Hello again fine Galoots,
      Last month I was digging through a box in the basement
of the local antique store and dug out 6 rusty chisels.
Now, I read your warnings to me back in January about not
buying broken tools when there are plenty of complete ones
to purchase, but at a buck apiece, I wanted to try and make
them useful again.
     4 of them are probably made by the same company, as the
imprint on them is a rectangle with (just wildly guessing)
T. Weatherby
Warranted
stamped inside the rectangle.
1.     Could you please tell me who is the mfgr of these and if any
web pages exist for my perusal?
     A couple of the chisels had their ends broken, it took me
an hour on Saturday (using an *l*ctr*c grinder) to put a bevel on
the stubs.  Checking the bevels when I was finished put them
between the 25 and 30 degree marks on the guage.
2.     What would be the "correct" bevel?  The others may not be
of any help as they've all been reground in the past.
     That evening I put a 3M (soft?) abrasive wheel in an *l*ctr*c
drill and rubbed most of the rust off, being more gentle around the 
imprints.
     The other 2 chisels are a Buck Bros, and an Everkeen.
     (web pages?)

     Most need their handles replaced.  I'm thinking of maybe making
my own, but it may be better if there are pre-made replacements.
3.   Are pre-made handles available?  Where?

I'm not looking for antique value(yeah,right!) just reviving some chisels.

Thank you for your time
(as this Normite/Newbie goes back across the street to watch you
all on the porch through my binoculars).

Ren
dona nobis pacem

Hi Ron & All,

Ron asked about some chisels he thinks are marked T. Weatherby. The mark
is probably T. Witherby or T.H . Witherby. Thomas H. Witherby made tools
under his own name in Millbury, MA, -1849-1850-. He is assumed to have
been succeeded by the Witherby Tool Co. which worked in Millbury and
Winsted, CT, -1868-. They in turn were succeeded by the Winsted Edge
Tool Works which worked in Winsted ca. 1890. The Winsted Edge Tool Works
is known to have marked tools T.H. WITHERBY; it is not certain whether
the Witherby Tool Co. did or not. It is more likely that Ron's chisels
are from the 1890s or so than from ca. 1850.

Ron also asked about Buck Bros. and Everkeen chisels. Buck Bros. worked
1853-1972- in Worcester and Millbury, MA, so it's hard to say how old
that chisel might be. I can't place the Everkeen, but I'd guess that's a
post-1900 maker or hardware company brand name.

Best Wishes,
Bob

Hi Ren and Folks,

	No expert on bevel angles here, couldn't even tell you what
the angles on mine are, as they are all done by hand and never
measured.  That said, I have rescued ~50 chisels and gouges in
the last ten years for personal users, so still have some
suggestions for Ren.
	Witherby is a fine maker, I have several of these, and
my luck with them has been good.  If you have some kind of lathe,
making handles is a fun place to start turning, and if you are
already good at it, they can be turned out amazingly quickly(I am
the worst turner I know...)  Second is that I actually prefer
to make handles for the socketed chisels more than the tanged
ones.  I have problems with tanged ones in getting the tang
taper right, and getting everything to line up the way I want.
With socketed ones I measure the depth of the socket and its
inner diameter at the greatest, and turn a taper that looks
about right to me.  Then I leave the handle in the lathe and
do a test fit.  I just put the chisel loosely on the handle
and wiggle it and rotate a bit to find where it is tight and
loose.  The rust on the inside leaves good marks on the wood
where you should remove material.  When I am close to having
a snug fit I work with a file and the lathe turning slowly(the
only way mine turns in any case).  When I am happy I cut the handle
blank off, turn it around and clean up the part where your hand hits,
finish sand a bit, and tap it on the chisel.  It is amazing how well they
stay on.  I usually make the handles so the taper extends between
1/16'-1/8" beyond the shoulder of the chisel socket.  Last year
I made a set of about a dozen in two weekend afternoons, so it
is not real time consuming.  Another upside is you get to use
whatever wood you want, and handles don't use too much, so it
can be really nice wood.
	At that point I am ready to sharpen them, and here I
offer another suggestion.  That is - set the bevel angle according
to what type of chisel you have, and what you want to use it
for.  I have an old  1 3/4" Sorby bevel edge paring chisel that
is very thin, and I have a quite shallow bevel on it.  It is
marvelous for razor sharp cutting, and that handle I put on it
has not seen a mallet since I first tapped it on.  The end grain
just leaps off the wood in fright when it sees that edge coming.
	At the other end of the spectrum(excluding mortice chisels),
I have a 1 3/4" socketed Witherby firmer that is massive, and has a
large rosewood handle that loves the mallet.  Don't know the
exact angle, but I would guess the bevel angle is 10 degrees
more on it than the Sorby, and I use it for different work.
	If your Witherby's are all firmers, and I was doing it, I
would shoot more towards 30 degrees for a bevel angle.  If they are
fine, bevel edged paring chisels, go somewhat shallower, and remember
to treat them more gently.  Of course you need both kinds, as well as
a set of mortice chisels, and it is nice to have some butt
chisels as well, then there are the specials that you will grind
at odd angles for dovetails, etc., - the SGH is here for you...
	Anyway, that is what I do, there are lots of other
ways to rehab chisels that also work well for people.  Hope it
helps.

Best regards, Mike Lindgren

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Ren Tescher wrote:

> Hello again fine Galoots,
>       Last month I was digging through a box in the basement
> of the local antique store and dug out 6 rusty chisels.
>      A couple of the chisels had their ends broken, it took me
> an hour on Saturday (using an *l*ctr*c grinder) to put a bevel on
> the stubs.  Checking the bevels when I was finished put them
> between the 25 and 30 degree marks on the guage.
> 2.     What would be the "correct" bevel?  The others may not be
> of any help as they've all been reground in the past.
>
>      Most need their handles replaced.  I'm thinking of maybe making
> my own, but it may be better if there are pre-made replacements.
> 3.   Are pre-made handles available?  Where?
>
> I'm not looking for antique value(yeah,right!) just reviving some chisels.
>

Michael Lindgren wrote: (clip)  Then I leave the handle in the lathe
and do a test fit.  I just put the chisel loosely on the handle and wiggle
it and rotate a bit to find where it is tigh loose.  The rust on the inside
leaves good marks on the wood where you should remove material.  When I am
close to having a snug fit I work with a file and the lathe turning
slowly(the only way mine turns in any case).  When I am happy I cut the
handle blank off, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are a few ways to fit the taper to the socket.  One way I would like
to mention is to hold the chisel in your hand, and with the wood spinning in
the lathe, press it gently onto the taper, until you see smoke.  Then take a
light cut to remove the blackened wood, and press it on for another try.  In
a few cycles, you can produce an excellent fit.

Of course, the lathe should be steam-powered, or water powered, or else it
needs to be a pole lathe.  Or, you could do what I do, and lie a little. :-)

In a few cycles, you can produce an excellent fit.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
 OK, you have the proto chisel handle in the lathe between centers. How do
you fit the chisel on the taper to smoke 'er on?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Several people asked essentially this same question.  If you know in advance
you're going to be doing this "smoking" technique, drive the wooden blank
with a chuck, or use a drilled wooden block on a faceplate as a "jam chuck."
It's fine to use a live center in the tailstock, but when you are ready for
the fitting/smoking part, pull the tailstock back.  If you were doing a
really long handle, like a lathe tool handle, or maybe a pruning shear
handle, then a steady-rest might be necessary.

The smoking technique would be a good way to seat the blank in a block of
scrapwood on a faceplate to hold it on the spindle.  If you are going to do
this, it's good to make a tapered fit, so as you remove material to true it
up, you go deeper into the hole, but don't wind up with a loose fit.

And then, if it does come out loose for some reason, CA glue is the
cure-all.

 Michael Lindgren wrote:

>(clip)  Then I leave the handle in the lathe
> and do a test fit.  I just put the chisel loosely on the handle and wiggle
> it and rotate a bit to find where it is tigh loose.  The rust on the inside
> leaves good marks on the wood where you should remove material.  When I am
> close to having a snug fit I work with a file and the lathe turning
> slowly(the only way mine turns in any case).  When I am happy I cut the
> handle blank off, (clip)

Leo followed up with:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> There are a few ways to fit the taper to the socket.  One way I would like
> to mention is to hold the chisel in your hand, and with the wood spinning in
> the lathe, press it gently onto the taper, until you see smoke.  Then take a
> light cut to remove the blackened wood, and press it on for another try.  In
> a few cycles, you can produce an excellent fit.
>

    OK, you have the proto chisel handle in the lathe between centers.
How do you fit the chisel on the taper to smoke 'er on?

Regards,
Steve

> > OK, you have the proto chisel handle in the lathe between centers. 
> > How do you fit the chisel on the taper to smoke 'er on?

I very successfully handled an old roughing gouge forged from a piece of 
something that looks like hex bar by turning the handle on the lathe, 
removing it and then drilling a succession of holes into the end where 
the chisel tang goes.

I started with an auger bit sized a bit smaller than the widest diameter 
of the chisel and guesstimated my way down to a small bit, ending at the 
approximate depth I wanted the tang to go.  Then I stacked up some fire 
brick and pointed a torch into the opening and heated the tang until it 
was as red as it would get (not very red, in this case), and quickly 
thrust it into the hole.  I repeated this a few times until it was very 
tight.

The wood was fairly wet when I did this, and I think the hot iron dried 
the hole some (so that it didn't split), and as it dried the rest of the 
way it tightened onto the tang.  I think that you're supposed to put a 
collar around this area of the handle before the final fitting / 
pounding in of the chisel, but I didn't and things worked out.

It worked remarkably well, and didn't require any complex tapering or 
anything other than a set of auger bits and a little torch.

I'd be pretty nervous jamming the business end of a stationary chisel 
into a spinning piece of wood, especially since I suspect we're talking 
about multiple horses driving the operation.

Chris, really enjoying my $40 pole lathe.
-- 
Christopher S. Swingley      University of Alaska Fairbanks
cswingle@i...        http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle

OldTools Searchable Archive: 
    http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
    http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
    http://archive.oldtools.org/

All this good discussion on chisels has woken out of my slumber!  Two
things I would add:
    Fitting the taper to the socket becomes easier if you place a rod in
the socket that does not bottom out.  For example, a 1/4" rod in a socket
you know terminates at about 3/16".  Note the length of rod which is in
the socket and then take the diameter at the top.   When turning the
handle, mark the length, and then use calipers to turn the major and minor
diameters at their respective ends.  Connecting the two creates an *exact*
match of what is in the socket.  CAM?

     The Withebys and a good deal of the buck bros I have come in contact
with have been laminated.  Be sure and check they have not been worn past
the steel on those "stumps".

     And now a question for the masses....   Does anyone know of the heat
treat process used by these manufacturers?  Occurs to me that if they ran
a temper, an old chisel could well be into softer stuff.  Were they using
ovens??

Lawrence H. Smith wrote:  (clip) With a non-round socket (a lot of them) you
need a registration mark (a line, or a crows-foot) on socket and handle, and
you'll be whittling (or hand scraping) rather than turning when you start to
get close(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I described the "smoke" method, I am afraid I was thinking only of a
round socket.  If, as Lawrence Smith says, they are usually out-of-round,
then I admit, a pocket knife is a better tool than a lathe for fitting the
taper.

Leo  wrote:

> There are a few ways to fit the taper to the socket.  One way I would like
> to mention is to hold the chisel in your hand, and with the wood spinning in
> the lathe, press it gently onto the taper, until you see smoke.  Then take a
> light cut to remove the blackened wood, and press it on for another try.  In
> a few cycles, you can produce an excellent fit.

I'M not much of a turner, but do you mean that the handle is only fastened
to the lather at one end and the other end is hanging out in the open??

Ed Minch

>In a few cycles, you can produce an excellent fit.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  OK, you have the proto chisel handle in the lathe between centers. How do
>you fit the chisel on the taper to smoke 'er on?
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Several people asked essentially this same question.  If you know in advance
>you're going to be doing this "smoking" technique, drive the wooden blank
>with a chuck, or use a drilled wooden block on a faceplate as a "jam chuck."

Or these simple techniques - one: turn between centers. When you want 
to fit, either demount from both centers and use rust, filth, soot or 
chalk in the socket to mark what's to be removed. Soot or chalk may 
be added if your socket is somehow too clean for rust and filth to do 
the job.

With a non-round socket (a lot of them) you need a registration mark 
(a line, or a crows-foot) on socket and handle, and you'll be 
whittling (or hand scraping) rather than turning when you start to 
get close. Stick it in with the marks lined up, wiggle but don't 
turn, then remove all the rusty/dirty/sooty/chalky parts and repeat. 
That will give you a fit that won't spin out if you twist it, with 
the typically non-round socket.

Two: Assuming the semi-mythical round socket, you can hold the 
tailstock end in the socket (holding the chisel with socket in your 
hand, tailstock slid back out of the way) and push the headstock end 
onto the drive center, pump it around a few times, and then remount 
on the tail center.
-- 
-Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker
-lsmith@s...      Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by.

Michael McCarthy wrote:
> All this good discussion on chisels has woken out of my slumber! Two
> things I would add: Fitting the taper to the socket becomes easier if
> you place a rod in the socket that does not bottom out. For example,
> a 1/4" rod in a socket you know terminates at about 3/16". Note the
> length of rod which is in the socket and then take the diameter at
> the top. When turning the handle, mark the length, and then use
> calipers to turn the major and minor diameters at their respective
> ends. Connecting the two creates an *exact* match of what is in the
> socket. CAM?

 The archive knows all... the
archive tells all... http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archiv-
e/get.phtml?message_id=88826#message 

       BugBear

Thank you for the many replies regarding my
'old chisel revival'.
I'm just beginning to
realize that plane collecting, chisel collecting,
old saw collecting, as well as building tools
such as planes, saws and lathes are just individual
runs at the WoodWorking Ski Resort, all slippery
slopes, and deceptive, as what starts out as a
a bunny slope can easily become a double black diamond!!
(With Scary Sharp turns thrown in)

God Bless you all
and again
Thanks!

Ren
Pine Island, MN
dona nobis pacem

> ...The other 2 chisels are a Buck Bros, and an Everkeen.
>      (web pages?)

Ren,

I don't think anyone gave an answer regarding the "Everkeen" brand yet --
It was a label used by Pritzlaff, a hardware wholesaler that was based in
Milwaukee. Their building still stands, it's a huge old Cream City Brick
warehouse building darkened by a century of dirt and soot, located just
south of Downtown between the post office and the Milwaukee River. You can
still see the Pritzlaff name faintly on the east face of the building. I
don't know when Pritzlaff went out of business but the building housed a
furniture store when I was a kid in the '60s.

Everkeen tools aren't uncommon -- they seem to pop up in Wisconsin often
enough, though last year I saw more Witherbys in the wild than Everkeens.
I have an Everkeen drawknife I inherited from Dad, also a small hatchet
and a couple chisels with the name. The few bench planes I've run across
were very cheaply built with sheet metal frogs. There exist better quality
planes - mjdtools.com has pictures of a couple that seem pretty nice.

I haven't gotten around to sharpening the edge tools yet so I can't judge
their quality, but the fit & finish seem on a par with most of the other
chisels I've managed to pile up.

> dona nobis pacem
Amen.

I never hold anything with my hands that is to be bored or turned on 
the lathe.  I use a wooden clamp which is big enough to prevent the 
object from turning if anything sets caught or otherwise tries to turn. 
  I don't mind a clamp being damaged when the alternative is damage to 
me.

On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 09:53  AM, Michael Lindgren wrote:

>
> I am too chicken to do this, even though my electrically powered lathe
> is a rather puny, old one.  I get pretty good marking just moving the
> chisel socket by hand on the stopped lathe.  I expect what you do gives
> a really good marking, I am just not brave enough to try...
>
Jim Thompson, the old Millrat, in Riverside, California

Hi Folks,

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Leo Lichtman wrote:

>
> There are a few ways to fit the taper to the socket. One way I would
> like to mention is to hold the chisel in your hand, and with the
> wood spinning in the lathe, press it gently onto the taper, until
> you see smoke. Then take a light cut to remove the blackened wood,
> and press it on for another try. In a few cycles, you can produce an
> excellent fit.

I am too chicken to do this, even though my electrically powered lathe
is a rather puny, old one. I get pretty good marking just moving the
chisel socket by hand on the stopped lathe. I expect what you do gives a
really good marking, I am just not brave enough to try...
>
> Of course, the lathe should be steam-powered, or water powered, or
> else it needs to be a pole lathe. Or, you could do what I do, and lie
> a little. :-)
>
A lot of the time we joke around about *l*ctr*c tools, but talking about
using a powered lathe in the restoration of an old hand tool is really
ok(though not dwelled on), IMHO. Oldtools has always had a niche in the
charter for those of us that like to restore and build old or
traditional style tools. I don't think we have ever insisted(at least
since January of 96, when I joined the list) that we not mention or
describe using more modern tools when restoring or making the old tools
we love so much. Ralph or Steve can correct me if I am wrong about that.
It's kind of like I would not talk about turning a table leg on a
powered lathe, but I don't think it is off charter to mention using one
to make and fit a new chisel handle to a lovely old Th. Witherby chisel.

I think I would be a lot happier to try the running chisel fit described
above with a pole lathe however!

Best regards, Mike Lindgren

while the motor on a tailed apprentice may be small, the momentum
it imparts to the work might be very great

techniques that work for spring pole or treadle lathes may not be
safe for their electron-sucking cousins, but using a tool freehand or
without a secure rest is dangerous on any type of lathe

Gary K
Close to Buffalo, NY

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Thompson" 
To: "oldtools" 
Cc: "oldtools" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 12:59 PM
Subject: [oldtools] Re: Old chisel questions

> I never hold anything with my hands that is to be bored or turned on
> the lathe.  I use a wooden clamp which is big enough to prevent the
> object from turning if anything sets caught or otherwise tries to
turn.
>   I don't mind a clamp being damaged when the alternative is damage to
> me.
>
> On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 09:53  AM, Michael Lindgren wrote:
>
> >
> > I am too chicken to do this, even though my electrically powered
lathe
> > is a rather puny, old one.  I get pretty good marking just moving
the
> > chisel socket by hand on the stopped lathe.  I expect what you do
gives
> > a really good marking, I am just not brave enough to try...
> >
> Jim Thompson, the old Millrat, in Riverside, California
>
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
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