I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of.
Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would like to
know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt
I would like something with a tighter grain structure for this. Thanks
for any suggestions on this!

Spike Wood nut Sent from my kitchen counter-------------------------------------
-------------------------
----------

The iPad smell chucker is an evil thing. Substituting oh ice for
obvious? Wholly guacaamoley!, butt it let that go throu! Image for
make? Geeze!

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Spike  wrote:

> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
> with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
> ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out
> of. Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would
> like to know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh
> ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grain structure for
> this.> Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>> Spike
> > Wood nut>> Sent from my kitchen counter-------------------------------------
-------------------------
> ---------- OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of
> hand tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the
> history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and
> restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 19, 2011, at 16:17 , Spike wrote:

> The iPad smell chucker is an evil thing. Substituting oh ice for obvious?
> Wholly guacaamoley!, butt it let that go throu! Image for make? Geeze!

Gee, maybe the smell checker is trying to tell you something :)

Anyway, I've used steel wool in vinegar to ebonise butternut, and that
worked pretty well.  I've heard that you can use black tea to increase the
tannin content of woods like maple, then use the rusty water on it.  A few
links:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125207-Ebonizing-maple

In my own experiments, I found that shellac after ebonising with rusty
water seems to help fix it, and protect it from rubbing/scratching off.

-- 
Adam

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:

> > I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with an
 ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I thought 
that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems to me to be 
a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods ebonise the best. 
Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grai
n structure for this. 
> Thanks for any suggestions on this!

Oldmillrat to the rescue! I have ebonized many different kinds of wood while exp
erimenting with the old process described by Tage Frid a long time ago.

http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/jThompson/howTo/EbWood-jThompson/jThompson-EbWood
.asp

Black walnut is the easiest to ebonize, at least for me. It has lots of tannins 
in it to begin with. I also like it because eventual damage is not too noticeabl
e, and is easy to repair. Cherry also works quite well and has a closed grain st
ructure which you might like better.

A less difficult alternative is India Ink, as well as black shoe dye.

James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I forgot to mention that garnet shellac over the chemical ebonizing will warm th
e black a little. To my eye the black looks a little blue.

On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:

> 
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 16:17 , Spike wrote:
> 
>> The iPad smell chucker is an evil thing. Substituting oh ice for obvious?
>> Wholly guacaamoley!, butt it let that go throu! Image for make? Geeze!
> 
> Gee, maybe the smell checker is trying to tell you something :)
> 
> Anyway, I've used steel wool in vinegar to ebonise butternut, and that
> worked pretty well.  I've heard that you can use black tea to increase the
> tannin content of woods like maple, then use the rusty water on it.  A few
> links:
> 
> http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood
> 
> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125207-Ebonizing-maple
> 
> In my own experiments, I found that shellac after ebonising with rusty
> water seems to help fix it, and protect it from rubbing/scratching off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 19, 2011, at 16:52 , James Thompson wrote:

> > I forgot to mention that garnet shellac over the chemical ebonizing will war
m the black a little. To my eye the black looks a little blue.

Yup, saw exactly the same thing; it looks like a really deep blue in some
light.  I think I used amber shellac, since that's what I had mixed up.

I also noticed that some of my rusty vinegar mixtures produced a
darker color than others, so I'd guess that it's best to do it all
from one batch.

-- 
Adam

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would reinforce not to use oak, if your knife is carbon steel.
Oak and carbon steel is generally bad.
   Especially in any room with running water!

  I am not at liberty to divulge how come I know this.

    DOH !
     yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I watched David Marks ebonize some hard maple pretty effectively on his tv
show once.  He used something that appeared to be pretty evil and toxic to
do it, but can't remember what particular chemical coctail he used.

Doc
On Dec 19, 2011 6:10 PM, "Spike"  wrote:

> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with
> an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I
> thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems
> to me to be a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods
> ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like
> something with a tighter grain structure for this.
>  Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>
> Spike
>  Wood nut
>
> Sent from my kitchen
> > counter---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe soaking in Drano will ebonize wood.  I remember using that method
a few years back on some cherry.  Wood shrank about 1/3 it's exterior
dimensions.

T.Z.

On 12/19/11 7:16 PM, "John Holladay"  wrote:

> I watched David Marks ebonize some hard maple pretty effectively on his tv
> show once.  He used something that appeared to be pretty evil and toxic to
> do it, but can't remember what particular chemical coctail he used.
> 
> Doc
> On Dec 19, 2011 6:10 PM, "Spike"  wrote:
> 
>> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with
>> an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I
>> thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems
>> to me to be a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods
>> ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like
>> something with a tighter grain structure for this.
>>  Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>> 
>> Spike
>>  Wood nut
>> 
>> Sent from my kitchen
>> counter----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> 
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>> 
>> OldTools@r...
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having never done this before, but being interested in trying it
sometime, I did a little searching.

>From a totally novice point of view, this PopWood article on ebonizing
wood makes a lot of sense:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood

The author had the same experience with the blue color that Jim and
others have mentioned.  He says he finally got around it by applying a
quebracho bark tea, followed by iron-vinegar solution, followed by
more of the tea.  

Doing a little more searching, bark powder for making the tea can be
found at:

http://www.vandykestaxidermy.com/Search.aspx?k=quebracho

Chuck Myers

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/19/2011 5:50 PM, James Thompson wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:
>
>> >> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with 
an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I though
t that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems to me to b
e a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods ebonise the best
. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter gr
ain structure for this.
>> Thanks for any suggestions on this!
> > Oldmillrat to the rescue! I have ebonized many different kinds of wood while
 experimenting with the old process described by Tage Frid a long time ago.
>
> > http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/jThompson/howTo/EbWood-jThompson/jThompson-Eb
Wood.asp
>
> > Black walnut is the easiest to ebonize, at least for me. It has lots of tann
ins in it to begin with. I also like it because eventual damage is not too notic
eable, and is easy to repair. Cherry also works quite well and has a closed grai
n structure which you might like better.
>
> A less difficult alternative is India Ink, as well as black shoe dye.
>
>
> James Thompson, the Old Millrat in Riverside CA
>
>
If it's merely the black of ebony that you are seeking, any wood will 
do, but if you wish to emulate the appearance and feel of the wood, you 
will choose your wood carefully. Maple or walnut seem good choices, 
butternut not so much: it lacks mass and hardness. White oak can work 
well, but the colour of red oak will come through unless you cut it with 
a weak pre-stain of green aniline. You ight consider using a filler with 
such open-grained woods as these.

The method described by Thompson is cited by numerous authorities: it 
has credentials. I have used it successfully for touch-ups, but not for 
major work. I would avoid steel wool, due to the oil that's on it. The 
price of the tannic acid, which works as a mordant, seems pretty steep. 
A suggested alternative source for the tannin would be the husks (not 
the shells) of walnuts, and this might be a good season to lay your 
hands on some! Collect a bunch of husks and pour boiling water over 
them, let them steep for a few hours, then cool and remove the husks. 
Failure to remove them in good time can result in a mouldy mess: 
DAMHIKT! Then use the liquid as a described by James. At least that's 
how it works in theory. I have yet to use mine!

FWIW, I have a pdf I grabbed off the Shepherd Tools site some years ago 
describing their method of achieving the ebony look on Norris 
look-alikes using alcohol-soluble stain. Send me a note if you'd like a 
copy. If you use that method, take care of things in your immediate 
environs. This is a powerful stain, and a little goes a very long way: 
DAMHIKTE!

For my part, I would be tempted to use both for a deep stain - first a 
couple of applications of the alcohol aniline solution (for better 
penetration maybe, particularly on oak or similar woods), and then once 
dry, follow up with a couple of coats of the tannic mordant and rusty 
vinegar concoctions.

James' recommendation for a garnet shellac sealer seems a good one, 
which I will try next I have occasion. Maybe on some Perfect Handles! 
The garnet should cut the blue that makes these stains so cold.

Don

-- 
I hear, and I imagine; I see, and I understand; I do, and I remember forever. fr
om R.A. Salaman, Dictionary of Woodworking Tools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, James Thompson wrote:
>>> A less difficult alternative is India Ink, as well as black
>>> shoe dye.
>
I've wondered about this for a while. Even better for this than india
ink might be traditional Chinese brush painting ink, especially the
stuff that comes in hard sticks that you grind yourself and mix with
water. What's better about it than even india ink is that once dry on
paper, it is no longer soluble in water, and it has amazing powers of
light-fastness. Light won't fade it, water won't make it run. And so it
stains like nothing else. I remember my brush painting teacher grinding
ink, painting a picture on just blank newsprint, letting it dry, then
wadding it up in a ball and sticking it in a pan of water for 30
minutes. He pulled it out and smoothed out the paper and the ink was
still perfect. And there are still ink paintings in China where the ink
is as dark as the day it was painted 800 years ago. As a result, I've
wondered for quite a while about using it to stain wood black. I've used
it in a test on wood for writing my name to mark my pieces and it worked
quite well on hard maple without too much fuzzing of the lines, but if
you're staining, then that's not a problem.=20 Another good thing is
that you can control how grey or black the color is just by how much
water you use. I don't know as much about the colored ink sticks. We
only used the black ones in my Chinese Brush Painting class in college.
I'm just not too sure about how deep into the wood the stain will go. I
think I have an old stick around here somewhere. One of these days when
I find that "Spare Time" thingamabob that I've lost, I'll give it a
try.=20 There is a pre-mixed liquid formula they sell in Japan for
students, but I'm not sure that's exactly the same thing. A quick look
on the inter-tubes shows that there are three types of traditional ink
sticks, all gained from burning different substances in earthenware pots
and then gathering the soot: generic carbon pigment (from burning any
old thing, gathered from stove pipes), pine soot (from burning pine),
and then tung-oil soot from burning tung oil. "The virtue of the oil-
soot ink stick is that it produces subtle graduation of shade while the
strokes remain clearly defined. The pine-soot ink stick gives unglossy
brushwork and is commonly used for achieving absorbent textures. The
carbon pigment inksticks tend to blot on unsized rice paper or silk if
is used for tonal effect."

Some of these can run very high in price depending on age and grade,
but I can speak from experience that it doesn't take much to make a lot
of very black ink. Considering you're grinding the hard ink stick on a
fairly smooth "stone" you don't get a lot from grinding and then add a
fair bit of water. Something to think about. AAAndrew---------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------

>
>
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=162457&submit_-
> thread=1
>
> Along the way, various woods were mentioned, mainly with very tight
> =20 grain; holly, maple, pear (presumablty other fruit woods)
>
> BugBear
>
On reading:

"Ebonizing Wood =97 Apple, pear, and walnut woods, especially the fine-
grained sorts, may be satisfactorily ebonized by first boiling in a
glazed vessel, with water, 4 ounces of gall- nuts, 1 ounce of logwood
chips, 1/2 ounce of green vitriol, and 1/2, ounce of crystallized
verdigris, these being filtered while warm and the wood brushed a number
of times with the hot solution." What is gall nut? What kind of wood is
logwood? I have plenty of vitriol, but I use it against my neighbor -
mine is not green And all of my verdigris is artificial to begin with.
So where do I go from here?

Ed Minch

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gall nut: "Gall nuts=2C nutgalls or oak apples are a tannin-rich
growth on oak trees produced by an infection of the insect Cynips
gallae tinctoriae=2C used as a dye and a mordant. Commercial gall
nuts are harvested from the Gall Oak (Quercus lusitanica)=2C also
called Lusitanian Oak or Dyer=92s Oak=2C native to Morocco=2C
Portugal=2C and Spain."
- http://naturaldyeworkshop.com/2011/07/13/gall-nuts/

Logwood is=2C umm=2C logwood:
http://www.aurorasilk.com/natural_dyes/dyes/dye_logwood.html

Vitriol - "Any of various sulfates of metals=2C such as ferrous
sulfate=2C zinc sulfate=2C or copper sulfate." -
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitriol

Verdigris - "Verdigris is the common name for a green pigment obtained
through the application of acetic acid to copper plates[1] or the
natural patina formed when copper=2C brass or bronze is weathered and
exposed to air or seawater over a period of time. It is usually a basic
copper carbonate=2C but near the sea will be a basic copper chloride.[2]
If acetic acid is present at the time of weathering=2C it may consist of
copper(II) acetate." - Wikipedia

HTH=2C -T

> From: ruby@m... To: pwomack@p... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Best wood to
> ebonise Date: Tue=2C 20 Dec 2011 06:59:36 -0500
> CC: oldtools@r...
>> >
> >
> > http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=162457&submit_th-
> > read=1
> >
> > Along the way=2C various woods were mentioned=2C mainly with very
> > tight > > grain=3B holly=2C maple=2C pear (presumablty other fruit
> > woods)
> >
> > BugBear
> >
> On reading:
>> "Ebonizing Wood =97 Apple=2C pear=2C and walnut woods=2C
> especially the fine-grained sorts=2C may be satisfactorily ebonized
> by first boiling in a glazed vessel=2C with water=2C 4 ounces of gall-
> nuts=2C 1 ounce of logwood chips=2C 1/2 ounce of green vitriol=2C and
> 1/2=2C ounce of crystallized verdigris=2C these being filtered while
> warm and the wood brushed a number of times with the hot solution."
> What is gall nut? What kind of wood is logwood? I have plenty of
> vitriol=2C but I use it against my neighbor - mine is > not green And
> all of my verdigris is artificial to begin with. So where do I go
> from here?
>> Ed Minch
>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados=2C both collectors and users=2C to discuss the history=2C
> usage=2C value=2C location=2C availability=2C collectibility=2C and
> restoration of traditional handtools=2C especially woodworking tools.
>> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------

On 12/20/2011 4:49 AM, AAAndrew wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, James Thompson wrote:
>>
>> A less difficult alternative is India Ink, as well as black shoe dye.
>>
> > I've wondered about this for a while. Even better for this than india ink mi
ght be traditional Chinese brush painting ink, especially the stuff that comes i
n hard sticks that you grind yourself and mix with water. What's better about it
 than even india ink is that once dry on paper, it is no longer soluble in water
, and it has amazing powers of light-fastness. Light won't fade it, water won't 
make it run. And so it stains like nothing else. I remember my brush painting te
acher grinding ink, painting a picture on just blank newsprint, letting it dry, 
then wadding it up in a ball and sticking it in a pan of water for 30 minutes. H
e pulled it out and smoothed out the paper and the ink was still perfect. And th
ere are still ink paintings in China where the ink is as dark as the day it was 
painted 800 years ago.
>
> >   As a result, I've wondered for quite a while about using it to stain wood 
black. I've used it in a test on wood for writing my name to mark my pieces and 
it worked quite well on hard maple without too much fuzzing of the lines, but if
 you're staining, then that's not a problem.
>
> > Another good thing is that you can control how grey or black the color is ju
st by how much water you use. I don't know as much about the colored ink sticks.
 We only used the black ones in my Chinese Brush Painting class in college.
>
> > I'm just not too sure about how deep into the wood the stain will go. I thin
k I have an old stick around here somewhere. One of these days when I find that 
"Spare Time" thingamabob that I've lost, I'll give it a try.
>
> > There is a pre-mixed liquid formula they sell in Japan for students, but I'm
 not sure that's exactly the same thing.
>
> > A quick look on the inter-tubes shows that there are three types of traditio
nal ink sticks, all gained from burning different substances in earthenware pots
 and then gathering the soot: generic carbon pigment (from burning any old thing
, gathered from stove pipes), pine soot (from burning pine), and then tung-oil s
oot from burning tung oil.
>
> > "The virtue of the oil-soot ink stick is that it produces subtle graduation 
of shade while the strokes remain clearly defined. The pine-soot ink stick gives
 unglossy brushwork and is commonly used for achieving absorbent textures. The c
arbon pigment inksticks tend to blot on unsized rice paper or silk if is used fo
r tonal effect."
>
> > Some of these can run very high in price depending on age and grade, but I c
an speak from experience that it doesn't take much to make a lot of very black i
nk. Considering you're grinding the hard ink stick on a fairly smooth "stone" yo
u don't get a lot from grinding and then add a fair bit of water.
>
> Something to think about.
>
> > AAAndrew--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
This reminded me that I've read of lamp black, soot and charcoal being 
used as part of the ebonizing process - possibly as filler. Can't recall 
sources: somewhere in the mist...

Don

-- 
I hear, and I imagine; I see, and I understand; I do, and I remember forever. fr
om R.A. Salaman, Dictionary of Woodworking Tools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/20/2011 4:59 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=162457&submit_thre-
>> ad>> Along the way, various woods were mentioned, mainly with very
>> tight grain; holly, maple, pear (presumablty other fruit woods)
>>
>> BugBear
>>
> On reading:
>
> "Ebonizing Wood --- Apple, pear, and walnut woods, especially the fine-
> grained sorts, may be satisfactorily ebonized by first boiling in a
> glazed vessel, with water, 4 ounces of gall- nuts, 1 ounce of logwood
> chips, 1/2 ounce of green vitriol, and 1/2, ounce of crystallized
> verdigris, these being filtered while warm and the wood brushed a
> number of times with the hot solution." What is gall nut? What kind of
> wood is logwood? I have plenty of vitriol, but I use it against my
> neighbor - mine is not green And all of my verdigris is artificial to
> begin with. So where do I go from here?
>
> Ed Minch
Google & Wikipedia are your friends:

http://www.abbeycolor.com/logwood-extract.php
http://www.aurorasilk.com/natural_dyes/dyes/dye_logwood.html

Green vitriol is apparently iron sulfate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_sulfate

Verdigris you could probably make yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdigris

As for gall nuts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink

HTH Don

--
I hear, and I imagine; I see, and I understand; I do, and I remember
forever. from R.A. Salaman, Dictionary of Woodworking Tools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spike,

I am working on a chair in true galoot timeline fashion=A0(started
about=A05 years ago and still less than half way done).=A0 Anyway, it's
a copy of an ebony and ivory chair.=A0 Since both of those materials
would be prohibitively expensive, I opted for ebonized black walnut and
American holly.=A0 I played around with various formulas and ended up
going with a water based black aniline dye.=A0 It was the easiest to
apply and gave me the most consistent black=A0color while still showing
the grain.=A0 It was also very simple - just mix the powder=A0with
distilled=A0water.=A0 I tried several concerntrations until I came up
with the one I liked best.=A0

In the picture posted on GIC below, you can see three back slats which
have been ebonized and assembled.=A0 The surrounding chair parts are the
same walnut before being ebonized.

http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Itemid=2&pl-
ace=displayimage&album=208&pos=0=A0or

http://tinyurl.com/cm6xoxw

Best of luck, Joe

PS I did make one big batch (gallon) of ebonizing liquid so that I
   wouldnt' get any color differences due to different batches.=A0



----- Original Message ---- From: Spike  To:
OLDTOOLS porch  Sent: Mon, December 19, 2011 4:10:00 PM
Subject: [OldTools] Best wood to ebonise

I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of.
Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would like to
know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt
I would like something with a tighter grain structure for this.

Thanks for any suggestions on this!

Spike Wood nut

Sent from my kitchen counter----------------------------------------------------
------------
-------- OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand
tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ: http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/

OldTools@r...ell.edu
http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spike wrote:
> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
> with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
> ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out
> of. Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would
> like to know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh
> ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grain structure for
> this. Thanks for any suggestions on this!

I did some deep research on ebonising formulas, a while ago:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=162457&submit_thread
Along the way, various woods were mentioned, mainly with very tight
grain; holly, maple, pear (presumablty other fruit woods)

  BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

   I have a lovely selection of sizeable oak galls growing in the woods 
just outside my bathroom window. I could probably round up a couple 
bushels with little trouble.

  With some time and a rented cherry picker, I could get truckloads.

  Also, I have 2 dirty stovepipes available at a moments notice! No 
waiting!!  heh   I have already rinsed a little soot off my hands twice 
today, just feeding the woodstove.

    And if the demand is strong enough, I can get me a black top hat (I 
already have long brushes)
   and gather up soot by the ton in this valley!

  But you'll have to make it worth my while. heehehehehehe
     yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I wanted black 3/4 pillars for a window seat in my library, I chose
hard maple for its density and hardness. I took the easy way out and
used India ink. Two coats resulted in a very uniform black. I coated
with garnet shellac. Easy and effective.

Joe Parker Los Gatos, CA

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Joe Jerkins  wrote:
>
> Spike,
>
> I am working on a chair in true galoot timeline fashion=A0(started
> about=A05 years ago and still less than half way done).=A0 Anyway,
> it's a copy of an ebony and ivory chair.=A0 Since both of those
> materials would be prohibitively expensive, I opted for ebonized black
> walnut and American holly.=A0 I played around with various formulas
> and ended up going with a water based black aniline dye.=A0 It was the
> easiest to apply and gave me the most consistent black=A0color while
> still showing the grain.=A0 It was also very simple - just mix the
> powder=A0with distilled=A0water.=A0 I tried several concerntrations
> until I came up with the one I liked best.
>
> In the picture posted on GIC below, you can see three back slats which
> have been ebonized and assembled.=A0 The surrounding chair parts are
> the same walnut before being ebonized.
>
> http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_copperminevis&Itemid=2&-
> place=displayimage&album=208&pos=0=A0or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cm6xoxw
>
> Best of luck, Joe
>
> PS I did make one big batch (gallon) of ebonizing liquid so that I
>    wouldnt' get any color differences due to different batches.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

O Galoots:

A word of warning about ebonizing formulas based on ferrous sulfate (aka green v
itriol or copperas), on iron dissolved in vinegar, and on other iron compounds: 
they are all potentially destructive to the surface of the wood. If you have wor
ked salvaged wood with rusty nailholes in it, you will know that the iron-stain 
around the hole is often weak and crumbly. That's the kind of damage I'm talking
 about. Most of the time it won't matter if you are just applying a surface coat
ing, as in ebonizing. But the more coats you apply (trying for a darker effect) 
and the deeper the stain penetrates, the more chance there is that you will have
 long-term problems. I should add, I have used iron-vinegar stain a few times an
d have not (that's have not) had problems, and I plan to use it again some time;
 but I wouldn't want to use it where the wood is exposed to a lot of abrasion or
 scratching.

These formulae are all very closely related to the iron-gall ink that was used i
n Europe from the early middle ages until the middle 20th century, and in some c
ases until today. Iron-gall ink often "burns" through the paper (mostly cellulos
e, just like wood) and creates a stain on the reverse side of the page. The stai
ned area is weak, sometimes very weak, and sometimes the paper of a letter is ea
ten into lacework by the corrosion caused by the ink. The amount of damage is hi
ghly variable and depends on small details of the formula, how concentrated the 
ink was, how much was used (blots and splotches often burn through even when mos
t of the writing doesn't). 

Traditional iron-gall inks were almost transparent when written with, and develo
ped their color only after exposure to the air for a few days. Some old formulae
 added a blue dye or pigment to the ink so that you could see it while writing (
the original point of "blue-black" ink). If you use iron-based ebonizing formula
e, I would do a test panel (duh) and then wait a few days before assessing the r
esults; they may improve with a bit of time.

Verdigris, i.e. copper acetate, is even more corrosive to paper (therefore to wo
od) than iron-gall ink. In early printed maps and atlases it was often used for 
outlining the borders of countries; and you often find the paper broken on this 
line, sometimes with the countries falling out like a jigsaw puzzle.

Chinese and Japanese stick ink are basically combinations of lampblack (i.e. fin
ely-divided carbon) in a binder of hide glue. There is a huge variety in details
 and quality, but that's the fundamentals. India ink is (or at least used to be)
 the same componants with the addition of shellac or some other resin to make th
e ink waterproof, sold in a liquid form. Again, different brands of India ink sh
ow very different working properties, even two lines of ink from the same maker.
 Penetration is one of the ones most pertinent here; for decades I used ink from
 a quart bottle of Higgins' "American India Ink" which my mother bought in the e
arly 1960s, but I learned that I couldn't use it with some papers I liked becaus
e it feathered badly. I used other India inks, including other Higgins inks, on 
those papers without the feathering. For ebonizing, of course, feathering would 
be a good thing, a signal that the ink would penetrate better into the wood. In 
these
 inks the pigment is pure or almost pure, finely-divided, particles of carbon. I
ts as lightfast and non-reactive as you can get. I would guess that the basic is
sue is depth of penetration: the carbon particles are quite large by comparison,
 and may not be carried into the wood even as deeply as the water goes. And, sit
ting on the surface, the color is more likely to wear off with use.

If you wanted to experiment, you might try seeing if alcohol improves the penetr
ation of India ink or other stain. Either pre-wet the surface with the alcohol, 
or mix it 50/50 with the ink. Alcohol has lower surface tension than water and c
an penetrate deeper (at least into paper, which is where my experience is); howe
ver, once the alcohol is in, the water is no longer held out by surface tension,
 and can be led deeper in (at least into paper) than it would go on its own. Wor
th an experiment, anyway.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:

> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
> with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
> ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out
> of. Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would
> like to know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first oh
> ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grain structure for
> this.> Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>> Spike
> Wood nut>
 Wow! 21 responses so far! Is this a great list or what? I would like to
 thank everyone who has contributed to this, you guys are really great
 and I have a bunch of knowledge now that I didn't have before. I am
 going to use maple as I have a good supply of it. I am leaning really
 hard toward the ink or aniline dye route, with a garnet shellac finish.
 I'll do a little more research on the dye, I think. It may penetrate
 better than the ink if I'm understanding this properly.

Spike Cornelius PDX Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

any wood you please. There are aniline dies that do a fabulous job.
*Ebony Black(#327) - 1 oz. $7.49 *
*Black(#MCW52 ) - 1 oz. $7.20
**Nigrosine Black Bluish Conc.(#5791) - 1 oz. $7.49 * /*I
At http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
*/
On 12/19/2011 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:
> > I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with an
 ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I thought 
that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems to me to be 
a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods ebonise the best. 
Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grai
n structure for this.
>   Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>
> Spike
>   Wood nut
>
> > Sent from my kitchen counter------------------------------------------------
------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try the black analine dye on a piece of scrap first. My results with it have bee
n less than optimum on maple. It penetrates only a little and is easily damaged.

And be aware that using black dye over a near white wood is going to scream at y
ou when it gets scratched. That's why I recommended some nice dark black walnut.
 Small damage is less noticeable.

On Dec 20, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Spike Cornelius wrote:

> 
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:
> 
>> >> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made with 
an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I though
t that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems to me to b
e a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods ebonise the best
. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter gr
ain structure for this. 
>> Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>> 
>> Spike
>> Wood nut 
>> 
> 
> > Wow! 21 responses so far! Is this a great list or what? I would like to than
k everyone who has contributed to this, you guys are really great and I have a b
unch of knowledge now that I didn't have before.
> > I am going to use maple as I have a good supply of it. I am leaning really h
ard toward the ink or aniline dye route, with a garnet shellac finish. I'll do a
 little more research on the dye, I think. It may penetrate better than the ink 
if I'm understanding this properly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spike Cornelius
> PDX
>          Crazy for Shavings
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 20, 2011, at 5:09 PM, James Thompson wrote:

> Try the black analine dye on a piece of scrap first. My results with
> it have been less than optimum on maple. It penetrates only a little
> and is easily damaged.
>> And be aware that using black dye over a near white wood is going to
>> scream at you when it gets scratched. That's why I recommended some
>> nice dark black walnut. Small damage is less noticeable. On Dec 20,
>> 2011, at 4:24 PM, Spike Cornelius wrote:

 Yes, a test run will be done. I'm looking to maximize penetration so
 will see how that goes. I do have plenty of black walnut, so will look
 closer at that as well.

Spike Cornelius PDX Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

It works, but it has the reputation of not being light fast.

On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:

> I wonder if black leather dye would do the  trick, good old Tandy USMC 
> black?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if black leather dye would do the  trick, good old Tandy USMC 
black?

J~

John M. Johnston
There is  a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry

In a message  dated 12/19/2011 10:29:36 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
dkschwar@t...  writes:
FWIW, I have a pdf I grabbed off the Shepherd Tools site some years  ago 
describing their method of achieving the ebony look on Norris  
look-alikes using alcohol-soluble stain. Send me a note if you'd like a  
copy. If you use that method, take care of things in your immediate  
environs. This is a powerful stain, and a little goes a very long way:  
DAMHIKTE!  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

SNIP

I forgot to mention that garnet shellac over the chemical ebonizing will
warm the black a little. To my eye the black looks a little blue.

END SNIP

Jim:

I'm repairing an small old ebonized table that might actually be a candle
stand.  At some point, someone was a little vigorous and a bit chemically
inclined about the cleaning of it, with the result that the top has lighter
wood showing through.  I've worried about this for some time, as black is
not necessarily "black," if you follow me, so a finish repair could wind up
looking like a depressed parti-color.

Any suggestions?

J

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:46 PM, James Thompson wrote:

> It works, but it has the reputation of not being light fast.
>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:
>>> I wonder if black leather dye would do the trick, good old Tandy
>>> USMC>> black?
>
 Well, I am about to go with a white sheath for the knife with the black
 handle. Contrast,ya know.

Spike--------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Be warned, aniline dyes will cheerfully and instantly dye anything they
touch, even days or sometimes weeks later, a very permanent black (or
whatever, I presume, but I only have experience with the black). I dyed
some gloves black with it once and years later they were still bleeding
a bit of it. So use a light touch.

Graham

On Dec 20, 2011, at 16:36, "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq."
 wrote:

> any wood you please. There are aniline dies that do a fabulous
> job. *Ebony Black(#327) - 1 oz. $7.49 * *Black(#MCW52 ) - 1 oz.
> $7.20 **Nigrosine Black Bluish Conc.(#5791) - 1 oz. $7.49 * /*I
> At http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com */ On 12/19/2011 4:10 PM,
> Spike wrote:
>> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made
>> with an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual
>> ebony, so I thought that I would ebonise the wood that image it out
>> of. Ebonising seems to me to be a logical approach here, but I would
>> like to know which woods ebonise the best. Oak is the obvious first
>> oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter grain structure
>> for this. Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>>>> Spike
>>  Wood nut
>>>> >>>> Sent from my kitchen counter------------------------------------------
-----------------
>>>> -------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
>> usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration
>> of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>>>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/24/2011 11:33 PM, Graham Hughes wrote:
> > Be warned, aniline dyes will cheerfully and instantly dye anything they touc
h, even days or sometimes weeks later, a very permanent black (or whatever, I pr
esume, but I only have experience with the black).  I dyed some gloves black wit
h it once and years later they were still bleeding a bit of it.  So use a light 
touch.
>
> Graham
>
This is one of the reasons I advocate multiple coats of very dilute 
aniline water-soluble dye rather than a single coat - it's less messy. 
Not to mention that you can sneak up on a colour/tone by degrees, 
adjusting the tint as you see fit. It's much harder to adjust a colour 
that didn't come out right if it was applied at full strength. The 
alcohol-soluble version is even more difficult to work with, because the 
solvent evaporates so quickly.
FWIW
Don

-- 
I hear, and I imagine; I see, and I understand; I do, and I remember forever. fr
om R.A. Salaman, Dictionary of Woodworking Tools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would add a little comment... Any analine dye will get on your hands, and not 
come off. But you can use 5% hypochlorite bleach, Clorox for one, and it will co
me right off. It is wise to use rubber gloves, but I always think, well I'm only
 going to do a little....

On Dec 24, 2011, at 10:33 PM, Graham Hughes wrote:

> > Be warned, aniline dyes will cheerfully and instantly dye anything they touc
h, even days or sometimes weeks later, a very permanent black (or whatever, I pr
esume, but I only have experience with the black).  I dyed some gloves black wit
h it once and years later they were still bleeding a bit of it.  So use a light 
touch.
> 
> Graham
> 
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 16:36, "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq."  wrote:
> 
>> any wood you please. There are aniline dies that do a fabulous job.
>> *Ebony Black(#327) - 1 oz. $7.49 *
>> *Black(#MCW52 ) - 1 oz. $7.20
>> **Nigrosine Black Bluish Conc.(#5791) - 1 oz. $7.49 * /*I
>> At http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
>> */
>> On 12/19/2011 4:10 PM, Spike wrote:
>>> >>> I am about to make a wooden "sheath" for a kitchen knife that I made wit
h an ebony handle, and I am of course to "frugal" to use actual ebony, so I thou
ght that I would ebonise the wood that image it out of. Ebonising seems to me to
 be a logical approach here, but I would like to know which woods ebonise the be
st. Oak is the obvious first oh ice, butt I would like something with a tighter 
grain structure for this.
>>> Thanks for any suggestions on this!
>>> 
>>> Spike
>>> Wood nut
>>> 
>>> >>> Sent from my kitchen counter--------------------------------------------
----------------------------
>>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>> 
>>> To change your subscription options:
>>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>> 
>>> To read the FAQ:
>>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>>> 
>>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> OldTools@r...
>>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>> 
>>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> 
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>> 
>> OldTools@r...
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Odd...  I find that analine dyes, when diluted do not increase color when repeat
edly applied. The color seems to stay the same for me. I have to alter the stren
gth to get a darker color. But maybe it's just me.

On Dec 24, 2011, at 11:54 PM, Don Schwartz wrote:

> On 12/24/2011 11:33 PM, Graham Hughes wrote:
>> >> Be warned, aniline dyes will cheerfully and instantly dye anything they to
uch, even days or sometimes weeks later, a very permanent black (or whatever, I 
presume, but I only have experience with the black).  I dyed some gloves black w
ith it once and years later they were still bleeding a bit of it.  So use a ligh
t touch.
>> 
>> Graham
>> 
> > This is one of the reasons I advocate multiple coats of very dilute aniline 
water-soluble dye rather than a single coat - it's less messy. Not to mention th
at you can sneak up on a colour/tone by degrees, adjusting the tint as you see f
it. It's much harder to adjust a colour that didn't come out right if it was app
lied at full strength. The alcohol-soluble version is even more difficult to wor
k with, because the solvent evaporates so quickly.
> FWIW
> Don
> 
> -
------------------------------------------------------------------------