Hi ivy-draped Galoots !

Here's the consensus regarding the inverse shooting board,
also known as the Non-Normite Jointer Project.

(1) It ain't new.  Coopers used 'em.  Be nice to see one ?
(2) Coopers were making barrels, so we're not talkin'
    hightech where they're concerned, and we want quiet jointers
    that can do anything Norm can do, but keeping our fingers
    intact, if not the skin on our thumbs.
(3) It's gotta be duck soup to remove & replace the blade
    for resharpening without losing its setting.
(4) It's gotta have an adjustable mouth.  Ever lose the end of a
    short board in an *l*ctr*c jointer ?  That's one reason, but
    the main one is so we don't have to juggle the board to face
    the grain the right way (short version: no pull-out).
(5) The blade's gotta be skewed. Groan; get the trig book out; the
    Bedrock's frog seat is tilted; skewed blade's bad enough.
(6) Add a fence & a miter-gauge slot (prosthetics for the cautious).
(7) Make it really long (some) or portable (others); that means
    we're gonna have a series of sizes, loosely based on weight.

The adjustable mouth and the R&R ease lead us to a cross between
a Bedrock frog and the Gage setting mechanism. [Sheesh; I thought
I was just gonna borrow that 605C Bedrock frog from Barry's auction,
the one that was installed crooked enough to scare away all but the
lucky unwary.  Hee, hee. (drive-by gloat; undeservedly so).]
Those in the know will remember that the Gage design has a crossbar
above the cap, whereas the Bedrock depends on a clamp screw that
penetrates the blade.  They would seem incompatible, but the inverse
shooting board (ISP/NNJ from now on) need not have its blade holding
mechanism confined between the closely spaced cheeks of your normal
plane. Also, if it works as planned, not many folks will see how
ugly things are gonna be under there.

Comments & flames are welcome.  No money has yet been committed,
and no bribes have yet been paid.  A hunk of steel channel, say
1-1/2 deep by 3 inches wide by 2 feet long, would make a nice base
from which to start ...

Remember, we're doing this to protect all those old iron planes
from being crushed in YB's Emmert vises. Why crushed ? Gotta hold
'em upside down somehow while we're sharpening the blade !

If we get a prototype done in less than a year, mebbe the thing can
be patented in spite of its public development. Patentee ? The List.

Best regards,
George
amenex@e...

George said:

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:33:20 -0500
>From: "George Langford, Sc.D." 
>Reply-To: amenex@e...
>To: oldtools@l...
>CC: amenex@e...
>Subject: Re: Inverse shooting board (NNJP) interim design summary
>
>Hi ivy-draped Galoots !
>
>Here's the consensus regarding the inverse shooting board,
>also known as the Non-Normite Jointer Project.
>
>(1) It ain't new.  Coopers used 'em.  Be nice to see one ?

>(7) Make it really long (some) or portable (others); that means
>    we're gonna have a series of sizes, loosely based on weight.

(1) I think there's a picture of a cooper actually using one
in Garrett Hack's " The Handplane Book" in the specialty planes
chapter.I can't confirm this right now (I'm supposed to be
working!)

(7) Yes,it is a long a** thing.I think the picture depicts
    the user sitting down with the jointer draped lengthwise
    in front of him over his knees.The plane extends at about
    a 45 degree angle spanning from the floor up to his chest,
    which suggests the plane is maybe 4 feet long or so (unless
    of course this particular cooper is of diminuitive stature).
    I'll check the book tonight unless someone can confirm this
meanwhile.

         Regards,
                  Phil.

______________________________________________________
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George Langford enquired about coopers jointers as a means
to save the cheeks of standard bench planes from the jaws
of our bench vises.

Hi George,
          The Handplane Book does indeed carry a section on
coopers planes .There is a picture of a cooper at Strawbery Banke Museum
in Portsmouth using the jointer on some oak staves.
There is also an early German etching depicting the same.
This section also shows a topping plane being used to level the
barrel top and also a howel and a croze to plane grooves into
the top and bottom of the barrel.
You'll find them in Chapter 11,page 212 if you're sneeking a peek
on the local bookstore shelves.

                Phil.

(Seems like a noble cause - but I'm still  trying to work out
where to keep my #8 in my small workshop never mind a 6 foot
coopers jointer!)

George said:
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:33:20 -0500
>From: "George Langford, Sc.D." 
>Reply-To: amenex@e...
>To: oldtools@l...
>CC: amenex@e...
>Subject: Re: Inverse shooting board (NNJP) interim design summary
>
>Hi ivy-draped Galoots !
>
>Here's the consensus regarding the inverse shooting board,
>also known as the Non-Normite Jointer Project.
>
>(1) It ain't new.  Coopers used 'em.  Be nice to see one ?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 1/26/99 George Langford writes:

> Here's the consensus regarding the inverse shooting board,
>  also known as the Non-Normite Jointer Project.

     Snip of consensus of plans and request for comments

>  If we get a prototype done in less than a year, mebbe the thing can
>  be patented in spite of its public development. Patentee ? The List.

The plans sound great.  This is a project I have always thought would be fun
to do. However as to the patent I think you had best check out Shopsmith
(Normie Mag) issue 19 pages 4 to 7 for an Article titled "Jigs, jointer using
hand plane".  I think this is what is known as prior art in the patent field.

This was a good article, and you may find it useful in this project.  They
flipped a plane upside down and built a bed and fence around it and presto had
a jointer.  However I don't think they gave any credit to the Coopers of old.

I don't remember if the Shopsmith neo-coopers jointer had an adjustable fence.
It seems to me that this is the only reason to build one.  If you want to
joint a board, or a pair of them then set the board up in the vice and plane
away.  On second thought perhaps this will make it easier to get a true edge
on one side.  I know Norm does this before running it through his T@b...* S#w t
o
true up the other edge.

Anyway I think the idea is great, I just thought you might find the prior art
helpful.

Scott Stradley

Scott Stradley wrote "However as to the patent I think you had best check
out Shopsmith (Normie Mag) issue 19 pages 4 to 7 for an Article titled
"Jigs, jointer using hand plane"."

The magazine is, of course, ShopNotes (sister magazine Woodsmith) and Scott
is correct in pointing out that the fence is not adjustable.

Steve Kroser
Fort Myers, FL

In a message dated 1/28/99 7:43:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
steve@p... writes:

>  the magazine is, of course, ShopNotes

Duh....

Thanks Steve.  I don't know how I made that boner!

Scott

I didn't follow the beginning of this thread, but it
doesnh't sound like anything new.

Lute making involves a form of cooperage with extremely
thin staves (1 to 1.5 mm thick). They must be planed on the
edges to lie in a plane, just like barrel staves.

This is done with a bench plane flush mounted upside down
in a table top. I don't see a non-galootish way of doing
it. The work is too delicate.

Rodney Myrvaagnes                   J36 Gjo/a
Associate Editor           Electronic Products
20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website

 >Scott Stradley wrote "However as to the patent I think you had best check
>out Shopsmith (Normie Mag) issue 19 pages 4 to 7 for an Article titled
>"Jigs, jointer using hand plane"."

Some time ago a friend sent me a copy of an article in
American Woodworker (February 1997, #57, p72): Edge-jointing
jig. It's a #7 held upside-down with a 22 deg. skew. It has
a 46.5 in. long "bed" (infeed and outfeed) with a  3.5 in. high
fixed fence. It's easy to build and can be adapted for other
plane sizes. Since my jointing technique improved, I never got
around to building it...
If interested and don't have access to American Woodworker, I
could mail/fax a copy.

Bon rabotage,
Louis

~  -----Original Message-----
~  From: owner-oldtools@l...
~  [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Rodney
~  Myrvaagnes
~  Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 2:47 PM
~  To: OldTools Mail list (E-mail)
~  Subject: RE: Inverse shooting board (NNJP) interim design summary
~
~  Lute making involves a form of cooperage with extremely
~  thin staves (1 to 1.5 mm thick). They must be planed on the
~  edges to lie in a plane, just like barrel staves.
~
~  This is done with a bench plane flush mounted upside down
~  in a table top. I don't see a non-galootish way of doing
~  it. The work is too delicate.

I think that Rodney has identified the principle value of this kind of
plane, ie for shooting the edges of curved surfaces.

I've turned my jack plane upside down for planing the edges of curve
laminae used for making small boxes.

This is the kind of job for which a really wide gadget would be
useful, rather than a long one.

Jeff