Jaime Metcher writes:

> First off, listen to Ralph - he's forgotten more than I'll ever know.

Ok, so we've established that Jaime has lost touch with reality, but we
won't hold that against him... ;-)

[snip-- why the #55 works better than woodies for Jaime]

Sounds like Jaime has some really lousy luck with woodies.  I will say,
however, that his results are not atypical for *complex* molders.  These can
be very difficult to fettle, but in their favor, once tuned they should stay
that way for 50 years or so.

This is the main reason that I don't recommend complex molders for folks
starting with woodies.  Beads, H&Rs, ovolos and the like are *much* easier
to get working, and less likely to need a lot of work.  H&Rs in particular
are very easy to tune and get good results with.

> 1. matching the cutter profile to the sole (nearly all of my cutters are
nicked or misshapen in some way) is an *very* finicky job.  The precision
required here is well in excess of that required for making joints.  #55's
lack of sole wins here.

For a complex molder, Jaime is absolutely right.  For a simple profile like
a H&R, though, it is dead simple.  Get a 1/2" wide stone for your grinder,
and use a wheel dresser to put a full radius on the edge.  This can be used
to sharpen all but the smallest profiles.

On H&Rs, the goal is to get a 1/64" or so projection in the center that
fades away to nothing at the very edge.  Polish the face of the iron to a
high shine so that it stands out, and place it in the plane.  Sight down the
sole, and you will be able to see where the blade needs to get knocked down
a bit.  Address these areas with the grinder (work slowly, and cool often),
and after 3-4 iterations you should have it perfect.

> 2. reconditioning the bed is even trickier.  #55's lack of bed wins here.

Jaime is dead right again.  If a woodie needs significant bed work or the
mouth has been opened up, don't even bother with it.  Warped or bowed planes
are basically firewood.  If there are small chips in the sole, or a bit of
missing boxing, or slight checks, it's not serious and can usually be
ignored.

> 3. once all of that is done, choking is a major problem for all but the
lightest cuts (and light cuts aren't even possible unless steps 1 & 2 are
well under control).  #55's lack of throat wins here.

Choking is almost always caused by wedge problems.  Check to make sure that
the blade sits tightly on the bed (no gaps), and that the wedge sits tightly
against the iron.  If there is anyplace a shaving can catch, it needs to be
eliminated.

Often choking problems can be fixed by a little reshaping of the wedge, but
this should only be done as a last resort.  In most cases all that is
required is getting the blade and wedge to seat properly.

> I'll end with a question - how tuned are Tony Murland's sets?

Since there's no brass on a H&R, these are normally spared the buff-job.
Tony's stuff is first rate and very reasonable-- I've bought quite a lot
from him over the years.  As Scott said, his woodies are normally in
"as-found" condition, and should only need a little work to make usable.

ralph (all packed up for this weekend's class!)

All,

I'm gald to have stumbled across this group.

My name is Bill Stephens.  I'm a 32 year old software engineer (IT
again) for a big online service. Most of my woodworking experience deals
with house restoration work. My current house is a 150 year old
farmhouse with walnut woodwork (except where the previous owners tore it
out) and a 150 year old timber frame barn about 30 miles from Columbus,
OH.  The old milking parlor attached to the barn is my acting shop.

I need to make some base board and a mantle to restore the "altered"
rooms.  I'll be looking for a bunch of planes to reproduce this stuff.
My father in law tells me to get an router with a tail but it seems so
wrong to do the work that way. Luckily, SWMBO doesn't care how I get it
done and isn't bothered by old tools (she got me a NICE #5 for our
anniversary this year).

Anybody know some good places in Ohio to find a variety of good user
woodies?  The first one I need will be a quirked ogee with bevel about 1
   .5 to 2 inches wide for the baseboard. I saw one, sold of course, on
Bob Brodes site that is just what I'm looking for, it even had my name
stamped on it!

http://modigliani.brandx.net/user/bbrode/tools_for_sale/aug00/qogeebv/64.jpg

I've also been considering a #55 since I have a bunch of profiles to
create.  I could also hope to get my brother to make me some custom
blades in his machine shop for this thing.

Glad to be here,
Bill Stephens

Bill,

Welcome to the the Porch, you'll always find someone
here to give you a nudge down any number of slippery
slopes.

On February 24 there will be a gathering of people
interested in old tools, appropriately named Ohio Tool
Collectors Assoc. at Pickerington Jr. High, 130 South
Hill Rd., Pickerington.  The meeting starts at 8:00
A.M. and will last until about Noon.  While there may
not be the exact plane you're looking for, I'm sure
there will be plenty to look at.  On that day, it will
probably be the best place in Ohio to look for some
good users.  If you need additional details, I would
be glad to supply them.

Jim Crammond

--- Bill Stephens  wrote:
> Anybody know some good places in Ohio to find a
> variety of good user
> woodies?  The first one I need will be a quirked
> ogee with bevel about 1
>    .5 to 2 inches wide for the baseboard. 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://greetings.yahoo.com

Bill Stephens writes:

> I need to make some base board and a mantle to restore the "altered"
> rooms.  I'll be looking for a bunch of planes to reproduce this stuff.

[snip]

First off, welcome to the Support Group From Hell, Bill!  You won't find a
better source for old tool and technique information anywhere.

Second off (and everyone who's been here more than a few months knows what's
coming next), I'd suggest that making the molding with hollows and rounds
may be a better idea than trying to use a complex molding plane for short
runs like this.  If you've never seen the technique, it's pretty simple--
you lay out the low points with a plow or V-groover, use rounds to get the
basic shape, and finish up with the hollows to smooth the convex curves.
It's harder to explain than to do. ;-)

H&Rs are very common (thus cheap), and much easier to tune and use than the
complex molders.  With a set of H&Rs you can produce most any molding, and
it's surprisingly easy.  I made hundreds of feet of molding for my old
house, from cornices to baseboards and everything in between, using only my
H&Rs.  At one point I had a slew of complex molding planes, but now I am
down to only a handful.  When I build my snipe bills this weekend, I may get
rid of the last few...

The particular profile you showed (quirked ogee and bevel) can be made with
only a handful of planes: a single pair of H&R for the cyma, a smaller round
for behind the bevel, and perhaps a snipe bill (depending on how deep the
quirk is).

Another option is to make the short trip west to Marion, Indiana, and take
one of Tod Herrli's plane making classes.  After a 2-day basic plane making
class, you would be able to make your own hollows and rounds (or complex
molding planes for that matter).  Anatol sells an outstanding videotape of
Tod's planemaking instructions for a very reasonable price if you'd like to
see what's involved.

> I've also been considering a #55 since I have a bunch of profiles to
> create.

There are a few fans of the #55 around here, but not many.  It has a
reputation as being a very finicky plane to use, and the lack of a mouth
means that it requires *very* straight grain to produce good results.  Plus,
for the typical price one of these goes for you can get one of Tony
Murland's harlequin H&R sets and still have enough left over for a pair of
snipe bills...

ralph (in Chicago now, but at Tod's this weekend!  Woohoo!)

> Jaime Metcher wrote:
> 
> I'll end with a question - how tuned are Tony Murland's sets?
> 

I bought a half set of H&R's and a handful of other woodies from Tony.
All were in as-found condition.  He hadn't cleaned or tuned them, which
I wouldn't expect or want.

H&R's are the easiest woodies to grind, except for the smallest hollows.

-- 
Scott Post  sepost@hotpop.com http://members.home.net/sepost

Hi Folks,

	Jaime shares with us that his #55(finicky way-cool iron
combo plane, Jeff) works better than his woodies.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Jaime Metcher wrote:

> At 18:04 13/02/02 -0600, Ralph Brendler wrote:
> >
> First off, listen to Ralph - he's forgotten more than I'll ever know.
>
> Having said that, I'll state that my #55 planes better in any grain than
>any woodie I have.  Cuts truer, tears out less, chokes less, cutters are
>in *much* better shape and easier to sharpen.

I can't say about the #55, but that was true of me and my 45 a number
of years ago.  I kept hacking away, and I am somewhat better at
using my limited set of wooden molders now.  All the problems
Jaime describes, I had.  Ralph still planes circles around me, but
I can now get a molding plane(or panel raiser, or wooden smoother)
to perform ok, still have trouble cross grain, but they were not
really supposed to be used that way, so it is not the planes
fault I am dumb.  Just took practice, and the willingness to
make some pieces that had molding that did not look very
professional.  Now, that, like sawing straight and chopping
straight, keeps getting easier.  I used to do things like hold
my finger over the side escapement and wonder why the plane
choked, but I have stopped doing most things of that
ilk.(Dawn breaks over my marblehead).  It helps to buy decent
planes also, I have never bought one where I had to do more than
minor reshaping of the iron.

>
> I'll end with a question - how tuned are Tony Murland's sets?
>

I bought a nice half set of skewed planes from him a while ago, and
they were great.  I doubt he touched them, but most were in
really nice shape.  A few reminded me of Scott Posts C&W smoother
in how crisp the details were.  I have used a couple without
even taking the iron out of the plane, and they were sharp like
the guy who owned them knew what he was doing.  I'd guess, having
only bought a couple things from him, that what he sells is as
tuned as the last guy who owned it left it...  It is really
nice to make a molding, and then be able to go in the opposite
direction over a short patch where there was some tearout with
a hollow or round, so I am a big fan(Thanks Ralph!).

Best regards, Mike Lindgren

All,

Thanks for your welcome and words of wisdom.  I've been to Tony 
Murland's site and have wanted to order one of everything.  I would also 
like to try making a plane(s).

It is pretty clear that I have a lot to learn and that I've come to the 
right place.

Thanks!
Bill Stephens

At 18:04 13/02/02 -0600, Ralph Brendler wrote:
>Bill Stephens writes:
>
>> I need to make some base board and a mantle to restore the "altered"
>> rooms. I'll be looking for a bunch of planes to reproduce this stuff.
>

>> I've also been considering a #55 since I have a bunch of profiles to
>> create.
>
>There are a few fans of the #55 around here, but not many. It has a
>reputation as being a very finicky plane to use, and the lack of a
>mouth means that it requires *very* straight grain to produce good
>results. Plus, for the typical price one of these goes for you can get
>one of Tony Murland's harlequin H&R sets and still have enough left
>over for a pair of snipe bills...
>

First off, listen to Ralph - he's forgotten more than I'll ever know.

Having said that, I'll state that my #55 planes better in any grain than
any woodie I have. Cuts truer, tears out less, chokes less, cutters are
in *much* better shape and easier to sharpen.

>From this you'll guess that my woodies are in terrible shape, and you'd
>be right. After many hours of probably misdirected effort, I have a
>grand total of two woodies (out of ~60) cutting well - one round, and
>one skew rabbett. My experience is:

1. matching the cutter profile to the sole (nearly all of my cutters are
   nicked or misshapen in some way) is an *very* finicky job. The
   precision required here is well in excess of that required for making
   joints. #55's lack of sole wins here.

2. reconditioning the bed is even trickier. #55's lack of bed wins here.

3. once all of that is done, choking is a major problem for all but the
   lightest cuts (and light cuts aren't even possible unless steps 1 & 2
   are well under control). #55's lack of throat wins here.

I would like nothing more than to have a shelf full of sweetly tuned
woodies, but I'm beginning to think that the only way this will happen
in this lifetime is if I buy them, or at least buy them in a *lot*
better condition than has been my lot so far. In the meantime, the #55
cuts lots of profiles in lots of wood for the overhead of just
sharpening up an iron.

I'll end with a question - how tuned are Tony Murland's sets?

Jaime Metcher

At 23:12 12/02/02 -0600, you wrote: 
>
>If a woodie needs significant bed work or the mouth has been opened up,
>don't even bother with it.



Hi Ralph,

Thanks for your words of wisdom. I'm encouraged to try again.

But how do you tell up front if your little hunk o' beech is a goner?
Maybe I'm talking about borderline cases here. Most of mine look to my
untutored eye as if they should work. Then they don't, and I'm stuck in
this loop between fiddling with the cutter, fiddling with the sole,
fiddling with the bed, and then testing the whole concoction...Problem
is, each test may involve
a) shaping and honing of the cutter right from the 80 grit grinder up
   to the 6000 grit waterstone. On a curved blade this seems to take me
   a long time
b) working of a profile in a test scrap right down to the full depth of
   the profile Apart from the high time factor, I don't have that much
   scrap! So - is it just a matter of sticking with the loop a few more
   times, or is the fact that I'm even in the loop a sign to bail out?

Anyway, I know it's probably just a matter of building up some
experience. At least I know it *can* be done. I'll keep your advice and
Mike Lindgren's heartening tale in mind. Maybe one day I'll be able to
get that #55 re-nickeled and just use it for a mantelpiece ornament.

Jaime