maker's names.
>>
>>Me thinks it is English.
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
>To change your subscription options:
>http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>To read the FAQ: http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
>OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
>OldTools@r... http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181872 "Peter Evans" <peterrevans@o...> 2008‑08‑04 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
Simon Barley has done research on the companies that produced the Sheffield
transfers for etching; and this provides some evidence on who was making
what for whom. The online reference is
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS/saws/z_reading/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-S
imon2.asp, and I guess there is a lot more to be analysed. Others may have
also done research in this area. 

Cheers
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner
Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 1:02 PM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion

Hi Wiktor,

Not really, the only source material I have is Trade Directory Listings,

Kelly's   1893  PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders & saw screw makers 60 Peacroft
White    1901  PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders, saw screw manufacturers
casters of mill
                                 brasses, moulds &c Peacroft Brass Works 60
Solly Street

White's 1919  PRIEST  (& Co.) brass founders  56 Eyre Lane
Kelly's   1925  PRIEST 	(& Co.) brassfounders 	56 Eyre Lane

Looks like they were in business in Sheffield from 1890's to the 1920's at
least.

The trade mark info came from Kelly's 1901 directory.

You might be onto something here,  if you could find company records
or accounts, you would, I suspect get a good deal of information on
Sheffield tool makers for that period. ....

Like most, I have several "Warranted Superior" saws ,and often wonder
who really made them.

I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and Ted Priest.

Regards
Ray

On 8/4/2008, "Wiktor A. Kuc"  wrote:

>
>Ray,
>
>I am interested in finding more about Priest & Co.  Can you point me to any
>source material?
>
>
>Wiktor A. Kuc
>Albuquerque, NM
>505-401-6020
>www.wkFineTools.com
>www.wkTools.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: oldtools-bounces@r...
>[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner
>Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 8:12 PM
>To: oldtools@r...
>Subject: Re: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion
>
>
>Hi Mike, & GG's
>
>
>The acid etching info,  was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in TATHS,
>reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:-
>
>http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-Simon1.
a
>sp
>
>Medallion Trivia
>I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co.  The makers
>of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when
they
>didn't want to use their own medallion.  Priest & Co, registered the design
>as a trademark.  Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks
only
>apply to the medallion not the saw?
>
>Blank Medallions?   I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would
put
>a blank medallion on a saw,  Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago.
>
>Either way it's an interesting find.  Nice one James!
>
>Regards
>Ray
>
>
>
>>
>>There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker
>>beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well
>>could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at
>>least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!).
>>
>>The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845):
>>http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg
>>As well as a couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that
>>I only have handle images of and no maker's names.
>>
>>Me thinks it is English.
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
>To change your subscription options:
>http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>To read the FAQ:
>http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
>OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
>OldTools@r...
>http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181873 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑04 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
Esteemed GG's
>
>I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and
>Ted Priest.
>


And of course, being Priest's their mother would have been mother
Superior.

Regards Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181891 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
On Aug 3, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Ray Gardiner wrote:

> Medallion Trivia
> I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co.  The 
> makers of
> the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when 
> they
> didn't want to use their own medallion.  Priest & Co, registered the 
> design
> as a trademark.  Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade 
> marks only
> apply to the medallion not the saw?

	Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one company 
(Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all 
the sawnuts so marked?

Regards,
Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181904 "genfurn" <genfurn@u...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Oooooh, that was sneaky.......

Bruce Z.
Kearney, MO

> - Bill T.
> - Just say (tm PL), the idea of "advertising" on the medallion came 
> along
> later...
> - p.p.s. - wondering what the function of all that artwork on those 
> later
> medallions and fancy etches is

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181903 Don McConnell <DGMcConnell@c...> 2008‑08‑04 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Steve Reynolds wrote:

>	Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one 
>company (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and 
>made all the sawnuts so marked?
>

Thought I'd chime in here, as I had provided some relevant information
on this topic a little over a year ago (message # 169321 in the
archives). I now have a little additional information, and thought
I'd post the amended information as well as provide links to a couple of
images which may shed some light on the subject.

Just so we're clear, I believe Ray is referring to the British "Warranted
Superior" saw medallions which have the British Royal Coat of Arms in the
center. And, yes it was the registered trade mark of, not one, but two
different firms in succession.

More on that in a moment, but I first wanted to outline the two over-
lapping successions of firms which are related to this trade mark.

The first succession goes something like this, as far as I've been able
to reconstruct at present:

INGLE & TRICKETT           Sheffield            <- 1822 - 1847
      24 West Street   [1822 - 1825]
      17 Rockingham Street  [1828 - 1837]
      51 Rockingham Street  [1839 - 1847]
      ("Late Greaves and Ingle")

INGLE, JOSHUA              Sheffield               1849 ->
      51 Rockingham Street

SMITH & CO., HENRY         Sheffield            <- 1852 - 1862 ->
      51 Rockingham Street
      ("Late Ingle & Trickett")

SMITH, WILLIAM HENRY       Sheffield            <- 1879 - 1881 ->
      51 Rockingham Street

These firms are listed as brass founders throughout, with the first
mention of the making of saw screws in 1833. They were also listed as
german silver founders beginning in 1849.

The second succession of firms, goes something like this, at present:

MOORWOOD & PRIEST          Sheffield               1854 - 1856
      64 Scotland Street
      (Edwin Moorwood & Alfred Priest)
PRIEST, ALFRED             Sheffield               1857 - 1862 ->
      64 Scotland Street  [1857]
      60 Pea Croft    [1862]
PRIEST & CO.               Sheffield            <- 1879 - 1925 ->
      Pea Croft Works, 60 Pea Croft  [1879 - 1893]
      Pea Croft Brass Works, 60 Solly Street  [1901-1905]
      188 Brook Street  [1911]
      56 Eyre Street    [1919 - 1925]

These firms were also listed as brass founders throughout their tenure,
and the manufacture of saw screws and german silver was mentioned from
the start.

As to the "Warranted Superior"/coat-of-arms medallion being registered
as a trade mark, the earliest indication I've found of that is in 1879,
in association with the William Henry Smith firm. These are links to
the trade mark listing and an advertisement in the 1879 directory:

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith.jpg

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith2.jpg

At some point between 1879 and 1901, Priest and Co. seems to have
purchased rights to the trade mark, as Ray has already indicated.
Their 1901 trade mark listing can be found at this link:

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/Priest.jpg

So, it would appear that all such medallions, for quite some time,
would have been manufactured by one of these firms. At this point, I
don't know how early the W. H. Smith succession of firms registered
it as a trade mark, but they had been making saw screws for over 40
years by 1879, and may have registered it some years earlier.

Hope this has been of some interest.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181907 "Dana Farmer& Cindy Miller" <cynthia.miller22@v...> 2008‑08‑05 RE: Old saw with blank medallion
If I'm understanding this correctly? I see a few possibilities regarding
medallions. If someone would let me know what is the real deal behind the
warranted superior saws

1)
A larger saw maker was making a batch of saws for a special order, say a
hardware store. They would stick warranted superior medallions into the
saws?  

2)
these nuts were purchased by small manufacturers who didn't have there own
medallions.

3)
 A larger operation would put the medallions onto saws that were not top
quality, but not bad enough to be recycled.

Thanks
Dana

--------------------------------


>	Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one 
>company (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and 
>made all the sawnuts so marked?
>

Thought I'd chime in here, as I had provided some relevant information
on this topic a little over a year ago (message # 169321 in the
archives). I now have a little additional information, and thought
I'd post the amended information as well as provide links to a couple of
images which may shed some light on the subject.

Just so we're clear, I believe Ray is referring to the British "Warranted
Superior" saw medallions which have the British Royal Coat of Arms in the
center. And, yes it was the registered trade mark of, not one, but two
different firms in succession.

More on that in a moment, but I first wanted to outline the two over-
lapping successions of firms which are related to this trade mark.

The first succession goes something like this, as far as I've been able
to reconstruct at present:



E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
Database version: 5.10410e
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181892 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑05 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Hi Steve,

Yes, "Warranted Superior" was a Priest & Co Trademark.

Sorry I can't give a more detailed answer, I am out on site
at present.

Regards
Ray

On 8/4/2008, "Steve Reynolds"  wrote:

>
>On Aug 3, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Ray Gardiner wrote:
>
>> Medallion Trivia
>> I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co.  The
>> makers of
>> the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when
>> they
>> didn't want to use their own medallion.  Priest & Co, registered the
>> design
>> as a trademark.  Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade
>> marks only
>> apply to the medallion not the saw?
>
>=09Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one company
>(Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all
>the sawnuts so marked?
>
>Regards,
>Steve
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

181925 Bill Kasper <dragonlist@u...> 2008‑08‑05 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
i have always liked the idea that someone, somewhere, designed the  
various "warrented superior" dies, and did nothing but make sawnuts  
all day long for the various manufacturers...and somehow don (whose  
scholarly research absolutely floors me, THANK YOU DON, as always) is  
going to find reference to it in an original shopfront and a later  
"&sons" shopfront, and then show the buyout by millers falls, or  
summat, when the "&sons" wear out their triphammers.

kinda reverse of your idea, and oddly-enough twisted for my taste.

bill
felton, ca

On Aug 5, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Steve Reynolds wrote:

>  I have always thought that Disston, Atkins, and Simonds made their  
> own Warranted Superior nuts and supplied other smaller firms.

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181924 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2008‑08‑05 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Don McConnell wrote:

> Steve Reynolds wrote:
>
>> 	Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one company 
>> (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all 
>> the sawnuts so marked?
>>
>
> [snip]
>
> As to the "Warranted Superior"/coat-of-arms medallion being registered
> as a trade mark, the earliest indication I've found of that is in 1879,
> in association with the William Henry Smith firm. These are links to
> the trade mark listing and an advertisement in the 1879 directory:
>
> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith.jpg
>
> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith2.jpg
>
> At some point between 1879 and 1901, Priest and Co. seems to have
> purchased rights to the trade mark, as Ray has already indicated.
> Their 1901 trade mark listing can be found at this link:
>
> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/Priest.jpg
>
> So, it would appear that all such medallions, for quite some time,
> would have been manufactured by one of these firms. At this point, I
> don't know how early the W. H. Smith succession of firms registered
> it as a trade mark, but they had been making saw screws for over 40
> years by 1879, and may have registered it some years earlier.

	Thanks, Don, for your usual level of scholarly research.  I'm assuming 
that the trademark you discuss would be effective for Great Britain and 
whatever Commonwealth that was obeying British trademark laws at the 
time?  I'm further assuming the Warranted Superior sawnuts we usually 
see here in the US were made by whoever wanted to.   I have always 
thought that Disston, Atkins, and Simonds made their own Warranted 
Superior nuts and supplied other smaller firms.

Regards,
Steve

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181928 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑06 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Hi Don, Steve et al

Nicely detailed research Don,  I think it points to some interesting
possibilities.

Wiktor, in an earlier post asked if anyone had additional information about
Priest & Co.  Following that line a bit further, if the Priest & Co archives
were to be located then,  it should be possible to find out who they made
medallions for, what patterns, how many, when. And of course who was
buying the generic "warranted superior" medallions

The likely place to first look would be the Sheffied Archives, has any
research already been done along these lines?

As to Steve's question of  other makers of "warranted superior"
medallions.  I imagine there were others.  Perhaps that's why
Priest & Co. took the trouble to register the trademark.

For a long period, the US saw makers imported steel from the UK
(apart from those with their own steel making facilities)

So, I would not be surprised if some US makers were importing Medallions
from Britain as well as steel for blades.

Regards
Ray

On 8/5/2008, "Steve Reynolds"  wrote:

>
>On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Don McConnell wrote:
>
>> Steve Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>> =09Ray, I don't think I'm following.  Are you saying that one company
>>> (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all
>>> the sawnuts so marked?
>>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> As to the "Warranted Superior"/coat-of-arms medallion being registered
>> as a trade mark, the earliest indication I've found of that is in 1879,
>> in association with the William Henry Smith firm. These are links to
>> the trade mark listing and an advertisement in the 1879 directory:
>>
>> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith.jpg
>>
>> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith2.jpg
>>
>> At some point between 1879 and 1901, Priest and Co. seems to have
>> purchased rights to the trade mark, as Ray has already indicated.
>> Their 1901 trade mark listing can be found at this link:
>>
>> http://www.planemaker.com/photos/Priest.jpg
>>
>> So, it would appear that all such medallions, for quite some time,
>> would have been manufactured by one of these firms. At this point, I
>> don't know how early the W. H. Smith succession of firms registered
>> it as a trade mark, but they had been making saw screws for over 40
>> years by 1879, and may have registered it some years earlier.
>
>
>=09Thanks, Don, for your usual level of scholarly research.  I'm assuming
>that the trademark you discuss would be effective for Great Britain and
>whatever Commonwealth that was obeying British trademark laws at the
>time?  I'm further assuming the Warranted Superior sawnuts we usually
>see here in the US were made by whoever wanted to.   I have always
>thought that Disston, Atkins, and Simonds made their own Warranted
>Superior nuts and supplied other smaller firms.
>
>Regards,
>Steve
>
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181929 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑06 Re: Old saw with blank medallion
Hi James,

Having been diverted by medallions, I forgot to mention the saw.

Another possibility for your saw,

George Bishop, was a Sheffield wool shear maker, Listed in 1791
universal,

Peter Bishop, his son is listed as a Edge tool and sawmaker in the same
directory.

Peter was apprenticed in 1783 and his father George is listed as a
shearsmith so it is likely the same. (assuming it's the same Peter of
course) he was apprenticed to William Wortley a scissorsmith.

1791 Bishop Weldon and Co are listed as :- Factors and Manufacturers of
steel saws and edge tools

in Holdens 1805-7 Bishop, Potts, Carr & Co. Merchants Arundel Street.

So I suspect that Bishop, Weldon & Carr are resellers.

I would put Peter Bishop down as a possibility for the maker of your
saw. and marked with his father's name G BISHOP (possibly sold by the
merchant Bishop, Weldon & Carr).

There are also a number of Charles Bishops and George Bishops listed as
cutlers, I imagine some those could be possibilities as well. I chose to
investigate Peter, mainly because he identifies himself as a sawmaker.

Regards Ray

On 8/4/2008, "jamesbrown"  wrote:

>    Thanks to all who responded, both online and off. The general
>    consensus is:
>             1. The saw is most likely English, based on the London
>                Style handle.
>             2. Pre-1850 time period, perhaps slightly earlier.
>             3. Blank medallions are seen on early British saws.
>             4. Sheffield makers Weldon & Carr Bishop are listed as
>                working in the late 1700s to early 1800s. Perhaps C.
>                Bishop is Carr Bishop. In any case, I'm glad I bought
>                this saw instead of the recent-make Stanley he had for
>                $3.00. James in Keokuk
>
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>
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