To all, Greetings from the desert SW.Been lurking a good while and
thought I'd post a quck bio. Names Bruce Dissel and I live in the canyon
country of SE Utah.I fight forest fires for a living summers and this
gives me a lot of shop/tool hounding time otherwise.Enjoy making
hardwood furniture and accesories.Main influence style-wise and
plane-wise is Mr. Krenov.Made a plane kit from Ron Hock and starting to
make more from scratch.Current old tool interest is small levels, which
brings me to a question related to "Shiney does Pay"; Scored a Stratton
Bros 10" # 10 for $60 recently.The brass is pretty well tarnished,has
the ubiquitous bit of paint splatter but in really nice shape
otherwise.I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or
tools.Is there a way to clean up the brass a little bit without the
scrubbed look?Also I know alcohol is a solvent for dried latex paint but
worry about impacting the finish. Any suggestions welcome and sure enjoy
the discussion group. Bruce

Hello Bruce

You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine
polishing grade grit. You should be able to easily control how aggressive
it is because it is not at all very aggressive without considerable elbow
grease. But its grit is finer and shouldn't show the scrubbed look you're
worried about. BTW, I once polished a rosewood and brass handled
pocketknife on a buffing wheel and it looked so bright and awkward
afterward that I have never done it again since.

The other product that springs to mind is "Bar Keeper's Friend" which comes
in a gold looking container. It's a little bit like comet cleanser only
milder (but I would say more abrasive than the brasso). I know its safe for
small brass bar sinks.

Rubbing compound used on car paint finishes might be another option. I
would suspect most of it might even be milder than the brasso but it'd be
thicker instead. You might even have some around your place now. You'd be
surprised how many car waxes these days actually contain rubbing compound
within their formula. Taking off a microscopic layer of paint helps
brighten the finish.

But I'd do some tests on some old brass first before taking it to the
plane. I think horn players use brasso, too, IIRC. A lot of them don't like
their horns too bright.

Bruce said:
I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or tools.Is there a
way to clean up the brass a little bit without the scrubbed look?

One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound
Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a
something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it
looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item.

It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina off,
and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits.

Haven't tried it myself, but I did pick a tin up - it's only a couple
bucks and should last forever.

for what it's worth.

paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood

> You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine
> polishing grade grit. The other product that springs to mind is "Bar
> Keeper's Friend" which comes in a gold looking container. It's a
> little bit like comet cleanser onlymilder

Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white
(polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit).

Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then.

Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of
possible mis-information.

paul morin calgary, ab

> One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound
> Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a
> something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it
> looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item.
>
> It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina
> off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits.
>

Hi John & All,

As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to
John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive
cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound
is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220
sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is
indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes.

Best Wishes,
Bob

It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say.
Tips on cleaning
http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "PAUL MORIN" 
To: "oldtools" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay)

> Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white
(polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit).
>
> Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then.
>
> Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of
possible mis-information.
>
>
> paul morin
> calgary, ab
>
> > One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing
> > compound Turtle Wax sells.  They say to use an old soft cotton
> > cloth (or a something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work
> > it in until it looks 'burnished'.  Then you use it to carefully
> > work your item.
> >
> > It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the
> > patina off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits.
> >
>
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools

Sorry about that, thanks for the correction, Bob. Goes to show what happens
to knowledge when I don't have occasion to personally use it very often.

> [Original Message]
> From: 
> To: 
> Cc: 
> Date: 3/10/2004 9:31:55 AM
> Subject: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay)
>
> Hi John & All,
>
> As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to
> John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive
> cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound
> is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220
> sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is
> indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Bob

Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm
distinctly informed otherwise). I'm the first to admit I don't know
everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things.

Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly
clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the
archives of the old tool group. Most of the info has the archive number
listed with it.

I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use
red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not
the white).

I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group
that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice outdoes the
best 'theory' almost everytime.

I don't believe everything I read. And I never use anything I haven't
tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about.

Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point. At least I know
someone has visited the site though ;)

paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard J. Hucker" 
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools]
Bio-(and Shiney does pay)

>
> It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. Tips on
> cleaning
> http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html
>
>
>

Paul:

The information you provide on your web site is sensible, constructive and
above all, practical. My comments were tongue and cheek.  I did not make my
point clear. There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to
use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue other than
hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we remove the sweat and
grime that it's original owner put there we would lose the value of the
tool. Of course that also assumes that the orginal owner never wiped down
his tools or ever made an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil
the patina. Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots
take this a bit too far.

We all clean our tools and even polish them. I have some old tools that
belonged to my Dad and Granddad. The first thing I did was remove the old
sweat. I didn't think they would mind. MJD has done pretty well it seems and
we never see dirty, grimy, sweat laden tools for sale on his site. Are we so
naive to think that all tools must remain in the "just found" condition? We
live in a real 21st Century time and just happen to like old tools. We are
not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. We all
have seen the nice clean tools of the same Galoots that preach to the rest
of us that we should not ruin our tools by cleaning. If we clean our user
tools to whatever extent and it pleases us. . . great. But, if we clean the
tools to hornswaggle a potential buyer. That's another matter. I once bought
a No. 6 on eBay that was as shiny as can be. When it hit my front door it
reeked of WD40 and the wife didn't want it in the house until I gave it a
good bath in soap and water. The packing material had to be discarded
immediately it smelled so bad. I was hornswaggled by "shiny".

The helpful information on your web site is right on. Keep up the good work.
I have saved your site in my Favorites and refer to it often.  Another
helful hint. For cleaning Brass, try Mothers Mag cream that can be found at
most Auto Parts stores. Be careful with it. . . it will remove the tarnish.
(grin)

Regards,
Col. Dick Hucker (Huck)
Dyer, Indiana

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Morin" 
To: "Richard J. Hucker" 
Cc: "oldtools" 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay)

> Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm
distinctly informed otherwise).  I'm the first to admit I don't know
everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things.
>
> Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly
clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the
archives of the old tool group.  Most of the info has the archive number
listed with it.
>
> I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red
rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not the
white).
>
> I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that
says to use the white, not the red.  Practical advice outdoes the best
'theory' almost everytime.
>
> I don't believe everything I read.  And I never use anything I haven't
tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about.
>
> Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point.  At least I know
someone has visited the site though ;)
>
> paul morin
> calgary, ab
> www.cranialstorage.com/wood
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard J. Hucker" 
> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm
> Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay)
>
> >
> > It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say.
> > Tips on cleaning
> > http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html
> >
> >
> >

Paul and Fellow Tool Aficionados,

I have used both the red and the white rubbing compounds. The red is coarser
than the white. I find each can be a valuable tool when used with the
appropriate care, in the right circumstance. I always take care to remove
any abrasive residue after use.

Al Perreault
Wachusett Galoot
Westminster, Massachusetts

> I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red
rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, >and not the
white).
>
> I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that
says to use the white, not the red.  Practical advice >outdoes the best
'theory' almost everytime.
>
>
> paul morin
> calgary, ab

Hi Paul & All,

Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe have
a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made in the
context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be milder and
less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of any standard
red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of the white
polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are some types of old
tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound might work quite well
and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for such - just don't start
out thinking you're using something milder than Brasso.

I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using
jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso?

Best Wishes,
Bob

Richard writes :

> There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to
> use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue 
> other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we 
> remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there 
> we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes 
> that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made 
> an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. 
> Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots
> take this a bit too far.

There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that 
warps what people say, or how some hear it.  I don't believe
I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or 
"don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or 
get off the list".

One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of 
doing things.  And doing them in a traditional environment.  
That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that
goal is only inherent.  Two hundred years ago you could not
walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned
objects.  And they're just as out of place in the environment 
of this list.

That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there 
are different places to go to enjoy different environments.  
I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the 
mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows.
Oldtools isn't one of them.  There are other groups in which
polyurethane is seen as a good thing.  Again, oldtools isn't
one of them.

I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone
new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what 
kind of place this is.  Reading the archives may be a way,
but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that.  Unfortunately,
I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all 
that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for 
a new person to get an idea of the place.

Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence
is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying
real items like furniture or woodwork.  In my mind the feeling
one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the 
feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools.

When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools,
either being used in their original function to produce fine items
of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake.  One
should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living 
a part of their lives together in this environment.  As one of 
the older members of this list put it, it's all a game.  And we're 
all having fun playing the game together.

Paul Pedersen     
Montreal (Quebec)

Perhaps so BugBear. But that doesn't always hold true. Those that reenact
the Civil War in the U.S. show up with some pretty clean and well pressed
period clothing. And their weapons are clean. They wouldn't dare fire a
black powder weapon that is encrusted with powder residue. I have some black
powder handguns, rifles, and a field cannon that are well cared for . . . no
patina is wanted.

Huck

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bugbear" 
To: "oldtools" 
Cc: "oldtools" 
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay)

> Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools)
> > We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are
not.
>
> Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new.
> A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-)
>
>      BugBear
>
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools

>> Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new.
>> A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-)
>>

Would a cabinetmaker not possibly have his grandfather's tools, and 
therefore be using a 1780's tool in a an 1820's re-enactment?

Ed Minch

I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up 
sweetheart blade in it.  This means that the tools was 50 years old 
when it got it last blade, and then that was used up!

For me, there is pleasure in rescuing the babies that were throw out
with the bathwater of mass production.  

I shave with a straight razor, write with a fountain pen, use a vacuum
tube amplifier in my stereo, and smooth the surface of boards with a
hand plane, because I refuse to be in such a hurry that I squeeze the
aesthetic value out of everything to gain a few minutes of time - time
which will then just be filled with more rushing and more mass-produced,
soulless junk.  

In the drive to achieve instant gratification, we have spent a century
trying to shorten the learning curve and eliminate the chance of error
in every human activity.  There is much good in this, but something has
been almost lost in the process.  The Galoots are the guardians of that
which was almost lost: the challenge of trying to master a skill that
can never be fully mastered, the creative freedom that comes from
intimacy with a medium as complex as wood, the sense of self-sufficiency
that comes from knowing that you can make a useful object  with tools so
simple that you can make the tools too, and the peaceful meditation of
trying to bring eye, hand and wood together into harmony through finess
and understanding rather than brute force.

That is some of what I see on this list.

                  

>>> Paul Pedersen  03/11/2004 8:10:26 PM >>>

Richard writes :

> There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to
> use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue 
> other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we 
> remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there 
> we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes 
> that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made 
> an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. 
> Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots
> take this a bit too far.

There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that 
warps what people say, or how some hear it.  I don't believe
I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or 
"don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or 
get off the list".

One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of 
doing things.  And doing them in a traditional environment.  
That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that
goal is only inherent.  Two hundred years ago you could not
walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned
objects.  And they're just as out of place in the environment 
of this list.

That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there 
are different places to go to enjoy different environments.  
I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the 
mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows.
Oldtools isn't one of them.  There are other groups in which
polyurethane is seen as a good thing.  Again, oldtools isn't
one of them.

I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone
new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what 
kind of place this is.  Reading the archives may be a way,
but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that.  Unfortunately,
I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all 
that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for 
a new person to get an idea of the place.

Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence
is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying
real items like furniture or woodwork.  In my mind the feeling
one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the 
feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools.

When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools,
either being used in their original function to produce fine items
of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake.  One
should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living 
a part of their lives together in this environment.  As one of 
the older members of this list put it, it's all a game.  And we're 
all having fun playing the game together.

Paul Pedersen     
Montreal (Quebec)

Hi Ed---I have a 3c with the same kind of pedigree---its last blade
is a SW, and that one is worn down to the slot---the bottom of this
plane is severely worn, rounded really---you can see from the wear on
the corrugations the the toe and tail are at least 1/16 more worn
away than the throat area...a straightedge reveals the same thing.
  So this particular plane has been at work for about 150 years, only
ten or so of those years in its 'period'...
                        best to all Gs everywhere; gAM seattle
                             
  
Ed wrote:
  I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up 
sweetheart blade in it.  This means that the tools was 50 years old 
when it got it last blade, and then that was used up!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools)
> We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. 

Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new.
A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-)

     BugBear

It's very very possible.... I don't think i have the original post your
comments were made on. One of those oddball see all the replies, but
miss the original.

I believe the article I red where they recommended the red rubbing
compound (turtlewax) was mostly intended for cleaning of wooden
(antique) items. I've never used it, haven't had a chance to try it yet.

When you mentioned the white compound, I may very well have crossed my
wires, thinking you meant the white turtlewax polishing compound.

I apologize if I inadvertantly mixed car cleaning items up with
jewellers white/rouge polishing compounds. I would imagine the makeup,
and use of them are different.

I apologize for the confusion I've inadvertantly caused.

For now, I think I'll just use Brasso to polish the spittoon. If someone
would pass it over here.......

paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood

----- Original Message ----- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date:
Thursday, March 11, 2004 4:04 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and
Shiney does pay)

> Hi Paul & All,
>
> Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe
> have a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made
> in the context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be
> milder and less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of
> any standard red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of
> the white polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are
> some types of old tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound
> might work quite well and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for
> such - just don't start out thinking you're using something milder
> than Brasso.
>
> I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using
> jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso?
>
> Best Wishes, Bob
>
>