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181955 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2008‑08‑07 Loose chisel fix
Galooterati:

A few weeks ago I posted about a Hibbard, Spencer and Bartlett 1-1/2"
bevel-edged socket chisel I found. I filed and ground away mushrooming
of the socket and made a handle out of narra. The socket weld is a bit
sprung so I didn't want to strain it by pounding on it, and the chisel
is fairly long and light; so I made a push-only handle for paring.

http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Itemid=2&pl-
ace=displayimage&album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=20&uid Trouble is, the handle
kept falling out. The inside of the socket is pretty irregular, the edge
of the weld was left square and proud on the inside. I spent literally a
couple of weeks on and off working at the fit of the socket with carbon
paper and scraping. Sometimes I got a fairly firm fit, but it was a bit
crooked. By the time I had it straight it was loose again. It was firm
enough in use, no wobble in pushing on it, but if I tried to pick it up
by just the handle or just the blade it would come apart. It came apart
in sharpening. Irritating, though the chisel was usable.

I came to the conclusion that the narra was too hard a wood for the
socket. I figure that most woods, even pretty hard ones, will compress
one or two thous when the handle is rapped on the bench, and this brings
the wood into full 100% contact with the metal. The narra is so hard
that it has no compression at all, so even if I scrape it to 50% or 60%
contact, there is not enough contact for the taper to lock. Getting full
contact by scraping just wasn't possible because the socket was so
irregular. That's my hypothesis, anyway. The brutal fact is: the handle
kept falling out.

I toyed with the idea that I was being punished for insensitivity in my
thoughts. See, a couple of months ago someone wrote to the Fine
Woodworking questions column about how his socket chisel blades kept
falling off the handles, and would it be all right to epoxy them in? Got
an answer back that it would be all right. "Yes." I sneered to myself,
"if you want to crap up a lot of nice tools instead of learning to fit
the handles properly. I've never had any problem." Teachers, for
instance people who answer in question columns, should teach better
methods of doing things, not encourage quick-fix shortcuts that will
make proper repair harder. So I thought in my orgeuil. And then my new
handle started falling out. Ye who would sneer at loose chisels, I now
thought, will be punished with loose chisels. I thought of maybe gluing
shavings of a softer wood onto the handle and fitting those to the
socket, to provide the bit of "give" that was lacking. Thought again: it
seemed way too complicated.

Last night I was reading for the umpteenth time about leather washers
between the handle and bolster of tang chisels, and something clicked. I
went, cut a piece of thin leather to exactly cover the end of the handle
with no gaps and no overlaps. Probably .7 mm. French chagrin, a pin-
grained goatskin, if you want to know. Wrapped the leather around the
handle, pushed the socket on, rapped the butt of the handle once on the
bench. Firm fit! Full contact due to the give of the leather! Feels
great! Leather was a bit too thick if anything; in fact, I think even a
single layer of thick, soft paper might work. Useful trick to know.

Now that I've posted about it, it will probably fall right apart the
next time I pick it up. But I feel great today.

Tom Conroy Berkeley


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181957 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2008‑08‑07 Re: Loose chisel fix
At the risk of seeming contrary, I fail to see why it is a problem to  
use epoxy to hold a handle in an intractable socket. I do understand  
the issue of "purity," but I personally find that practicality trumps  
purity.

I often use epoxy to hold handles in buggered sockets. If ever I need  
to replace the handle, I simply heat the socket with a propane torch,  
and after a short while the handle simply simply falls out. Then I  
replace it. But this is a very rare occurrence.

I never have the problem of handles falling out on their own. If I  
can't make it fit properly, I just mix up a little epoxy.

On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote:

> The brutal fact is: the handle kept falling out.
>
> I toyed with the idea that I was being punished for insensitivity in  
> my thoughts. See, a couple of months ago someone wrote to the Fine  
> Woodworking questions column about how his socket chisel blades kept  
> falling off the handles, and would it be all right to epoxy them in?  
> Got an answer back that it would be all right. "Yes." I sneered to  
> myself, "if you want to crap up a lot of nice tools instead of  
> learning to fit the handles properly. I've never had any problem."  
> Teachers, for instance people who answer in question columns, should  
> teach better methods of doing things, not encourage quick-fix  
> shortcuts that will make proper repair harder. So I thought in my  
> orgeuil. And then my new handle started falling out. Ye who would  
> sneer at loose chisels, I now thought, will be punished with loose  
> chisels. I thought of maybe gluing shavings of a softer wood onto  
> the handle and fitting those to the socket, to provide the bit of  
> "give" that was lacking. Thought
> again: it seemed way too complicated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181958 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2008‑08‑07 Re: Loose chisel fix
Galooterati:

Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have
against epoxy.

Part of my bias against epoxy is, I admit, professional prejudice. I
know that it can be reversed with heat, but for paper and leather it is
effectively irreversible. This means I don' likeit. I've used it (not, I
hasten to add, on paper or leather). No doubt I will again. But, even at
best, its a nasty feeling, nasty looking, hard-to-reverse synthetic.

Even for wood or metal I don't like it. This is a bit more objective. It
responds differently to expansion and contraction than wood or metal,
especially than wood. This means it will constrain the wood to expand
and contract unnaturally, and that means trouble. Probably means the
wood will break prematurely. Its not likely to be a problem on a chisel
socket, but I think a lot of the time people choose it as "stronger"
when the joined object will in fact be weaker due to differential
expansion.

In the case of chisels, my basic objection is really a matter of
elegance. There has to be a better, cleaner, more easily reversible way
than resorting to glopped on gunk. Its like any joint: you can fill it
up with wood putty, but thats not elegant. Cut it right to start with. I
figure that with a well-made chisel the handle ought to lock in place
firmly without gunking things up; and if its not a well-made chisel, why
am I messing with it? (Well, I do, all the time, but you get the
principle). Before jumping to the conclusion that the manufacturer
botched the taper of the socket, I first want to make sure that the
problem isn't my workmanship or knowledge. Socket chisels were prime
goods, well-made or else the maker folded. I've bought bad, soft
chisels, but they were always tang chisels, not socket chisels.

I figured: I must be doing something wrong. Bingo: I used the wrong
wood. I figured: there has to be a simpler, less messy, more reversable
fix. A more elegant fix. Well, there was. Epoxy? I sneer. Take that, running-
dog petrochemical capitalist multinational megalithic chemical companies
strangling the freedom and initiative of the small independant
craftsman!!!...

I do beg your pardon, really. Got carried away. Any moment there I might
have started on about "croft-boiled hide glue" and "proud yeomen..."

Tom Conroy

Under sedation in San Francisco. End of the week, nearly. Just as well.

--- On Thu, 8/7/08, James Thompson  wrote:

> From: James Thompson  Subject: Re: [OldTools] Loose
> chisel fix To: booktoolcutter@y... Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008,
> 2:41 PM At the risk of seeming contrary, I fail to see why it is a
> problem to use epoxy to hold a handle in an intractable socket. I do
> understand the issue of "purity," but I personally find that
> practicality trumps purity.
>
> I often use epoxy to hold handles in buggered sockets. If ever I need
> to replace the handle, I simply heat the socket with a propane torch,
> and after a short while the handle simply simply falls out. Then I
> replace it. But this is a very rare occurrence.
>
> I never have the problem of handles falling out on their own. If I
> can't make it fit properly, I just mix up a little epoxy.
>
> On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>
> > The brutal fact is: the handle kept falling out.
> >
> > I toyed with the idea that I was being punished for
> insensitivity in
> > my thoughts. See, a couple of months ago someone wrote
> to the Fine
> > Woodworking questions column about how his socket
> chisel blades kept
> > falling off the handles, and would it be all right to
> epoxy them in?
> > Got an answer back that it would be all right.
> "Yes." I sneered to
> > myself, "if you want to crap up a lot of nice
> tools instead of
> > learning to fit the handles properly. I've never
> had any problem."
> > Teachers, for instance people who answer in question
> columns, should
> > teach better methods of doing things, not encourage
> quick-fix
> > shortcuts that will make proper repair harder. So I
> thought in my
> > orgeuil. And then my new handle started falling out.
> Ye who would
> > sneer at loose chisels, I now thought, will be
> punished with loose
> > chisels. I thought of maybe gluing shavings of a
> softer wood onto
> > the handle and fitting those to the socket, to provide
> the bit of
> > "give" that was lacking. Thought again: it seemed way too
> > complicated.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

181959 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2008‑08‑07 Re: Loose chisel fix
"I do beg your pardon, really. Got carried away. Any moment there I
might have started on about "croft-boiled hide glue" and "proud
yeomen..." "

And "unsporting." I forgot about "unsporting." Take that, you fox-
shooting fish-guddling dog-feeding steroid-swilling epoxy-glopping...

[advisory: Mr. Conroy has been recaptured and we believe he is now
adequately restrained. Thank you for your patience.]


------------------------------------------------------------------------

181960 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2008‑08‑07 Re: Loose chisel fix
On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote:

Galooterati:

Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have  
against epoxy.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  I believe it was Jeff who remarked, some time back, about the  
efficacy of brown paper for shimming socket chisel handles. In this  
application epoxy is just high tech brown paper.

Spike Cornelius
PDX
           Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181956 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑07 RE: Loose chisel fix
-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Thomas Conroy
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:41 PM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: [OldTools] Loose chisel fix

> Now that I've posted about it, it will probably fall right apart the next
time I pick it up.

Ha!

That sounds exactly like something I'd say...

Neat trick.

- Bill T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181961 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2008‑08‑07 Re: Loose chisel fix
Something was lost in translation. I said I use epoxy on "buggered"  
sockets, not those that can easily be fixed with a paper shim. Those  
are not usually going to be fixed with paper or other filler.

I stand by what I said.

On Aug 7, 2008, at 4:35 PM, Spike Cornelius wrote:

>
> On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>
> Galooterati:
>
> Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have  
> against epoxy.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> I believe it was Jeff who remarked, some time back, about the  
> efficacy of brown paper for shimming socket chisel handles. In this  
> application epoxy is just high tech brown paper.
>
>
>
>
> Spike Cornelius
> PDX
>          Crazy for Shavings
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

181966 "Jeff Gorman" <amgron@c...> 2008‑08‑08 RE: Loose chisel fix
:  -----Original Message-----
:  From: oldtools-bounces@r...
:  [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...]On Behalf Of Thomas
:  Conroy
:  Sent: 07 August 2008 21:41
:  To: oldtools@r...
:  Subject: [OldTools] Loose chisel fix
:
:  Thomas Conroy posted:

:  A few weeks ago I posted about a Hibbard, Spencer and Bartlett
:  1-1/2" bevel-edged socket chisel I found. I filed and ground
:  away mushrooming of the socket and made a handle out of narra.
:  The socket weld is a bit sprung so I didn't want to strain it by
:  pounding on it, and the chisel is fairly long and light; so I
:  made a push-only handle for paring.

Now this took me back some 63 years to the time when invincible men tried to
teach me some applied maths, so I tried to construct a vector diagram to
understand why two fairly gentle tapers when pressed together can hold very
strongly. I had morse taper lathe centres, drill chuck arbors and suchlike
in mind.

I seems to me that since Thomas's socket weld is 'a bit sprung'  whatever
happens inside these tapers has very ltttle chance of producing the
frictional forces that usually holds them in place because of the 'give' in
the system. Some of us know too well what happens if we try to mate two
dirty or damaged tapers.

Hence, desperate situations demand desperate remedies of which the leather
seems the most sympathetic. I too would have settled for epoxy.

Jeff, relishing the sound of the word 'orgeuil'.
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
http://www.amgron.clara.net

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
Database version: 5.10440e
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

181974 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2008‑08‑08 RE: Loose chisel fix
Galooterati:

A moment of lucidity, a little window, seems to have opened...

Thanks to all who responded, on and off list. I hadn't ruled out epoxy,
but I didn't want to rush to it before I was sure it was necessary and
would work. Even accepting it in general (all right, between ourselves
and with no reporters around, its a good option in many cases) for this
particular chisel its a bit problematic. Over the last day I've worked a
bit more of my semi-subconscous thoughts out into the open.

When the previous owner bashed on the socket, the weld separated for
about half an inch down from the reground open end. If I remember
correctly, it gaped over three-sixteenths of an inch at one spot. I
managed to squeeze and pound the gaping area almost shut (cold, since I
don't have a forging setup) but that opened the weld further down to
almost an inch from the end, not much open but you can see the crack. I
put cyanoacryllate into the crack hoping to hold it at least in the very
close and clean newly-separated area, but I don't know that it did any
good (don't know that it didn't, either).

I have about 2" depth to the socket, and it looks to me like the bottom
inch is still firmly welded, which would be enough to hold the handle;
but I'm not quite sure. So I've been going very slowly on altering
things. If the weld has separated invisibly all the way to the bottom, I
don't think any epoxy is going to hold well enough to make the chisel
firm. Too much leverage acting to pry the former weld further open; I'm
sure the socket is dirty enough that adhesives won't stick to it, so
epoxy would work as a gap-filler, and the prying effect on the open weld
would constantly change the shape and size of the gaps to be filled.

I'm not yet sure what I'll do if the weld has separated all the way--
maybe serve steel wire around the outside of the socket up to the top,
and then silver-solder it in place. Or wrap the outside with wet
rawhide, which is supposed to be able to fix anything from a broken
Conestoga wagon axle to a broken quill pen. Or maybe duct tape.

And besides, epoxy is glob glob bubble bubble screech.........

Tom Conroy in restraint again


------------------------------------------------------------------------

181976 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2008‑08‑08 Re: Loose chisel fix
  Have you considered getting it welded back together? Shouldn't be  
to tough to do...................

On Aug 8, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Thomas Conroy wrote:

Galooterati:

A moment of lucidity, a little window, seems to have opened...

Thanks to all who responded, on and off list. I hadn't ruled out  
epoxy, but I didn't want to rush to it before I was sure it was  
necessary and would work. Even accepting it in general (all right,  
between ourselves and with no reporters around, its a good option in  
many cases) for this particular chisel its a bit problematic. Over  
the last day I've worked a bit more of my semi-subconscous thoughts  
out into the open.

When the previous owner bashed on the socket, the weld separated for  
about half an inch down from the reground open end. If I remember  
correctly, it gaped over three-sixteenths of an inch at one spot. I  
managed to squeeze and pound the gaping area almost shut (cold, since  
I don't have a forging setup) but that opened the weld further down  
to almost an inch from the end, not much open but you can see the  
crack. I put cyanoacryllate into the crack hoping to hold it at least  
in the very close and clean newly-separated area, but I don't know  
that it did any good (don't know that it didn't, either).

I have about 2" depth to the socket, and it looks to me like the  
bottom inch is still firmly welded, which would be enough to hold the  
handle; but I'm not quite sure. So I've been going very slowly on  
altering things. If the weld has separated invisibly all the way to  
the bottom, I don't think any epoxy is going to hold well enough to  
make the chisel firm. Too much leverage acting to pry the former weld  
further open; I'm sure the socket is dirty enough that adhesives  
won't stick to it, so epoxy would work as a gap-filler, and the  
prying effect on the open weld would constantly change the shape and  
size of the gaps to be filled.

I'm not yet sure what I'll do if the weld has separated all the  
way--  maybe serve steel wire around the outside of the socket up to  
the top, and then silver-solder it in place. Or wrap the outside with  
wet rawhide, which is supposed to be able to fix anything from a  
broken Conestoga wagon axle to a broken quill pen. Or maybe duct tape.

And besides, epoxy is glob glob bubble bubble screech.........

Tom Conroy
in restraint again

------------------------------------------------------------------------

181978 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2008‑08‑08 Re: Loose chisel fix
I'm afraid it's more the bashing and buckling that is causing the trouble.
 A crack could actually act like a spring and grip a handle tighter.
 
  This is what the Chinese do. They almost never weld up a socket 
(unless they are exporting it to us)
  and they'll grip a handle like a pit bull on a pork chop!

 I often wish socket chisel sockets were more universal in size, and 
they had made reamers to clean them up inside.

 A few sizes of interchangeable sockets between brands, and reamers for 
them??
    Wouldn't that save us --all-- a lot of headaches??
  yours, Scott

-- 
******************************* 
   Scott Grandstaff
   Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
   scottg@s...
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182010 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2008‑08‑11 Re: Loose chisel fix
scott grandstaff wrote:
> I'm afraid it's more the bashing and buckling that is causing the trouble.
> A crack could actually act like a spring and grip a handle tighter.
> 
>  This is what the Chinese do. They almost never weld up a socket (unless 
> they are exporting it to us)
>  and they'll grip a handle like a pit bull on a pork chop!

Now *THAT'S* interesting.

Perhaps Barr could take note?

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182084 Tom Price <tomprice03@g...> 2008‑08‑15 Re: Loose chisel fix
Thomas Conroy wrote:
> Galooterati:
> 
> Jim Thompson asked, on impeccable functional grounds, what I have
> against epoxy.
> 
> Part of my bias against epoxy is, I admit, professional prejudice. I
> know that it can be reversed with heat, but for paper and leather it
> is effectively irreversible. This means I don' likeit. I've used it
> (not, I hasten to add, on paper or leather). No doubt I will again.
> But, even at best, its a nasty feeling, nasty looking,
> hard-to-reverse synthetic.
> 
(snip of the rest)

In situations such as you have described, I use a bit of polyurethane
glue. No mixing and any 'foam-out' of the glue around the socket is
easily scraped away.

I make no apologies for this as I consider a chisel that won't stay in
the socket to be a safety hazard. Having a chisel hit your toe is beyond
inconvenient:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/uh_oh.html

On the home front, waiting for the Mid-Atlantic Galootpalooza on Aug.
24. As the days shorten I am increasingly drawn towards the shop...
****************************
Tom Price (tomprice03@g...)
Got A Monkey On My Back That Taps Me On The Head Whenever It Sees A
Disston
The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182085 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑15 RE: Loose chisel fix
Who was that masked man?  Did anybody get the plate number of that
hit-n-run?

- anon

-----Original Message-----

Tom Price wrote:

In situations such as you have described, I use a bit of polyurethane
glue. No mixing and any 'foam-out' of the glue around the socket is
easily scraped away.

[SNIP]

------------------------------------------------------------------------


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