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207161 | Bill Kasper <dragonlist@u...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
there was a discussion of holdfasts a while back in, i believe, woodworking magazine. the cast iron ones were distinctly NOT recommended. i believe our own phil koontz's versions were given plaudits. the other holdfasts recommended were all wrought iron. bill felton, ca On Aug 12, 2010, at 3:59 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > > They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast > iron is suitable? > > Don > > -- > "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may > learn how to do it." -Pablo Picasso > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207162 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
I have one similar to this, a jorgenson, as I was looking for a shorter one, so I don't hit my drawers as Phil intimated a few hours back. Not my favorite, it doesn't work in most of my dog holes, I have to hit it really hard to get it to engage in the ones it does work in http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/smalltraditionalbenchholddown.aspx I have one of these I bought after the failure of the other one. Cut the stem shorter, works a charm over the drawers. I plan to buy more, as they work well. Not as cheap as yours or the jorgy, but the cost of frustration is very high. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code= toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLDFAST.XX&Category_Code=&Search=holdfast Don Schwartz wrote: > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > -- Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA, cleaning the shop at night in advance of a certain annua l tradition happening in Sept. Pharmaceutical and Packaging Engineering eppler.kirk@g... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207159 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2010‑08‑12 | cast iron holdfast |
Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron is suitable? Don -- "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." -Pablo Picasso ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207160 | nicknaylo@a... | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
I had a couple of cast iron hold fast experiences with some Highlandhardware versions a good decade or so ago. 1, maybe two hits beforethey snap. You get what you pay for. Michael-Bay Area Galoot. Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm=C2=A0 =C2=A0 They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast ironis suitable?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Don=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207168 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
On Aug 12, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > Hell no, it is not suitable. That isn't a holdfast, it is a holdfast- shaped-object. Worst woodworking money I ever spent. Any store selling one should be ashamed of themselves. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207170 | "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." <rohrabacher@e...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Cast Iron has a really lousy modulus of elasticity. Part and parcel of the function of such a device is to use it's inherent spring tension (modulus of elasticity) pushing against the forces you pound into it when you lock the sucker down. Cast Iron will reflect a greater level of hysteresis and experience a much earlier failure point. How much force will be required to break it? I don't know, there are formula you can invoke for that. Anyway I'd prefer a different form of steel. nicknaylo@a... wrote: > I had a couple of cast iron hold fast experiences with some Highland > hardware versions a good decade or so ago. 1, maybe two hits before > they snap. You get what you pay for. > > Michael-Bay Area Galoot. > > > > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > > They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron > is suitable? > > Don > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207172 | <roygriggs@v...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
GG, Can't recommend Phil's (and Jake by association) holdfasts enough...the use of h oldfasts has changed the way I do a lot of things; they give me a lot more latit ude in how I hold my work. There are other makers of good holdfasts. I just can't remember who they are! Roy Griggs roygriggs@w... www.shavingsandsawdust.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207177 | thhollow <thholloway@u...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
On Aug 12, 2010, at 8:40 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > There are others on the list that are selling them as well (or at > least their son, I believe). Since the topic has come up, again, here is a refresher for those who were around here in the early two thousands, or new news for more recent members: There should be three pics in this GIC album: <http://galootcentral.com/index.php?option=com_coppe- rminevis&Itemid=2&place=thumbnails&album=105> or <http://tinyurl.com/22ktry9> that show me and my son Tim, and some of the 40plus holdfasts Tim made and we sold via this list back in '02 or thereabouts. (If GIC slips away from these links, search for the album on my username there, Tom11.) They are patterned after the HF I bought, still warm from the forge, from Brian Emery, at the MWTCA regional meet at Hancock Shaker Village back in the summer of '96. These are made from 3/4" cold rolled mild steel rod, and work well in (nominal) 3/4" benchtop holes. As Phil suggested, it takes a benchtop about 2" or more thick to grab them. If you use Veritas 3/4" brass bench dogs or pups in round vice dog holes, those same holes serve to secure these holdfasts. Since that time Tim has wandered fairly deeply into other pursuits (environmental surveys, SCUBA), but is now in the process of putting a metal shop back together at his place in the woods of southern Oregon, and there is some possibility that he could get back into holdfasts and similar forged objects. Tom Holloway, holding fast ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207175 | Matthew Groves <matthew.groves@u...> | 2010‑08‑12 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
I think anyone wanting to purchase holdfasts cannot go wrong with a Phil or Jake made model. There are others on the list that are selling them as well (or at least their son, I believe). I bought mine in the Joe Duclos era of the porch. Let the accurate word ring out, however, that these are some of the easiest projects for the beginning blacksmith or tinkerer. Find some mild steel rod. Heat it. It's not a complex shape to bend. Done. And oh what a feeling. Some people are captivated by tropical fish or the babbling of a fountain. Me? I could pound and release holdfasts all day long. Never gets old. Nearly Magical. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO-------------------------------------------------- ------------ ---------- |
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207176 | "James Cook" <jim-cook@c...> | 2010‑08‑13 | RE: cast iron holdfast |
This is actually a delayed gloat, delayed by a year. I bought two of Jakes holdfasts from Phil a couple of years ago, and have been quite happy with them, even using them on a bench made of "white wood" from the borg. The leaf shape at the end that contacts the wood you're holding is very organic and distinctive. Last year at the LFOD auction in Avoca, I won a box lot (among many other things) for really cheap, $20 as I recall. When I got everything home, and was looking through it all, I noticed a familiar leaf shape, and discovered I had not one, not two, but three of Jake's holdfasts that hadn't been noticed by all the other bidders and were able to come home with me. I've even had the opportunity to use all five of these at once. You can never have too many of these holdfasts. Jim in Newton -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Matthew Groves Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:40 PM To: oldtools oldtools Subject: Re: [OldTools] cast iron holdfast I think anyone wanting to purchase holdfasts cannot go wrong with a Phil or Jake made model. There are others on the list that are selling them as well (or at least their son, I believe). I bought mine in the Joe Duclos era of the porch. Let the accurate word ring out, however, that these are some of the easiest projects for the beginning blacksmith or tinkerer. Find some mild steel rod. Heat it. It's not a complex shape to bend. Done. And oh what a feeling. Some people are captivated by tropical fish or the babbling of a fountain. Me? I could pound and release holdfasts all day long. Never gets old. Nearly Magical. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207178 | "Chuck Myers" <Galoot@I...> | 2010‑08‑13 | RE: cast iron holdfast |
> I have one similar to this, a jorgenson, as I was looking for a shorter > one, so I don't hit my drawers as Phil intimated a few hours back. It's a simple matter to make holdfasts shorter. All you need is a hacksaw and a little elbow grease. I have three of Phil's holdfasts, viewable here in their designated storage spot on my bench: http://tinyurl.com/2b38j87 The top is hard maple, a fraction over 4" thick I designed my bench with holdfasts in mind, using risers to create open space between the top and cabinet. The top overhangs the front of the cabinet by 4 inches, so clearance under the front dog holes isn't a problem. When I got the holdfasts, I found that they were too long to fit properly in the holes that were farther back. I cut one off, filed the cutoff area smooth, and used a torch to create the same oxide coating that covered the rest of it. Now, several years later, one shorter holdfast has been all I needed for the work I've done with my particular bench design. That might not/probably won't be the case with a different design. Chuck Myers, up way too late in Western PA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207184 | Charlie Driggs <cdinde@v...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron is suitable? They were so inexpensive, I bought four of them years ago. Two broke within a few hours of use and were replaced 'free'. A replacement broke almost immediately. Then I tried a steel one, and now have five of those. Recommendation: when the cast iron ones break, nothing goes flying across the room or at you. The horizontal leg just falls off. Safe enough that I let my little grandsons use the ones I have left to hold pieces of scrap wood they beat on with 4-6 oz. ball pein hammers. Gets them tired and they go to sleep more easily. Charlie Driggs ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207188 | "Bill Taggart" <w.taggart@v...> | 2010‑08‑13 | RE: cast iron holdfast |
::-----Original Message----- ::From: oldtools-bounces@r... ::[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of ::Don Schwartz ::Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:59 PM ::To: galoots list serv ::Subject: [OldTools] cast iron holdfast :: ::Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? :: ::http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm Cast iron? For something that you need to be able to whang on with a mallet to make it grab? And holdfasts function by having a little bit of springiness in them - i.e., a modicum of flex. Something for which cast iron is not well-known. In other words, in answer to your question - no freakin' way. You want steel. It doesn't even need to be spring steel - I have a few made of plain old hot-rolled mild steel that work perfectly. But I could see that steel with a little spring to it would help, as they would be tougher and have that little bit of springiness you're looking for. Two of them I forged out of old gate pins - those L-shaped pins you use to lock a gate; they typically are mounted vertically and go down into a piece of pipe in the ground. The holdfasts I made are kinda ugly, but man, they work like hell. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207195 | Bill Kasper <dragonlist@u...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
amen to that. if i can make one, anyone can. and i did. a word to the new blacksmiths, though: don't leave your mild steel rod in the heat too long or it comes out looking like a cheesestick nibbled by rats. apparently heating beyond a certain point effects the same thing as superfast rusting. right, tom? bill felton, ca On Aug 12, 2010, at 8:40 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > Let the accurate word ring out, however, that these are some of the > easiest projects for the beginning blacksmith or tinkerer. Find some > mild steel rod. Heat it. It's not a complex shape to bend. Done. > > And oh what a feeling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207213 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Thanks. Yes, that's what I've been thinking. I'm tired of struggling with clamps, screws and such to hold materials in place on the bench so I can work on them, and holdfasts seem to me to be the most elegant and versatile solution. I used my Record clamp-adapter the other day, and both screws and F-clamps today to hold materials so I could get something done. They worked well enough, but the setup and takedown is wasted effort, and the result no better than what I'd expect from a decent holdfast. They're an example of what I call an appropriate technology. I like the greater reach of the LV offering http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31149&cat=1,41637 http://tinyurl.com/2cb5xsw but they're not inexpensive, and I'm not sure that with a screwdown approach, they'll be as quick & convenient as simpler designs. I'm impressed by Phil's artfulness on a fundamentally simple object http://www.galenavillageblacksmith.com/may03.html http://tinyurl.com/ax5hw but the eye candy factor carries a substantial cost premium. And I like the idea of making my own, but I'm not really equipped for that, and I don't need another hobby! Today I'm thinking I'd much rather buy a pair of those Grammercy holdfasts and keep the extra cash for something else. If I like them well enough, I can imagine buying another pair later. I only wish I'd ordered them a couple or three weeks ago! Once again thanks to all who offered opinions and advice. Don Calgary "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." -Pablo Picasso On 8/13/2010 3:05 PM, Bill Ghio wrote: > > While not as inexpensive as the one you posed your question about, these oug ht to work and are still way less expensive than Phil's. > > http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-HOLDFAST.XX > > Bill > > On Aug 12, 2010, at 7:59 PM, Bill Ghio wrote: > > >> >> Ditto re Phil's holdfasts. Pricy but you won't regret it. I had another bl acksmith made one that I sold after using Phil's. I have used a set from another blacksmith who got real pissy when I told her what was wrong w/ hers (i.e., not lik Phil's). But she made the changes and they were vastly improved. Gary Caron (gary.j.caron@h...) doesn't post a lot but has a forge and a great design for h oldfasts. I have two of his design that I was fortunate enough to make on his fo rge and bending forms at a Galoot gathering and they are as good as Phil's. You might ask him if he is making any. >> >> Bill >> >> >> On Aug 12, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: >> >> >>> Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? >>> >>> http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm >>> >>> >>> They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron is suitable? >>> >>> Don >>> >>> -- >>> >>> "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn ho w to do it." -Pablo Picasso >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool >>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, >>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of >>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. >>> >>> To change your subscription options: >>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools >>> >>> To read the FAQ: >>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html >>> >>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ >>> >>> OldTools@r... >>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools >>> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207216 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
That's what SWMBO and I keep saying! Don Calgary, where it's currently 16 deg. C ( that's 60 deg F! ). "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." -Pablo Picasso On 8/13/2010 5:15 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > You're in the wrong place, bub. > > Matthew > > > On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > > >> and I don't need another hobby >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > OldTools@r... > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207214 | Matthew Groves <matthew.groves@u...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
You're in the wrong place, bub. Matthew On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > and I don't need another hobby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207219 | Chris Scholz <chris@g...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Don't disagree with you Cliff but would argue with yield strength. Cast iron holdfast == bad idea (except it says malleable cast iron of course). Anybody ever dropped a Stanley plane on a concrete floor? (BTW, modulus of elasticity of cast iron is just about half that of steel, so it is really not that lousy). Chris On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 21:30 -0700, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. wrote: > Cast Iron has a really lousy modulus of elasticity. > Part and parcel of the function of such a device is to use it's > inherent spring tension (modulus of elasticity) pushing against the > forces you pound into it when you lock the sucker down. > Cast Iron will reflect a greater level of hysteresis and experience a > much earlier failure point. > How much force will be required to break it? > I don't know, there are formula you can invoke for that. > Anyway I'd prefer a different form of steel. > > > nicknaylo@a... wrote: > > I had a couple of cast iron hold fast experiences with some Highland > > hardware versions a good decade or so ago. 1, maybe two hits before > > they snap. You get what you pay for. > > > > Michael-Bay Area Galoot. > > > > > > > > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > > > > They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron > > is suitable? > > > > Don > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > > > To change your subscription options: > > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > > > To read the FAQ: > > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ > > > > OldTools@r... > > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > > > > > -- Chris Scholz |
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207221 | Tom Price <tomprice03@g...> | 2010‑08‑13 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
On 8/12/10 6:59 PM, Don Schwartz wrote: > Can anyone recommend these holdfasts ? > > http://www.woodzone.com/woodwork/HT/207370.htm > > They seem remarkably inexpensive, but I'm wondering whether cast iron > is suitable? > > Don > If they are cast iron, no. If they are ductile iron, they will work fine. I broke my cast iron versions long ago and bought a couple of ductile iron holdfasts at Woodcraft. They have worked well. **************************** Tom Price (tomprice03@g...) Brakes For Rust The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207244 | "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." <rohrabacher@e...> | 2010‑08‑14 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
for heavens sake cast iron is the wrong material for a tool that must flex in order to do its job GOOGLE "Modulus of Elasticity" +"Cast Iron" Then do the math Make your own from any hot or cold roll bar stock. Get some 1" ( 20 mm or so) on the Flea Bay. Heat one brilliant cherry red end and pound the living Be-Geebus outta it with a huge hammer while holding the end of the bar stock firmly on on a huge hunk of steel or cast iron ( RR track sections work great as anvils). Repeat till you have a nice flat end. It'll take an hour or two if you got a crappy heat source. Less if you got a good 'un. Then heat (to a nice cnerry red) some part of it about 4 - 6 inches in from that flattened end you pounded out and bend it in a right angle. That's it~!! You just made a holdfast. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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207258 | Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> | 2010‑08‑15 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
FWIW. I have tried to use 1" steel for holdfasts, and it's much easier to use 3/4". The hammer effort involved in working heavy steel is proportional to the square of the diameter, which means you have to hit a 1" bar twice as many times as a 3/4" bar to make the same shape. 11/16" steel is something that Jake and I buy and happily pay air freight to get here to waythehellandbeyond to make holdfasts. Low carbon steel is better than spring steel. Trust me on this. Otherwise, I agree with every word. Anyone can make a holdfast. All you need is a fire, a hammer, and a vise. If you don't have a hammer, a rock will probably do the job. Also, I recommend at least 6-1/2" for the bent-over part of the holdfast. More is better. It's a matter of how the clamping magic works. I don't really understand why, but that's the answer. The easiest way to bend stuff is to heat the place you want to bend, put it in a vise with the hot spot just outside the vise jaws, then grab it with a wrench and pull the end toward you. PK Who has made a few of the damned things. On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. |
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207280 | Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> | 2010‑08‑15 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Hi Cliff-- Please accept my apology for any rudeness in that note. I woke up this morning to discover that my evil twin got drunk on homebrew and posted notes on my computer last night. I will have a talk with him. PK On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. |
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207259 | "John Manners" <jmanners@p...> | 2010‑08‑15 | Re: cast iron holdfast |
Bill Kasper wrote: > amen to that. if i can make one, anyone can. and i did. a word to > the new blacksmiths, though: don't leave your mild steel rod in the > heat too long or it comes out looking like a cheesestick nibbled by > rats. apparently heating beyond a certain point effects the same > thing as superfast rusting. right, tom? > > bill > felton, ca > > On Aug 12, 2010, at 8:40 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > >> Let the accurate word ring out, however, that these are some of the >> easiest projects for the beginning blacksmith or tinkerer. Find some >> mild steel rod. Heat it. It's not a complex shape to bend. Done. I use an 18" length of 3/4" mild steel reinforcing rod. No need for heat. I cold-flatten one end with a 14 lb sledge on a piece of railway rail. Lighter hammer, more hits. Put a hacksaw cut in the flattened piece about half way through and just where the rod starts to turn from round to flat. Use, as a form, a piece of 3" x 2" hardwood in the vice with two large woodscrews set in it with their shanks protruding and about 7" apart. Catch the flattened end against one screw-shank and bend the rod around the other screw using a length of pipe on the "tail" of the rod. Then cold-hammer back the flat piece to the correct attitude along the crease made by the saw-cut. File the sole of the foot smooth and then, as the Great Philosophical Botanist would say, "Bob's yer peduncle". Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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