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271334 "dks@t..." <dks@t...> 2020‑06‑24 tapered plane irons
Many years ago, on a work-related trip abroad, I visited London markets at Penny
Lane and Bermondsey. I was feeling flush, and chanced upon a Spiers panel plane
at a price I won't mention. This is a worker plane, not a collector's item,
fitted with a 2-1/2in Sorby iron. I scraped the bottom a little to flatten it
out, and have used it from time to time when it seemed the right thing to do.
But I have always been vaguely dissatisfied with its performance, or perhaps, my
own performance with it. At any rate, more recently, I chanced upon a Marples
iron and cap to fit it, and picked it up for no special reason except the
coincidence of our meeting. Yesterday I compared the two irons and found, among
other things, the Sorby has a primary bevel of about 27deg., and the Marples a
little larger yet. I decided to grind Marples down to 25deg, my favoured primary
bevel, which I finished just in time to send this msg off and cleanup for
dinner.

SO, here's the question. What primary bevel angle was historically or is
currently favoured for these beefy cutters? Have I made a mistake by grinding
the Marples primary down to 25deg., or could it go even lower?

Don
271370 "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons
> On Jun 24, 2020, at 16:50 , dks@t... wrote:
> 
> 
> Many years ago, on a work-related trip abroad, I visited London markets at
Penny Lane and Bermondsey. I was feeling flush, and chanced upon a Spiers panel
plane at a price I won't mention. This is a worker plane, not a collector's
item, fitted with a 2-1/2in Sorby iron. I scraped the bottom a little to flatten
it out, and have used it from time to time when it seemed the right thing to do.
But I have always been vaguely dissatisfied with its performance, or perhaps, my
own performance with it.

Sounds like my first infill plane, a no-name smoother I bought from the Merchant
of Ashby. "Vaguely dissatisfied" describes my experience with pretty much every
tool that I thought would cure my tearout problems forever, but there's always
one more tool or tweak to try.

> At any rate, more recently, I chanced upon a Marples iron and cap to fit it,
and picked it up for no special reason except the coincidence of our meeting.
Yesterday I compared the two irons and found, among other things, the Sorby has
a primary bevel of about 27deg., and the Marples a little larger yet. I decided
to grind Marples down to 25deg, my favoured primary bevel, which I finished just
in time to send this msg off and cleanup for dinner.
> 
> SO, here's the question. What primary bevel angle was historically or is
currently favoured for these beefy cutters? Have I made a mistake by grinding
the Marples primary down to 25deg., or could it go even lower?

Catching up on email, I noticed that no one had responded to this, so I'll
offload some of my ignorance here. I grind mine somewhere between 25-30˚, but
can't say if that's historically favored; it's typical on the secondhand planes
I've bought. For a common pitch plane with 45˚ bed angle, that should give you
plenty of clearance, and generally the older steels like O1 or W1 take a fine
edge down to 25˚ (unlike modern A2). For York pitch, you can use a more obtuse
bevel, which I suspect would give you a longer-lasting edge.

Adam
271371 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons (warning -ramble mode)
Tut tut.  Don asked a perfectly intriguing question last month, and it’s taken
Adam to point out that we hadn’t replied.

So here is my tuppence worth - and worth every penny.  

Two penies are, of course, traditional to place over the eyes of the dead, but
don’t let that get in the way (Lockdown viewing of the newest BBC version of
‘Christmas Carol’ brought that to mind.

But back to the question - what angle to grind a blade?  

and the ultimate answer is - ‘It depends’ 

No one here would expect anything else, surely.  Don has a good question though,
so let’s see what the dependencies are.  In diminishing order of importance they
are:-

The tool  
The timber  
The user.  

Firstly - the bed angle of the tool.  

There are only 2 was of mounting a blade.  Bevel down -as in a bench plane, or
bevel up, as in some bench planes and block planes, and chisels.

At different times, manufacturers have experimented with bed angles.  A few
hundred years of experience has settled on 45 degrees being a suitable
compromise.  York pitch is taken as being 50 degrees.  The fact that York is the
capital of Yorkshire, has nothing to do with my liking for the name and number.
Half pitch is 60 degrees.

Begin by assuming there is no angle on the blade at all.  For a bevel down
blade, If the bed angle of the plane is 45 degrees, then the effective angle of
the blade meeting the wood will also be 45.  You will need a 45 degree on the
trailing side to make the leading edge of the blade contact the timber.  This is
the bevel.  Make it a bit less than 45 to give some clearance, otherwise the
leading corner - the sharp bit - is not in contact with the wood.  In this
configuration of blade, the angle the blade meets the timber is always
determined by the bed angle.

So, lets say 40 degrees, giving an effective angle of 5 degrees of clearance. 

Alternatively, we know that a slicing cut, as in a chisel or carving knife, is
more effective with a lower angle, so if we use a plane with a lower bed angle,
we will have better, or at least different, results.  A 62 (Low angle jack
plane, Jeff)  has a bed angle of 12 degrees.   Imagine the blade as a slab
again, and it meets at 12 degrees, This is a bevel up plane, so the effective
angle is 12 degrees,  no clearance bevel needed,  But some sort of bevel is
needed to produce a sharp edge.  A 25 degree bevel, plus the bed, will provide a
37 degree angle.

Now comes your compromising.  Does 37 degrees, in your timber, provide the
balance you want between effort and finish?

If you put no bevel on, then you would find it hard to make a cut.  if you put a
bevel of 80 degrees,  being 92 degrees angle of attack, the chips wouldn’t break
away cleanly and immediately, and you would get a rough finish.  (Also, the edge
is now so thin that it is weak and unsupported.  Once again, we can use millions
of hours of other people’s experience that turns out to settle on a combined
angle of around that 45 degrees being a good all round figure.

Now turn to timber - what sort of work do you do?  If you are working with
hardwoods then a steeper bevel is generally good.  The higher pitch of planes -
York and cabinet pitches that bring the angle up to 50 or 60 degrees are used
for hard woods that may be tricky.  At the final end of this spectrum we come to
scrapers, where the angle of attack is 90 degrees or more, with very light cuts
to deal with problem grain.   A cabinet pitch plane is something that lets you
plane such a timber and still tries to minimise tear out.

The other consideration for hard woods is blade wear.  A steeper bevel leaves
more material behind the cutting edge to provide some strength and rigidity.
But it is harder to force through the timber.
Now, if you are working softwoods, it’s all different.  You can use a shallower
pitch, and a finer bevel, that original 45 degree pitch of bazillions of Stanley
planes from the days of wooden buildings all done by hand slews ‘the average’
towards the big seller items and the bench planes are made for soft woods.  In
paces where hard woods were in use, which in out tradition is probably finer
cabinet work, with the introduction of mahogany, walnut even the earlier oak,
then the norm would be for something like York pitch, and a bevel that is
steeper.

Your plane - your timber - your sharpening methods - your muscle power. 


So, as I said at the beginning  “It depends”  

The only real advice I would give, and do so to any newcomers, is not to be
obsessive.  You really MUST find out how to sharpen to as near to that obsidian
one atom thickness edge.  When you’ve done that, ignore it most of the time,
just sharpen ‘enough’ to get the job done, and keep a few spare planes set up
for different timber (on this list that should be no problem), and one with that
super sharp blade that is set to take a mere kiss of wispiness at a time for the
final clean up.


Hope all that helped.  

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot.  In Northumbria
271379 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons
On 2020-07-03 10:24 p.m., Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
> Catching up on email, I noticed that no one had responded to this, so I'll
offload some of my ignorance here. I grind mine somewhere between 25-30˚, but
can't say if that's historically favored; it's typical on the secondhand planes
I've bought. For a common pitch plane with 45˚ bed angle, that should give you
plenty of clearance, and generally the older steels like O1 or W1 take a fine
edge down to 25˚ (unlike modern A2). For York pitch, you can use a more obtuse
bevel, which I suspect would give you a longer-lasting edge.

Thanks to Adam & the Yorkshireman for their thoughtful replies.  I 
suspected that nobody really knows the bevel & honing angles favoured 
historically for the tapered irons used in infill planes like my Spiers 
panel plane. I am inclined to think they would most often have been used 
on hardwoods, particularly brown oak and mahogany and also exotics - 
rosewood and such. So higher pitched irons might have been favoured, 
except that most if not all of the infills I've seen  were bedded at 45 
deg. or thereabouts. I had been hoping someone more observant than I 
might have noticed certain bevel angles were most common on these 
planes, but it seems maybe not. The few infills with which I have 
experience had bevel angles of about 30 deg when found - higher than I 
would normally use.

In any case, I ground the iron I mentioned previously at 25deg, and 
honed it with microbevels according to the method espoused by our 
recently-departed Brent Beach, and found the plane performed 
wonderfully, easily achieving glassy smoothness on poplar and white oak, 
as well as on tiger/fiddleback maple, a piece with tortuously undulating 
grain. It produced the finest wispiest shavings I've ever cut - 0.0005in 
in each of those 3 species. It remains to be seen how long the edge 
holds up.

FWIW

Don

-- 
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” —
Albert Einstein

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271384 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons
Well I am certainly not going to improve on Richard's advice over blade 
mechanics.
Good one Brother!

   I'll just add that I have never measured a bevel angle on a bench 
plane blade in my life.
Eyeball it and if it doesn't work, oh well. Only takes a minute to grind 
to more or less bevel, and hone it out again, anyways.

    The only reason I am writing is just to remind us,
the fantasy of plowing straight down the face of a plank, with any 
plane, in any wood,
with no problems?......... is really rare.
Yup it does happen but never count on it haahaha

   Wood does not care how you want to work it. Wood can only be worked 
in the way it can be worked.
(kind of like a girl I knew)
   Heavily skewed, and attacking from --every-- angle until the right 
one shows itself??
Is how I plane pretty much all wood.

   There is also a little bit of how hard or lightly I press the plane 
down as I work. You really do have some control in this aspect, and it 
matters.
   yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
271385 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons
On 2020-07-04 1:47 p.m., scott grandstaff wrote:
> Well I am certainly not going to improve on Richard's advice over 
> blade mechanics.
> Good one Brother!
>
>   I'll just add that I have never measured a bevel angle on a bench 
> plane blade in my life.
> Eyeball it and if it doesn't work, oh well. Only takes a minute to 
> grind to more or less bevel, and hone it out again, anyways.
Whatever works for you, and I don't doubt it does. For my part, I prefer 
to know what my grinding & honing angles are, so I can quickly set up, 
regrind or rehone without wasting time or steel in the process. I've 
never developed the ability to achieve a good edge while honing hand-held.
>
>    The only reason I am writing is just to remind us,
> the fantasy of plowing straight down the face of a plank, with any 
> plane, in any wood,
> with no problems?......... is really rare.
> Yup it does happen but never count on it haahaha
>
>   Wood does not care how you want to work it. Wood can only be worked 
> in the way it can be worked.
> (kind of like a girl I knew)
>   Heavily skewed, and attacking from --every-- angle until the right 
> one shows itself??
> Is how I plane pretty much all wood.
>
>   There is also a little bit of how hard or lightly I press the plane 
> down as I work. You really do have some control in this aspect, and it 
> matters. 

Absolutely!

Best regards all.

Don

-- 
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” —
Albert Einstein

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271388 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑07‑04 Re: tapered plane irons
I've never developed the ability to achieve a good edge while honing 
hand-held.

   The door is open Partner
I will bet you money I can have to making a shaving edge, freehand, in 
no time.
Its so easy you'll laugh out loud.
(I am famously lazy. If there is an easy way you better believe I am 
going to find it)

   Yeah yeah I know, my place is conveniently "right on the way" to 
nowhere.
But if you do it anyway.........you'll be most welcome.

Extending the invitation to every pair of eyes reading this, as well
    happy 4th
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
271396 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
GGs

With Scott Grandstaff on this one.

I’m offering a grind angle of between 25 and 30 deg, and a hone angle somewhere
above that. Not sure if it really matters for a plane.

If you ever have the opportunity to inspect a time capsule tool chest that some
old time tradesman closed the lid on 40 or 50 years ago and hasn’t been tampered
with since, you will likely be astounded at the variety of cutter angles. Yet
apparently the tools worked. If the only grinder available is manually operated,
then nice even grinds at specific angles might not be all that alluring.

On the other hand, I’ve never used a manually operated grinder, and I do like to
achieve an even grind on cutters, and a nice shiny honed back, so I’m a habitual
tool sharpener. I’ve got to admit that out on site there’s an element of smug
pride in handing a chisel to another carpenter, and having to look him straight
in the eye and give a ‘this is sharp, proper sharp’ warning.

And this might come as a surprise to the non tradesmen members of this list.
Sharp tools on work sites are unusual. It’s probably always been thus, tools
only need to be sharp enough to earn you a wage.

Oh, and in my 40 odd years of work, carpenters were always ‘him’. It wasn’t
until 2018 that I worked with a carpenter that was a ‘her’. Not to disappoint,
her tools were atrociously un-sharp.

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia
271398 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
I wouldn't dispute this for a minute. Anyone who's making a living with 
woodworking tools has to keep in mind the need to be productive. It's 
like guitarists sometimes say about the tuning of their instruments 
'Good enough for folk.' BUT these infill planes were not a rough 
carpentry tool . They were expensive in their day, and could only be 
justified by work that required a high degree of finish, particularly on 
exotic woods. Clearly someone who's highly skilled can produce a fine 
cutting edge with little effort, and do so consistently. But the 
cabinetmakers and joiners who worked on fine furniture and fittings 
would not have made do with 'good enough for folk', because their 
customers would have demanded better. Certainly there would be a range 
of bevels that would produce good, even excellent work. But to do so 
consistently requires a consistent approach to the sharpening process, 
whatever that might be.

Don

On 2020-07-04 6:27 p.m., Mick Dowling wrote:
> GGs
>
> With Scott Grandstaff on this one.
>
> I’m offering a grind angle of between 25 and 30 deg, and a hone angle
somewhere above that. Not sure if it really matters for a plane.
>
> If you ever have the opportunity to inspect a time capsule tool chest that
some old time tradesman closed the lid on 40 or 50 years ago and hasn’t been
tampered with since, you will likely be astounded at the variety of cutter
angles. Yet apparently the tools worked. If the only grinder available is
manually operated, then nice even grinds at specific angles might not be all
that alluring.
>
> On the other hand, I’ve never used a manually operated grinder, and I do like
to achieve an even grind on cutters, and a nice shiny honed back, so I’m a
habitual tool sharpener. I’ve got to admit that out on site there’s an element
of smug pride in handing a chisel to another carpenter, and having to look him
straight in the eye and give a ‘this is sharp, proper sharp’ warning.
>
> And this might come as a surprise to the non tradesmen members of this list.
Sharp tools on work sites are unusual. It’s probably always been thus, tools
only need to be sharp enough to earn you a wage.
>
> Oh, and in my 40 odd years of work, carpenters were always ‘him’. It wasn’t
until 2018 that I worked with a carpenter that was a ‘her’. Not to disappoint,
her tools were atrociously un-sharp.
>
> Mick Dowling
> Melbourne Australia
>
>
>
>> On 5 Jul 2020, at 5:47 am, scott grandstaff  wrote:
>>
>> Well I am certainly not going to improve on Richard's advice over blade
mechanics.
>> Good one Brother!
>>
>>    I'll just add that I have never measured a bevel angle on a bench plane
blade in my life.
>> Eyeball it and if it doesn't work, oh well. Only takes a minute to grind to
more or less bevel, and hone it out again, anyways.
>>
>>     The only reason I am writing is just to remind us,
>> the fantasy of plowing straight down the face of a plank, with any plane, in
any wood,
>> with no problems?......... is really rare.
>> Yup it does happen but never count on it haahaha
>>
>>    Wood does not care how you want to work it. Wood can only be worked in the
way it can be worked.
>> (kind of like a girl I knew)
>>    Heavily skewed, and attacking from --every-- angle until the right one
shows itself??
>> Is how I plane pretty much all wood.
>>
>>    There is also a little bit of how hard or lightly I press the plane down
as I work. You really do have some control in this aspect, and it matters.
>>    yours scott
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-- 
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” —
Albert Einstein

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271401 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
I’ve never used a manually operated grinder, and I do like to achieve 
an even grind on cutters, and a nice shiny honed back

hey Mick you'd be surprised.
I started with hand crank grinders. Living off the grid.
First was a miserable cheap stamped sheet metal grinder. But pretty 
quick I found a nice old heavy cast iron number.
  One hand cranking, the other feeding the tool across.
  It doesn't take long at all to get your balance and do beautiful bevels.
  I'm sure you'd be a natural at it.

Want to see something? I got a tiny package in the mail today.
A caliper keychain. Like I really needed one.

I don't know whose idea it was to make it. I am sure somebody said oh 
yeah we'll sell lots of calipers to the tourists. They all use calipers 
right?

When they showed up they wouldn't really work. But a few minutes with a 
needle file and they slide like Tiffany now.
You can't trust the scale for accurate but you could use it as ballpark
Probably wouldn't last a day as a keychain. But as a miniature toy 
caliper they really do work.

  file:///C:/Users/scottg/Documents/aplanepix/auction/caliperkeychain.JPG

Oh yeah, $1.32 free shipping. They are all over ebay.

     yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
271402 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/cali
perkeychain.JPG
wrong link sorry

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
271403 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
Hey - are youse blokes on holiday or something?  Locked away with your dust
masks,,, err plague masks in place?   Suddenly lots of comment on this so-nearly
abandoned question.


Don says
>  I've never developed the ability to achieve a good edge while honing hand-
held.



And he’ll get no more crispy cool cider from this corner of the porch until I’ve
taken him over to this bench with the 6 inch grinder and the pair of stones, one
fine, one a touch coarser, and set about him.  Educating him, that is.


First off, you put a hollow grind on your blade, with a 6” grinder.  I happen to
use 8” but this is for training, right.  Take the bevel to the edge, being
careful not to burn it.  You may, whilst learning, go close but not ’to’ the
edge.   A hand grinder makes it less likely that you will burn it, but it’s well
capable of doing so, so practice on an old blade a few times if you’re unsure.
Their is a sweet spot that Scott G lives in where the grit is whisking off metal
with minimal friction.  Too little pressure, and you’re rubbing and burning, too
much and you’re increasing the friction and burning.

So you now have a bevel which is very much not flat. 

Move over to the stones.  

Look at your bevel - ig you took it to a wire edge, go to the smooth stone, if
there is a tiny line of light from where you came very close, you may wish to
start with a coarser stone. Once you have done this a couple of times you will
just ‘know’ where to start.

Take the blade in a comfortable grip and place the bevel on to the stone. I use
a delicate touch with my left hand to rock it up and down on the bevel. Do the
smae.  You will feel when it touches the stone at both top and bottom of the
hollow ground bevel.  It gives a click and you will feel the pivot point move
from front to back of the bevel.

When you the blade bottomed on both edges of the bevel, lift the back side a bit
and take a couple of strokes.  You won’t burn it on an oilstone or water stone,
so you can bear down ‘enough’ - you are, after all, trying to rip off bits from
a very hard material.  3 or 4 should do it.   If you were beginning on the
coarser stone with more to remove, then check and repeat.  If you had the bevel
to the edge, then 3 or 4 on a smooth stone will do it. (not the 8000 grit yuppy
waterstones, but a normal, smooth carborundum stone)
Hold down the back of the blafe onto the stone and wipe over to remove the wire
edge.

If you are sharpening a best blade for final work, the procedure is the same,
bit you are then allowed to use your yuppy stone and strop both faces of the
sharpened edge.


For everyday, go to work, such as Mick was describing, the above sharpening
process is very quick - you don’t give a damn about the angles much. Just
recognise that point where the bevel edges are both registered, and lift a bit.
When you’ve done this  few times you don’t feel that register because you have
removed so much of the primary bevel material, so it’s back to the grinder for a
hollow tune up.  After you’ve done this enough your hands will ‘know’ the right
angle to maintain, and you can do the olf guys thing of cutting back a primary
flat bevel on the coarse stone, then do the same ‘lift a bit’ to get the
secondary bevel and re sharpen until the face you’re sharpening is so wide you
need to take back the main bevel again.


There are, of course variations, but the notion of the hollow grind giving you
the initial ‘feel’ to allow a couple of swipes by hand to restore a sharp edge
is a revelation.


You will accomplish more woodwork, with a sharp edge, than all the tomfoolery
with jigs and precise angles, because it is the work of about a minute or less
to give yourself a newly sharp blade.  so you do it more often.


Consider.
That obsidian edge that is sharp to a single atom width.  Imagine if atoms were
car tyres.  that one edge is suported by two behind it.  imagine how small the
contact point is between that leading atom and the two that support it.  easy
for it to break away.  Now the edge is duller.  Repeat.
Now consider what we do.  Regardless of the fancy expensive steel of the blade
and all the marketing hype, as soon as it is used it is dulled.   but that first
stroke is pure bliss.


You’re watching the lads in ten acre field mowing with scythes.  One comes near,
with the slow and steady sway of the 3 foot blade laying down the hay into a
band parallel to that of his marras’  he stops to sharpen the scythe, taking his
scythe stone from the wet pocket container at his belt and runs it over the
paper thin blade, Out and back, out and back.
You ask him “how often do you need to sharpen it?” and get back the answer honed
by the experience of many years
“Well now, that depends on whether the field is dry or damp and how soft the
stems are.  And when I want a break, I sharpen the scythe.”  and he puts back
the stone, take a hold of the work polished snedd and settles back to the
curious waving gait of the mower.



Which suggests that you need to do plenty of lightweight sharpening to keep up
that blissful experience.  As Scott said - It’s a zen experience, working with
the wood to discover how best to shape it or shave it to leave the best finish
and respect the way it grew.   A minute now and agin to consider, and to re-
sharpen in a process that doesn’t need full attention to read numbers and sight
up jigs is one of those zen moments.  You stay connected with the job.



There - a bit philosophical, as it’s being a Sunday and all.  Makes me want to
go in the workshop and cut those oak slices for top and bottom of a wee box
that’s a making.



Richard Wilson
Yorkshumbrian
271404 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
I suppose you’ve been down the pub. No need to skite!

Mick Dowling
271405 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
Nope.  

Thi has t’ wrang end o’ t’ stick.   I can’t be finding ’skite’ in any on t’
byuks on this page..  At least, not to maek sense’ out’n whattiver thee’s sayin’

https://northumbrianlanguagesociety.co.uk/library/read-it/reference-books/<
/a> 


(like OldTools, I seem to be involved in both the Northumbrian Language and the
Yorkshire Dialect Society now.)
271406 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
It might as be, but cast an eye to Scots Dialect.  A sluagh o'
definitions, that can be summed up as rush off. 

Mike in Woodland

I can't be finding 'skite' in any on t' byuks on this page..  At least,
not to maek sense' out'n whattiver thee's sayin'
271407 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
I neglected to thank you for the link to Northumbrian dialects!  I'm a
sucker for this stuff! 

Mike in Woodland
271408 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
Mike, GGs

Turns out I’ve inadvertently used an Australianism, and without appropriate
explanation. To skite means to boast.

Nil old tool content, except for the subject line.

Mick Dowling
271409 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
Aye well, in Scots it means summat wuss, and we’d be in a fallin’ oot if tha’
was what ye was a callin’ a fellow galoot.

https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/sk
ite_v2_n2  


R

Still due to go and saw out some thinnish oak for the top and bottom of a box
fitted for herself’s new secateurs.
271412 Kirk Eppler 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 4:51 PM dks@t...  wrote:

>
> SO, here's the question. What primary bevel angle was historically or is
> currently favoured for these beefy cutters? Have I made a mistake by
> grinding the Marples primary down to 25deg., or could it go even lower?
>

Going completely opposite of Sir Richard's logical approach, I went to the
garage and into the box of spare cutting edges, and measured the thick
(mostly tapered) irons.  These have accumulated over time, and a few were
purchased as a lot. Some are bench plane and some are molding plane
blades.  I did not measure skinny parallel irons.

Here is the summary:
* between this and the next angle up,  I was only measuring to the nearest
5° with my gauge
** almost mirror polished so guessing a newer job

I decided I wasn't going to pull the blades out of all my planes, as I have
messed with all of them, going to the nearest 5° degrees.  Plus, it would
take forever to get them set up right again.

15* -2 **
20* - 3**
25 - 11  (1**)
30 - 4
35 - 2 (1**)
40* -2
-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, where the beaches are closed, and walking
traffic is almost tolerable for a holiday weekend.  This is not Amity
Island!
271413 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑07‑05 Re: tapered plane irons
Thanks Kirk, for the bevel survey. Clearly 25 deg was by far the most 
favoured.

Don


On 2020-07-05 12:52 p.m., Kirk Eppler wrote:
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 4:51 PM dks@t... <mailto:d
ks@t...> 
> mailto:dks@t...>> wrote:
>
>
>     SO, here's the question. What primary bevel angle was historically
>     or is currently favoured for these beefy cutters? Have I made a
>     mistake by grinding the Marples primary down to 25deg., or could
>     it go even lower?
>
>
> Going completely opposite of Sir Richard's logical approach, I went to 
> the garage and into the box of spare cutting edges, and measured the 
> thick (mostly tapered) irons.  These have accumulated over time, and a 
> few were purchased as a lot. Some are bench plane and some are molding 
> plane blades.  I did not measure skinny parallel irons.
>
> Here is the summary:
> * between this and the next angle up,  I was only measuring to the 
> nearest 5° with my gauge
> ** almost mirror polished so guessing a newer job
>
> I decided I wasn't going to pull the blades out of all my planes, as I 
> have messed with all of them, going to the nearest 5° degrees.  Plus, 
> it would take forever to get them set up right again.
>
> 15* -2 **
> 20* - 3**
> 25 - 11  (1**)
> 30 - 4
> 35 - 2 (1**)
> 40* -2
> -- 
> Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, where the beaches are closed, and 
> walking traffic is almost tolerable for a holiday weekend.  This is 
> not Amity Island!
>

-- 
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” —
Albert Einstein

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271419 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: tapered plane irons
Scott

Hand crank grinders. Not falling for that one.

Still smarting from the long weight incident.

Mick Dowling
271423 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: Hand-Cranked Grinders [WAS: tapered plane irons ]
> On Jul 5, 2020, at 10:16 PM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> If I had indoor space, I’d like have one of the big foot-pedal water trough
grinders with a large Beria, Ohio, sandstone wheel.  You’d be hard-pressed to
burn an edge with one of those!

John

That’s my home town, and it’s Berea, Ohio.  We were so small we had a town
triangle because we couldn't afford a town square:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/50082577321/in/dateposted-public/

Berea was called the sandstone capitol of America, and many of the houses haad
some sort of sandstone feature on them.  Growing up in the 50’s, the sandstone
factories had closed, but we could still goof around on the sites amid the piles
of broken grinding wheels.  Here is a postcard from the time:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/50081997263/in/dateposted-
public/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/50081997263/in
/dateposted-public/>

The main quarry closed in the 20’s and was full of water, and one of my dad’s
best friends drowned in it when they were kids - he always warned us not to swim
in it.  There was supposed to be a small steam train aat the bottom that was
left there when it was flooded.

From a fellow galoot, I acquired a Beres whetstonenew in an orange box - looked
like 40-50’s. They must have been trading on the name because there is not hard
black stone anywhere near Berea.

In the early 00’s, Don McConnel came up from his home in south central Ohio for
a walk down Rock River through the area where the factories were and we found a
few pieces of grinding stone.  Great afternoon listening to Don’s stories.

Ed Minch
271425 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: Hand-Cranked Grinders [WAS: tapered plane irons ]
Ed, and other Galoots Curious About Ohio Grindstones:

The EAIA Chronicle did a full article on the grindstone industry of Ohio some
years back.  I believe it spanned two or three issues.

I myself have a massive heirloom whetstone, 14” x 4” x 2-1/2”, which I believe
is Berea sandstone, as it is the correct color and texture and certainly does
not resemble Arkansas Novaculite stone.

This was given to me by my late father.  IIRC, he said it had belonged to his
father.  The era would be about right for a Berea stone ; my paternal
grandfather passed away fairly young in 1928.

I’ve jokingly named it “The Stone of Ruth”

Well-swaybacked, my father could none the less put a very useful freehand edge
on almost anything using this stone.  When he taught me to hone, he said to set
the honing angle by feel.  That means keeping the angle _to the surface of the
stone_ constant as the blade traverses the swayback.

I’m no where near as good at it as he was.

John Ruth
Who always wanted to visit “The Grindstone Wreck,” a wooden sailing vessel which
had a cargo of grindstones. It sank in shallow water off the Jersey shore.  I
recently learned of another such wreck in Lake Erie.
271426 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: Hand-Cranked Grinders [WAS: tapered plane irons ]
John

The sandstone from the area that I am familiar with is fairly soft and with
another rock you can get sand of the surface pretty easily.  I don't thing there
would be anything local that could be used as a whetstone.

If you are looking through the back issues for another reason and you come
across the article(s), let me know what issues they are in
271429 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: tapered plane irons (warning -ramble mode)
oh, yes.  what a lovely description from the north of engerland.  thank
you, richard.

bill
felton, ca

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 11:28 PM yorkshireman@y... <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote [vastly snipped per FAQ]:
271431 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑07‑06 Re: tapered plane irons
>>
>> 15* -2 **
>> 20* - 3**
>> 25 - 11  (1**)
>> 30 - 4
>> 35 - 2 (1**)
>> 40* -2

I suspect the 25 degrees relates to the length of the bevel more than 
anything.

Just because I never measured a bevel doesn't mean I don't know what 
bevel works.
I know exactly the bevel I am going for before I ever start.
I know whats worked best after years of trial.
     Its surely around 25 or so.  In that ballpark.

Its a long bevel, front to back.
You don't want it too long and thin and you don't want it too short and 
cumbersome.

But basically, it's a fairly long good brand new even bevel you need to 
grind on most blades,
  for woodwork.

A newly ground bevel in a woodworking blade is just wicked magic. Hone 
it a little but don't screw up................. and its magic.

   Trying to mess with an old bevel is painful.

  But a new one....................... easy street.

   I have a Stanley Sweetheart #3 that has been the love of my life for 
45 years. And her blade is only a little shorter after 50 blade grindings.
You don't have to cut a lot most times.
Just clean it up, even it out and and get to the new steel.

  Nobody is going to tell you this, because there is no money in it.
But newly exposed, unoxidized steel accurately ground?
  is a new world.

All the contraptions and gizmos and diamonds ever made, are trying to 
pretend what a new steel edge is like.

  With a new edge you don't have to try so hard.
  Its all downhill with a new edge.

  Depending on the thickness of the steel, they get pretty long. The 
angle is th same with thick steel but the bevel is longer

and of course............. you have to
  Shorten up,  if going into brutal service

  but mostly, a pretty long even bevel for bench work gives good service.

   Its easy to see how long the bevel is, as you are grinding.
Easiest thing to check as you work.

A barely shorter bevel when using a smaller wheel, because you get more 
hollow grind.
And then adjust accordingly as the wheel gets larger.

    But you only have to figure it out once, whatever you're using.
And its not that different for any of them really.
  So you get it once, you got it.

Then its the same ol same ol for the next 100 blades in a row.... haahahaha

  After a million blades..................You just keep track of the 
bevel length.
  Thats where the money is.
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

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