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10807 | Gary Roberts <groberts@s...> | 1996‑12‑13 | solvents, anyone? |
Here's a little tidbit from a paper conservation text I was reading today... In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for removing adhesives from paper: heptane benzine toluene acetone ethyl alchohol Surprised me, but than I haven't had Chem for many many years. Comments anyone? (reminds me of a trick someone showed me years ago for loosening old hide glue in joints... inject benzine into the joint, let it evaporate. Inject a little more and work the joint lightly. The hide glue will soften and the joint comes apart. Of course your lungs probably come apart also...) Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? |
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10810 | Tony Blanks <tonyb@d...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
Gary Roberts wrote the following and asked for comments. >Here's a little tidbit from a paper conservation text I was reading today... > >In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for >removing adhesives from paper: > >heptane >benzine >toluene >acetone >ethyl alchohol > >Surprised me, but than I haven't had Chem for many many years. Comments >anyone? (snip) Was that an _old_ text Gary?. I think some of the info may be out of date. People can be careless with their spelling and you may mean benz _i_ne in the old and european sense of petrol / gasoline / white gas. If on the other hand you meant benz_e_ne, there is the critical difference that this stuff has been clearly shown to be a carcinogen in trace amounts It was used for a wide range of uses but it is no longer stuff to use without very effective vapour and contact barriers. People often confuse the two with unfortunate results. Toluene is not a lot better from a Health and Safety point of view. Acetone must still be considered safe enough, given its ubiquitous presence in nail varnish remover, to say nothing of the way fibre glassers spill the stuff around. (just say I was boatbuilding last night and my cats fled from the acetone smell when I walked in home) Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is the basic ingredient of beer, whisky and some rocket fuels. Great stuff, with only the obvious dangers. Heptane I know nothing about. Regards, Tony |
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10813 | Michael D. Sullivan <mds@a...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:44:41 -0500, Gary Roberts wrote: >Here's a little tidbit from a paper conservation text I was reading today... > >In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for >removing adhesives from paper: > >heptane >benzine >toluene >acetone >ethyl alchohol > >Surprised me, but than I haven't had Chem for many many years. Comments >anyone? I'm also surprised, for several reasons. First, "benzine" isn't a proper chemical name for a solvent. It's a generic name for various sorts of petroleum distillates, except perhaps in some countries where it may be the name for a particular sort of solvent. Benzene is a chemical name for a solvent, but it's a serious carcinogen and isn't used in a non-industrial context any more. Any chance the paper conservation text was non-US, where "benzine" might have an accepted meaning? Second, I'm not familiar with heptane being used as a solvent in woodworking or finishing, at least. It is a well-defined, specific petroleum distillate, but I'm not sure how it ranks vs. our more familiar "mineral spirits" and "naptha". My guess is that heptane is comparable to "naptha" and "benzine" is comparable to "mineral spirits" or Stoddard solvent. The progression to toluene and then acetone seems appropriate. Methyl ethyl ketone might fit in somewhere there, as does lacquer thinner, which is a mix of the above. Third, and most peculiar, is the listing of ethyl alcohol as being the most potent of these solvents. There are many things that are soluble in the other solvents that ethyl alcohol will completely ignore. Moreover, I would expect that virtually anything that ethyl alcohol would dissolve would also be dissolved by acetone and/or toluene. Perhaps ethanol was listed last because there are a small number of adhesives that are insoluble in the earlier solvents that are uniquely soluble in ethanol (or methanol), even though methanol is not a more "potent" solvent? In wood refinishing, ethanol would be the first, not last, solvent to try, because shellac will dissolve in it while other more resistant finishes won't. Finally, I'm surprised because there is no listing for solvents such as water (necessary to dissolve dextrose glue [e.g., stamps] and hide glue), ethyl ether, trichloroethane, carbon tetrachloride, or high-tech possibilities such as liquefied CO2 under pressure. -- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA -- Email: mds@a..., avogadro@w... |
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10812 | Brian Stein <bstein@i...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Bio and Re: solvents, anyone? |
Gary Roberts groberts@s... wrote: In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for removing adhesives from paper: heptane benzine toluene acetone ethyl alchohol which prompted me to outlurk and toss in $A 0.02 (0.014 US :-) ) and a brief bio. comment: no real surprises there, you could probably put chloroform up there too - all good organic solvents. personally ethyl alcohol would be my choice of poison. brief bio: i have become interested, primarily as a user, in old tools; partially as a delayed rebellion against paternal regard for fine sawdust and noise rather than shavings :^) . no specific reason to actually get interested in woodwork, just happened on it somehow and found the production of shavings a most restful alternative to making cells jump through hoops at the PhD grindstone and easier to arrange than getting away into the mountains for a good bushwalk. unfortunately tool acquisition appears rather more difficult in this part of the antipodes than i gather in parts northerly, but living in the heart of some perrrfect wine country does help. Brian Stein ~.sig |
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10815 | J. & L. Young <young@c...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
Dear Gary: Did the text go into the relative health risks of the various liquids? In freshman chem, 18 years ago (my god . ..), a nice man who is now dead (jeeze . . .) explained that Benzene was a bad thing and was a strong carcinogen. He never mentioned the others. But seeing your list, I wonder . . . Particularly because I use a lot of alcohol in the basement (yes, that is a straight line -- if any of you are up to the challenge). Best regards, John |
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10817 | Stephen Noe <snoe@i...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
>heptane >benzine >toluene >acetone >ethyl alchohol > >Surprised me, but than I haven't had Chem for many many years. Comments >anyone? |
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10821 | Don Stern <dstern@p...> | 1996‑12‑13 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Gary Roberts wrote: > Here's a little tidbit from a paper conservation text I was reading today... > > In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for > removing adhesives from paper: > > heptane > benzine > toluene > acetone > ethyl alchohol The term "potency" is misaplied in reference to solvents. The solvent properties in this list is directly related to the "polarity" of the material to be dissolved. The list starts with the least polar, heptane to most polar, ethyl alcohol. A good rule of thumb to describe "polarity" is how closely a given material resembles water. For the most polar materials, say water based pigments, the most polar solvents in the list, acetone and ethyl alcohol will be most effective and the others non-effective. An oil based paint, relatively less polar, will dissolve in heptane (cruder paint thinner is a mixture of similar products) and hardly at all in ethanol. Acetone is probably the best "universal" solvent for glues and other similar materials but it must be used very carefully to avoid damage to other surfaces. Other folks have commented on spelling and health issues but from my point of view using small amounts of solvents in a well ventilated area presents minimal risk. The carcinogenic properties of benzene are well documented but the exposure one gets from occasional use in small amounts is negligable. Don Stern |
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10837 | Gary Roberts <groberts@s...> | 1996‑12‑14 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
In reply to all and some... The word was benzIne, not benzene. It is a US published text about ten years old. So I assume that benzine is one of the petroleum distallate mixes. I am waiting for some more recent texts to make it my way via the inter-library loan system. And remember, this was a paper conservation text. The topic was what solvents work best for PAPER. Meaning which solvents would do the least harm to the organic content, finish and ink of printed materials. I can't say that this would translate to wood. But see'n as I do buy trade and tool related paper stuff, and much of it is in need of conservation, there is a tangential relationship to wood, wouldn't you say (almost a pun there!) The text made me think about ways to remove glue stains from wood... the ubiquitous marks left by stick on price labels... while doing the least damage or alteration to the wood and or finish. Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? |
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10849 | Jeff Gorman <Jeff@m...> | 1996‑12‑14 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
Gary Roberts wrote: ~ The text made me think about ways to remove glue stains from wood... the ~ ubiquitous marks left by stick on price labels... while doing the least ~ damage or alteration to the wood and or finish. For generally removing sticky labels, I use a hair dryer. It seems unlikely to do much harm to a wooden surface. With luck, most of the adhesive comes away with the paper. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... |
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10852 | David R. Hunkins <drhunk@c...> | 1996‑12‑14 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
At 09:17 AM 12/14/96 -0500, Jeff Gorman wrote: >For generally removing sticky labels, I use a hair dryer. It seems >unlikely to do much harm to a wooden surface. With luck, most of the >adhesive comes away with the paper. Jeff, Are you saying you apply heat _before_ attempting to remove a label, or are you using the hair dryer on the adhesive left after the label has been removed? David |
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10865 | Bob Johnson <margjohn@m...> | 1996‑12‑15 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
Hi there, Porch Perchers On the subject of removing tape adhesive, my SWMBO recently purchased some gunk called (strangely enough), "Tape Away" tape adhesive remover. It's made by "Deflect-o" and it works. I have been repainting a wall where lots of stuff had been hung with scotch tape (teenage girl lived there). Tape Away did an excellent job of removing the adhesive spots from the wall. I have no commercial interest in this product - just thought I'd shill it because good products deserve good reviews. BTW, I think she bought it in an office supply store. Bob |
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10880 | Jeff Gorman <Jeff@m...> | 1996‑12‑16 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
David Hunkins wrote: ~ >For generally removing sticky labels, I use a hair dryer. It seems ~ >unlikely to do much harm to a wooden surface. With luck, most of the ~ >adhesive comes away with the paper. ~ ~ Jeff, ~ ~ Are you saying you apply heat _before_ attempting to remove a label, or are ~ you using the hair dryer on the adhesive left after the label has been remove d? I just warm the surface+label with the jet on its highest setting and the nozzle an inch or so away. This loosens the adhesive so that it can be peeled away wit hout the paper splitting. If one lifts a corner and pulls while heating, it is e asy to determine when to switch off the dryer. When removing compact disc labels it only temporarily bends the plastic slightly without permanent harm to the case or disc, so I can't see the heat harming the wood. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... |
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10889 | <ledzep@e...> | 1996‑12‑16 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Gary Roberts wrote: Here's a little tidbit from a paper conservation text I was reading today... In order of potency, least to most, these are the solvents recommended for remov ing adhesives from paper: heptane benzine toluene acetone ethyl alchohol I in the middle of reading Flexner's book on woodfinishing and he clears up the benzene/benzine thing. The petroleum distillate that comes off after the gasolin e, is naptha or also called benzine. After this (higher temperature) comes the m ineral spirits. THe pure chemicals benzene and toluene are extracted from this. Benzene is a carcinogen, benzine is ok. He says to remember the "e" in benzene i s like the e in dead, the "i" in benzine is like the i in alive - cute, eh. Carl - (who used to wash his hands is benzene back in organic chem lab) |
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11084 | Gary Roberts <groberts@s...> | 1996‑12‑19 | Re: solvents, anyone? |
At 11:57 PM -0400 12/15/96, Jeff Gorman wrote: >David Hunkins wrote: > >~ >For generally removing sticky labels, I use a hair dryer. It seems >~ >unlikely to do much harm to a wooden surface. With luck, most of the >~ >adhesive comes away with the paper. This long winded diatribe was in response to a side bar about the evils of scotch tape: >>I recently bought a Stanley 271 in the box. The box has scotch tape all >>around the top. I think it is to hold the top together. Do you have any >>thing in your archives o conservation on how to remove scotch tape from >>paper. > >Jim... > >This all depends on the age of the tape. If it is new enough for the >adhesive to be sticky, than you can use one approach, but if the tape is >old and the adhesive is dried, you have to attack it in a different manner. > >New (sticky) tape: One method is to apply a moderate heat source to the >tape to soften the plastic and adhesive just enough to peel the tape off. >You can buy fancy tools for this, but I use two art spatulas... the thin >flexible type. Warm one in hot water, wipe it off and quickly press it to >the tape. As the adhesive softens, gently slip the other one under the >edge of the tape and lift. Keep on doing this a little bit at a time. It >is slow, but using a higher heat source risks damaging the paper. > >Once the tape has been removed, you can work on the remaining adhesive. >The problem is that the solvent to remove the adhesive may disolve or >discolor the paper. You have to test a small area first. I use a q-tip >slightly moistened with the solvent (naptha is good due to it's fast >evaporation, but I have also used ethyl alcholol) and roll it across the >surface (don't rub, roll). If the adhesive lifts, let the surface dry and >check for changes in color. If acceptable, you can now do the same with >the remaining adhesive. Just remember to roll the applicator instead of >rubbing. And change to fresh applicators fequently. > >Old tape: you may be able to peel the old tape off without heating. Take >two spatulas with thin but not sharp blades. Place the edge of one against >the leading edge of the tape. Place the other spatula on top of the first >one. Pressing the bottom spatula against the paper, slide the top spatula >a little bit under the tape and lift with a rolling motion. The idea is >that the bottom one prevents the paper fibers from lifting and tearing >while the top one separates the tape from the paper. > >If this is not possible, you can try the heat method to see if the adhesive >will soften. With either method, you will likely have some dark staining >remaining from the adhesive. But I prefer that to the tape. > >If the tape is really stubborn, you may have to use a solvent directly on >the tape. This is time consuming as you can only work on a small area at a >time. You have to be careful not to saturate the paper as much as >possible. Some saturation is inevitable, but with care you can minimize >the affects. > >If it helps, I have a 45 in a cardboard box held together with duct tape. >I waited about 1 year for the tape to become sufficiently dry for me to >peel it off. > >Hope this helps Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? |
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