OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
181955 | Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Loose chisel fix |
Galooterati: A few weeks ago I posted about a Hibbard, Spencer and Bartlett 1-1/2" bevel-edged socket chisel I found. I filed and ground away mushrooming of the socket and made a handle out of narra. The socket weld is a bit sprung so I didn't want to strain it by pounding on it, and the chisel is fairly long and light; so I made a push-only handle for paring. http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Itemid=2&pl- ace=displayimage&album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=20&uid Trouble is, the handle kept falling out. The inside of the socket is pretty irregular, the edge of the weld was left square and proud on the inside. I spent literally a couple of weeks on and off working at the fit of the socket with carbon paper and scraping. Sometimes I got a fairly firm fit, but it was a bit crooked. By the time I had it straight it was loose again. It was firm enough in use, no wobble in pushing on it, but if I tried to pick it up by just the handle or just the blade it would come apart. It came apart in sharpening. Irritating, though the chisel was usable. I came to the conclusion that the narra was too hard a wood for the socket. I figure that most woods, even pretty hard ones, will compress one or two thous when the handle is rapped on the bench, and this brings the wood into full 100% contact with the metal. The narra is so hard that it has no compression at all, so even if I scrape it to 50% or 60% contact, there is not enough contact for the taper to lock. Getting full contact by scraping just wasn't possible because the socket was so irregular. That's my hypothesis, anyway. The brutal fact is: the handle kept falling out. I toyed with the idea that I was being punished for insensitivity in my thoughts. See, a couple of months ago someone wrote to the Fine Woodworking questions column about how his socket chisel blades kept falling off the handles, and would it be all right to epoxy them in? Got an answer back that it would be all right. "Yes." I sneered to myself, "if you want to crap up a lot of nice tools instead of learning to fit the handles properly. I've never had any problem." Teachers, for instance people who answer in question columns, should teach better methods of doing things, not encourage quick-fix shortcuts that will make proper repair harder. So I thought in my orgeuil. And then my new handle started falling out. Ye who would sneer at loose chisels, I now thought, will be punished with loose chisels. I thought of maybe gluing shavings of a softer wood onto the handle and fitting those to the socket, to provide the bit of "give" that was lacking. Thought again: it seemed way too complicated. Last night I was reading for the umpteenth time about leather washers between the handle and bolster of tang chisels, and something clicked. I went, cut a piece of thin leather to exactly cover the end of the handle with no gaps and no overlaps. Probably .7 mm. French chagrin, a pin- grained goatskin, if you want to know. Wrapped the leather around the handle, pushed the socket on, rapped the butt of the handle once on the bench. Firm fit! Full contact due to the give of the leather! Feels great! Leather was a bit too thick if anything; in fact, I think even a single layer of thick, soft paper might work. Useful trick to know. Now that I've posted about it, it will probably fall right apart the next time I pick it up. But I feel great today. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181957 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
At the risk of seeming contrary, I fail to see why it is a problem to use epoxy to hold a handle in an intractable socket. I do understand the issue of "purity," but I personally find that practicality trumps purity. I often use epoxy to hold handles in buggered sockets. If ever I need to replace the handle, I simply heat the socket with a propane torch, and after a short while the handle simply simply falls out. Then I replace it. But this is a very rare occurrence. I never have the problem of handles falling out on their own. If I can't make it fit properly, I just mix up a little epoxy. On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote: > The brutal fact is: the handle kept falling out. > > I toyed with the idea that I was being punished for insensitivity in > my thoughts. See, a couple of months ago someone wrote to the Fine > Woodworking questions column about how his socket chisel blades kept > falling off the handles, and would it be all right to epoxy them in? > Got an answer back that it would be all right. "Yes." I sneered to > myself, "if you want to crap up a lot of nice tools instead of > learning to fit the handles properly. I've never had any problem." > Teachers, for instance people who answer in question columns, should > teach better methods of doing things, not encourage quick-fix > shortcuts that will make proper repair harder. So I thought in my > orgeuil. And then my new handle started falling out. Ye who would > sneer at loose chisels, I now thought, will be punished with loose > chisels. I thought of maybe gluing shavings of a softer wood onto > the handle and fitting those to the socket, to provide the bit of > "give" that was lacking. Thought > again: it seemed way too complicated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181958 | Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
Galooterati: Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have against epoxy. Part of my bias against epoxy is, I admit, professional prejudice. I know that it can be reversed with heat, but for paper and leather it is effectively irreversible. This means I don' likeit. I've used it (not, I hasten to add, on paper or leather). No doubt I will again. But, even at best, its a nasty feeling, nasty looking, hard-to-reverse synthetic. Even for wood or metal I don't like it. This is a bit more objective. It responds differently to expansion and contraction than wood or metal, especially than wood. This means it will constrain the wood to expand and contract unnaturally, and that means trouble. Probably means the wood will break prematurely. Its not likely to be a problem on a chisel socket, but I think a lot of the time people choose it as "stronger" when the joined object will in fact be weaker due to differential expansion. In the case of chisels, my basic objection is really a matter of elegance. There has to be a better, cleaner, more easily reversible way than resorting to glopped on gunk. Its like any joint: you can fill it up with wood putty, but thats not elegant. Cut it right to start with. I figure that with a well-made chisel the handle ought to lock in place firmly without gunking things up; and if its not a well-made chisel, why am I messing with it? (Well, I do, all the time, but you get the principle). Before jumping to the conclusion that the manufacturer botched the taper of the socket, I first want to make sure that the problem isn't my workmanship or knowledge. Socket chisels were prime goods, well-made or else the maker folded. I've bought bad, soft chisels, but they were always tang chisels, not socket chisels. I figured: I must be doing something wrong. Bingo: I used the wrong wood. I figured: there has to be a simpler, less messy, more reversable fix. A more elegant fix. Well, there was. Epoxy? I sneer. Take that, running- dog petrochemical capitalist multinational megalithic chemical companies strangling the freedom and initiative of the small independant craftsman!!!... I do beg your pardon, really. Got carried away. Any moment there I might have started on about "croft-boiled hide glue" and "proud yeomen..." Tom Conroy Under sedation in San Francisco. End of the week, nearly. Just as well. --- On Thu, 8/7/08, James Thompson |
|||
181959 | Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
"I do beg your pardon, really. Got carried away. Any moment there I might have started on about "croft-boiled hide glue" and "proud yeomen..." " And "unsporting." I forgot about "unsporting." Take that, you fox- shooting fish-guddling dog-feeding steroid-swilling epoxy-glopping... [advisory: Mr. Conroy has been recaptured and we believe he is now adequately restrained. Thank you for your patience.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181960 | Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote: Galooterati: Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have against epoxy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe it was Jeff who remarked, some time back, about the efficacy of brown paper for shimming socket chisel handles. In this application epoxy is just high tech brown paper. Spike Cornelius PDX Crazy for Shavings ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181956 | "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> | 2008‑08‑07 | RE: Loose chisel fix |
-----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Thomas Conroy Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:41 PM To: oldtools@r... Subject: [OldTools] Loose chisel fix > Now that I've posted about it, it will probably fall right apart the next time I pick it up. Ha! That sounds exactly like something I'd say... Neat trick. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181961 | James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> | 2008‑08‑07 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
Something was lost in translation. I said I use epoxy on "buggered" sockets, not those that can easily be fixed with a paper shim. Those are not usually going to be fixed with paper or other filler. I stand by what I said. On Aug 7, 2008, at 4:35 PM, Spike Cornelius wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote: > > Galooterati: > > Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have > against epoxy. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I believe it was Jeff who remarked, some time back, about the > efficacy of brown paper for shimming socket chisel handles. In this > application epoxy is just high tech brown paper. > > > > > Spike Cornelius > PDX > Crazy for Shavings > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181966 | "Jeff Gorman" <amgron@c...> | 2008‑08‑08 | RE: Loose chisel fix |
: -----Original Message----- : From: oldtools-bounces@r... : [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...]On Behalf Of Thomas : Conroy : Sent: 07 August 2008 21:41 : To: oldtools@r... : Subject: [OldTools] Loose chisel fix : : Thomas Conroy posted: : A few weeks ago I posted about a Hibbard, Spencer and Bartlett : 1-1/2" bevel-edged socket chisel I found. I filed and ground : away mushrooming of the socket and made a handle out of narra. : The socket weld is a bit sprung so I didn't want to strain it by : pounding on it, and the chisel is fairly long and light; so I : made a push-only handle for paring. Now this took me back some 63 years to the time when invincible men tried to teach me some applied maths, so I tried to construct a vector diagram to understand why two fairly gentle tapers when pressed together can hold very strongly. I had morse taper lathe centres, drill chuck arbors and suchlike in mind. I seems to me that since Thomas's socket weld is 'a bit sprung' whatever happens inside these tapers has very ltttle chance of producing the frictional forces that usually holds them in place because of the 'give' in the system. Some of us know too well what happens if we try to mate two dirty or damaged tapers. Hence, desperate situations demand desperate remedies of which the leather seems the most sympathetic. I too would have settled for epoxy. Jeff, relishing the sound of the word 'orgeuil'. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10440e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181974 | Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> | 2008‑08‑08 | RE: Loose chisel fix |
Galooterati: A moment of lucidity, a little window, seems to have opened... Thanks to all who responded, on and off list. I hadn't ruled out epoxy, but I didn't want to rush to it before I was sure it was necessary and would work. Even accepting it in general (all right, between ourselves and with no reporters around, its a good option in many cases) for this particular chisel its a bit problematic. Over the last day I've worked a bit more of my semi-subconscous thoughts out into the open. When the previous owner bashed on the socket, the weld separated for about half an inch down from the reground open end. If I remember correctly, it gaped over three-sixteenths of an inch at one spot. I managed to squeeze and pound the gaping area almost shut (cold, since I don't have a forging setup) but that opened the weld further down to almost an inch from the end, not much open but you can see the crack. I put cyanoacryllate into the crack hoping to hold it at least in the very close and clean newly-separated area, but I don't know that it did any good (don't know that it didn't, either). I have about 2" depth to the socket, and it looks to me like the bottom inch is still firmly welded, which would be enough to hold the handle; but I'm not quite sure. So I've been going very slowly on altering things. If the weld has separated invisibly all the way to the bottom, I don't think any epoxy is going to hold well enough to make the chisel firm. Too much leverage acting to pry the former weld further open; I'm sure the socket is dirty enough that adhesives won't stick to it, so epoxy would work as a gap-filler, and the prying effect on the open weld would constantly change the shape and size of the gaps to be filled. I'm not yet sure what I'll do if the weld has separated all the way-- maybe serve steel wire around the outside of the socket up to the top, and then silver-solder it in place. Or wrap the outside with wet rawhide, which is supposed to be able to fix anything from a broken Conestoga wagon axle to a broken quill pen. Or maybe duct tape. And besides, epoxy is glob glob bubble bubble screech......... Tom Conroy in restraint again ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181976 | Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> | 2008‑08‑08 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
Have you considered getting it welded back together? Shouldn't be to tough to do................... On Aug 8, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote: Galooterati: A moment of lucidity, a little window, seems to have opened... Thanks to all who responded, on and off list. I hadn't ruled out epoxy, but I didn't want to rush to it before I was sure it was necessary and would work. Even accepting it in general (all right, between ourselves and with no reporters around, its a good option in many cases) for this particular chisel its a bit problematic. Over the last day I've worked a bit more of my semi-subconscous thoughts out into the open. When the previous owner bashed on the socket, the weld separated for about half an inch down from the reground open end. If I remember correctly, it gaped over three-sixteenths of an inch at one spot. I managed to squeeze and pound the gaping area almost shut (cold, since I don't have a forging setup) but that opened the weld further down to almost an inch from the end, not much open but you can see the crack. I put cyanoacryllate into the crack hoping to hold it at least in the very close and clean newly-separated area, but I don't know that it did any good (don't know that it didn't, either). I have about 2" depth to the socket, and it looks to me like the bottom inch is still firmly welded, which would be enough to hold the handle; but I'm not quite sure. So I've been going very slowly on altering things. If the weld has separated invisibly all the way to the bottom, I don't think any epoxy is going to hold well enough to make the chisel firm. Too much leverage acting to pry the former weld further open; I'm sure the socket is dirty enough that adhesives won't stick to it, so epoxy would work as a gap-filler, and the prying effect on the open weld would constantly change the shape and size of the gaps to be filled. I'm not yet sure what I'll do if the weld has separated all the way-- maybe serve steel wire around the outside of the socket up to the top, and then silver-solder it in place. Or wrap the outside with wet rawhide, which is supposed to be able to fix anything from a broken Conestoga wagon axle to a broken quill pen. Or maybe duct tape. And besides, epoxy is glob glob bubble bubble screech......... Tom Conroy in restraint again ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
181978 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2008‑08‑08 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
I'm afraid it's more the bashing and buckling that is causing the trouble. A crack could actually act like a spring and grip a handle tighter. This is what the Chinese do. They almost never weld up a socket (unless they are exporting it to us) and they'll grip a handle like a pit bull on a pork chop! I often wish socket chisel sockets were more universal in size, and they had made reamers to clean them up inside. A few sizes of interchangeable sockets between brands, and reamers for them?? Wouldn't that save us --all-- a lot of headaches?? yours, Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
182010 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2008‑08‑11 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
scott grandstaff wrote: > I'm afraid it's more the bashing and buckling that is causing the trouble. > A crack could actually act like a spring and grip a handle tighter. > > This is what the Chinese do. They almost never weld up a socket (unless > they are exporting it to us) > and they'll grip a handle like a pit bull on a pork chop! Now *THAT'S* interesting. Perhaps Barr could take note? BugBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
182084 | Tom Price <tomprice03@g...> | 2008‑08‑15 | Re: Loose chisel fix |
Thomas Conroy wrote: > Galooterati: > > Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have > against epoxy. > > Part of my bias against epoxy is, I admit, professional prejudice. I > know that it can be reversed with heat, but for paper and leather it > is effectively irreversible. This means I don' likeit. I've used it > (not, I hasten to add, on paper or leather). No doubt I will again. > But, even at best, its a nasty feeling, nasty looking, > hard-to-reverse synthetic. > (snip of the rest) In situations such as you have described, I use a bit of polyurethane glue. No mixing and any 'foam-out' of the glue around the socket is easily scraped away. I make no apologies for this as I consider a chisel that won't stay in the socket to be a safety hazard. Having a chisel hit your toe is beyond inconvenient: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/uh_oh.html On the home front, waiting for the Mid-Atlantic Galootpalooza on Aug. 24. As the days shorten I am increasingly drawn towards the shop... **************************** Tom Price (tomprice03@g...) Got A Monkey On My Back That Taps Me On The Head Whenever It Sees A Disston The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
182085 | "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> | 2008‑08‑15 | RE: Loose chisel fix |
Who was that masked man? Did anybody get the plate number of that hit-n-run? - anon -----Original Message----- Tom Price wrote: In situations such as you have described, I use a bit of polyurethane glue. No mixing and any 'foam-out' of the glue around the socket is easily scraped away. [SNIP] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |