Short version:

I have a thumbhole DH that has been machine refiled to 7 point rip. It
still has a "9" or a "6" stamped on the heel of the blade, depending on
whether you read it handle-up or point-up. Can someone tell me which way
it is supposed to read? I would like to know if it was originally a 6
point rip or a (far rarer) 9 point crosscut.

And thank you, Pete Taran and Eric von Sneidern. The amount I've learned
from the Disstonian Institute and the VintageSaws site is incalculable.
Most of the actual information below is from these sites. The gloating,
chuckling, stretching my scales out on my gleaming hoard deep in the
caverns is my own doing.

Now lets go back across the street, but get there by going around all
four sides of the square.

Long version:

I'm beginning to think that maybe I have an eye. The Thursday before
last I didn=E2=80=99t get to my email until midnight, and when I did I
found that Michael S. (Nick Naylor) had forwarded an announcement of an
estate sale in my neck of the woods. It was full of superlatives: an old
couple who were collectors of many things (for instance adding machines,
electronic equipment, toys) and who owned an apartment building which
they didn=E2=80=99t so much rent out as fill up; multiple apartments all
filled with Stuff; =E2=80=9Chundreds of tools=E2=80=9D were mentioned,
so many that they didn=E2=80=99t even try to list=C2=A0 them.=C2=A0
Three day sale, 9-4 Friday and Saturday, and 10-3 Sunday. That=E2=80=99s
where the shoe pinched. I had a student coming by on Friday afternoon,
and Saturday I had been looking forward to my first meeting of the
Society of American Period Furniture Makers---=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0not that
I make the stuff, but I do like looking at it. (Great meeting, by the
way, both looking at furniture at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in
San Francisco and seeing Joe Jerkins' shop afterwards). There was no
realistic way of attending the estate sale unless I got there at the
very beginning, less than eight hours away. I was forced, against my
nature and my usual practice, into the only successful yard/estate sale
strategy: Get There Early.

So I pried my eyes open, short of sleep, and stumbled out the door in
the middle of the night (8:30 AM on Friday) and made the long trek out
to the sale site (four blocks).=C2=A0 They said they were only taking a
hundred people at a time, but I was 53 in line, so that was OK. As I
passed the entry I asked a guy where the tools were, and he said
=E2=80=9Ceverywhere;=E2=80=9D so I dithered a moment and then followed
wise instinct: I headed down. At the back of the sloping site was the
basement utility room.

Was it up to the ad? Well, it wasn=E2=80=99t Aladdin=E2=80=99s Cave.
There were indeed hundreds of tools, and they were, if not everywhere,
at least in every apartment. The problem was, they were mostly trash,
with a thin scatter of good stuff here and there. The estate sale
company had opened up five of the six apartment units plus the basement,
and there was stuff in every room, but it wasn=E2=80=99t crammed to eye
level the way it would have been if a real packrat had piled things in.
Trust me. I know packrats. Still, I did better than OK, through brunt of
unwillingly following the Only Successful Yard/Estate Sale
Strategy.=C2=A0 I went through the whole place twice quickly by ten and
loaded up; it is an indication of the number of buyers and the thinness
of the tools that I was able to carry and buy pretty much everything
that I saw and wanted, eleven items that they priced at twenty bucks the
lot (almost nothing had a price on it; they would take a glance at your
pile, shove it around just a moment, then name a ridiculously low
price.) When I realized how little they were charging and had paid my
double sawbuck I walked rapidly home, trying to keep from dropping
things, unloaded, and came back with the bag I forgot to bring for my
first run. Filled up with a bunch more stuff, mostly trivial but one of
the best tools of the day in that load, and the cost was fourteen
dollars. As far as decent tools went, the place was pretty well panned
out by 11 AM on Friday, though a lot of trash remained. And there was
still lots of other stuff. I went back on Sunday and got taken down a
peg: they were charging $10 for all you could carry, and I thought I was
covered but it turned out that all those CD cases were empty, and the
steel tommybar was too big for the press I need it for. Still, the whole
weekend's fun was only $44.00

The best item of all, because rarest in the wild (though maybe not the
most valuable monetarily), was a bookbinders roll without a handle,
small (only 2=E2=80=9D diameter instead of the usual 3=E2=80=9D-
4=E2=80=9D) but with the fragile working face undamaged; it was made by
a major toolcutter, Hoole Machine and Engraving Works after they moved
to Brooklyn, which dates it after 1898. This is only the second time in
thirty years that I have found a binder=E2=80=99s finishing tool in the
real wild, though they aren=E2=80=99t that rare in a bookbinder's sale
or a tool dealer's stock. The value of this one tool more than covered
the first batch for me. Oh, things weren't hurt by the #5 frankenplane
with a Type 11 body and an ugly aluminum handle (the handle will pay for
half the weekend's fun), or the tinsnips with 4-1/2" blades that I need
for roughcutting binders' board, or the lather of wrenches, auger bits,
files, dividers, hammers, and other little backups for things I have
already, or the five CDs of Richard Zimmerman playing ragtime, or the 50
DVD set with over half-a-dozen movies I wanted anyway. In other words, A
Very Good Weekend.

The gloating comes from the saws, though. Down in the basement, in the
first room I went in to there was a pile of half-a-dozen trashed
handsaws. I don=E2=80=99t have many saws, because I prefer bow saws to
hand saws and because backsaws (oh, I could ever so easily develop a
real backsaw problem) rarely turn up in the Bay Area, at least in the
venues I go to. But one handle looked right in the middle of a bunch of
handles that looked wrong, so I picked it up and brought it along. This
is the second hand saw I have paid money for, though I inherited a
decent Simonds and two Warrented Superiors. The new chum was crusted
over with rust and as dull as any saw I have ever touched, but as I
worked my way through cleaning and putting away my stash I checked it
out a bit, initially in The Disstonian Institute

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d23page.html

The saw is a 22-inch panel saw hand-filed 11 point crosscut. The
pattern of the saw nuts and the wheat carving showed it to be a D-23,
and it has the 1896-1917 medallion. It was rusty enough that I didn't
think I could save the etch, but I went through the motions (razor
blade, 400-grit wet-and-dry with a dead-flat maple block and Liquid
Wrench) and it came up nice and clear, though a bit faint in places.
The etch has the "23" surrounded by the "D," confirming the early date.
A nice saw to use (I like short handsaws), a bit better than average,
though not quite top-of-the-line or (as so far described) overly rare.
I sharpened it, with elation as related in an earlier post today,
tightened up the nuts a bit, cleaned the handle with alcohol (leaving
some of the remaining shellac, but unfortunately taking off some
thickness) and put it on a peg. And I did the same with the 12" No. 4
backsaw from 1917-1940 that I found on my second pass through the
basement, at the very back of the sloping, dirt-floored, neck-bendingly
low-ceilinged rear room of the basement, covered with dirt and
superficial rust but functionally undamaged (the etch on this one
didn't come up quite as well as the D-23, though it is there).

I hadn't checked out Pete Taran's site, what with all the other tools I
was squaring away, but after I posted earlier today on my experience
in=C2=A0 sharpening these saws I decided to re-read his sharpening
instructions, and that led to wandering around his site a bit.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_7

It turns out that early D-23s (before 1928) are rare, and that most
(Pete says 99%) of all D-23s are 8 or 9 point crosscuts. And rarest of
all are the ones Pete believes are the earliest production, with a
doubled notch on top of the handle and an asymmetrical handle cutout.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-
bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/museum/d20fm/d20fm.html

So my 22-inch early-production 11-point D-23 is... not common... in
several ways. I still mean to use it, though.

Not done yet. When I returned for a last look around the sale on Sunday
the very last thing I put in my bag was a crusted handsaw blade that I
and everyone else had passed up because the handle that seemed to go
with it was real crap, and I assumed that the blade was crap too. I
grabbed it the last day as scraper stock. When I got home, however, and
had done most of the cleaning and identification on the other two saws,
I looked at the rusty blade and figured I might be able to ID it, at
least in part. It had holes for five nuts, so it was not a Warrented
Superior, nor even one of Disston=E2=80=99s cheaper lines under their
own name. I could also see the shape of the handle in the rust on the
blade. The back top of the blade was shaped in a quarter-circle with a
3-1/4=E2=80=9D radius, which means that the slot in the handle does not
penetrate to the top, which Disston called a =E2=80=9CCover-top=E2=80=9D
handle. It was, that is, the plate of either a D-8 (produced 1875-1955)
or one of Disston's real top-of-the-line models. Chances are its a D-8,
of course, since that was the most popular single model. No etch left;
and it was repeatedly retoothed and machine-sharpened until the blade is
only an inch wide at the tip, about the limit you can manage with
machine retoothing, I gather (from Kirk's demonstrations at the last
BAGathon). Still enough left for hand sharpening, though, and better
than I would want to use for scraper stock. And it's a real kick to tell
myself that I can recognize high quality when just the rust-covered
plate is left. At this point, I know what to look for (five saw nuts
were only used on high-quality saws, though not all of those); but I
didn't know that when I grabbed what must have been the last tool worth
having in that apartment building, two days after the field was panned
out down to the rock.

I've had good luck with saws, for someone who hasn't bought many. My
first real backsaw (broom-handles don't count) was an 8" #4 that looked
like it has been left on the woodpile for thirty years. Grey, cracked,
loose handle, thick crust on the blade... well, I was charged $3 for it
by a dealer who I never knew to undercharge for a tool (or overcharge,
in fairness, just top edge of fair), so that will tell you. When I
finished the long job of reconditioning that one it was so sweet it
hooked me on backsaws, though it is still pretty fragile due to deep
corrosion under the handle. I keep it as a standard of comparison, not
for real use. Waaal, that one is datable from 1871 (plural Sons on the
handle) to 1876 (split nuts), and it has a medallion from a different
pattern than the one the Disstonian Institute shows for the period (mine
has a clear break in the name "Diss ton," unlike the one Erik shows).

And (we're coming back to the point of this posting, after the long walk
around the park to let me boast) when I looked at Pete Taran's site
earlier today I also looked up the one hand saw I had previously paid
money for, a thumbhole D-8 currently filed 7-point rip. I bought it
fifteen or twenty years ago because I like the thumbhole and because it
was sharp, but I bought it from a tool dealer at one of Dave Paling's
greatly missed Tool Swaps, and I wouldn't have paid a lot of money for
it (bottomfeeder, me) so I never thought of it as rare. I thought (till
a moment ago) that it had 8 teeth per inch, in other words that it was a
9-point saw, and it had the normal point number stamped into the blade
below the handle, a "6" or "9" so I just assumed it was a properly-
stamped 9-point saw. Then when I looked at Pete's site I learned that
thumbhole D-8 ripsaws were only made up to 7 point, and that a 9-pointer
would have to be a (very rare indeed) D-8 crosscut, and I got all
excited and enthusiastic and wrote this whole long posting (well, some
of it was written last week, about the estate sale, but not completed
and nearly abandoned).

And then I had to go and spoil it all by actually measuring the teeth on
my D-8. It is filed as a 7-point rip, not a 9-point, so there is nothing
out of the ordinary there. It must have been retoothed, since it started
out as a 6 or 9 point saw, but unless the number is the wrong way up
there is no reason to suppose that it was a rarissimum 9-point crosscut.
Egg all over my face. Taken down a peg, cut down to size. Jumping to
conclusions that my violin with a "Stradivarious" label is a
Stradivarius.

Still, I would like to know: should the point number at the base of a
Disston saw be read with the point upwards or the handle upwards? Just
out of curiosity, you understand. And if it turns out that I have the
rare on I shall start to regard The X-Files as a documentary.

Tom Conroy Berkeley


------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 17, 2011, at 16:03 , Thomas Conroy wrote:

> > I have a thumbhole DH that has been machine refiled to 7 point rip. It still
 has a "9" or a "6" stamped on the heel of the blade, depending on whether you r
ead it handle-up or point-up. Can someone tell me which way it is supposed to re
ad? I would like to know if it was originally a 6 point rip or a (far rarer) 9 p
oint crosscut.

Tom, I just checked my Disston saws, including two D15s, a D12, a D8,
and two No 7s.  All read with the toe of the handle down.
Interestingly, the 11 pt saws have serifs, so you can even tell the
correct direction in that case.

I also checked a few of my Atkins saws.  The 400 and 401 read with the
top up, handle to the right, facing the plate.  The #70 is oriented like
the Disston saws.

> > And thank you, Pete Taran and Eric von Sneidern. The amount I've learned fro
m the Disstonian Institute and the VintageSaws site is incalculable.

I'll second that!  Sounds like you had a great weekend, too; I think
putting saws back in service is fun, for some reason.  I hear you on
the disappointment over toothing.  I bought a shiny D8 with a nice
apple tote on e*ay, stamped 11 pt and so advertised.  It turned out
to have been recut to a 9 pt, which I already had, and I was really
bummed out.

Adam
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 11/17/2011 6:13 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2011, at 16:03 , Thomas Conroy wrote:
>
>> >> I have a thumbhole DH that has been machine refiled to 7 point rip. It sti
ll has a "9" or a "6" stamped on the heel of the blade, depending on whether you
 read it handle-up or point-up. Can someone tell me which way it is supposed to 
read? I would like to know if it was originally a 6 point rip or a (far rarer) 9
 point crosscut.
> Tom, I just checked my Disston saws, including two D15s, a D12, a D8,
> and two No 7s.  All read with the toe of the handle down.
> Interestingly, the 11 pt saws have serifs, so you can even tell the
> correct direction in that case.
>
> I also checked a few of my Atkins saws.  The 400 and 401 read with the
> top up, handle to the right, facing the plate.  The #70 is oriented like
> the Disston saws.
>
>
Another enjoyable story from Tom. Can anyone confirm whether the Disston 
saws manufactured in Toronto, Canada were marked with the number of 
tooth points per inch?
I can't seem to find such markings on my D8s. The Disstonian Institute 
doesn't seem to touch on this point._
_Don_
<http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/glossary.html#ppi>_

-- 
I hear, and I imagine; I see, and I understand; I do, and I remember forever. fr
om R.A. Salaman, Dictionary of Woodworking Tools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Adam Maxwell wrote:

> Tom, I just checked my Disston saws, including two D15s, a D12, a D8,
> and two No 7s.=A0 All read with the toe of the handle down.
> Interestingly, the 11 pt saws have serifs, so you can even tell the
> correct direction in that case.
>
> I also checked a few of my Atkins saws.=A0 The 400 and 401 read with
> the top up, handle to the right, facing the plate.=A0 The
> #70 is oriented like the Disston saws.

Adam, I wasn't sure what you meant by "the toe of the handle," but the
consistency seemed crucial. So I went back to the Institute D8 page

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html

to look for just one stamp, and the first saw has a crystal-clear 7
oriented to read with the point up in the air and the handle downward.
Most of the others, I couldn't see the mark. Only... maybe I'm seeing
dragons in the clouds, but as I stared at the second saw on the page, I
seemed to see a 7 on that one too, oriented to read with the handle on
the right and the point on the left.

Bugger.

Anyway, mine reads "6" with the point up and the handle down, which is
what is most likely the correct orientation and original point count.
And whatever it started as, its a damn good user in damn good condition.
Thanks for the help.

Tom
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.  If you can't read the ppi stamp, it's because the saw plate has
been eaten away by multiple filings/retoothings over time.

-- 
Erik von Sneidern
www.disstonianinstitute.com

P.S. It's funny seeing my name in the same sentence as Peter Taran.  
That guy actually knows something about saws.  : )

On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 20:18 -0700, Don Schwartz wrote:
> Another enjoyable story from Tom. Can anyone confirm whether the
> Disston 
> saws manufactured in Toronto, Canada were marked with the number of 
> tooth points per inch?
> I can't seem to find such markings on my D8s. The Disstonian
> Institute 
> doesn't seem to touch on this point._
> _Don_

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 17, 2011, at 22:38 , Thomas Conroy wrote:

> > Adam, I wasn't sure what you meant by "the toe of the handle," but the consi
stency seemed crucial. So I went back to the Institute D8 page

That means I'm a moron for editing as I type :).  I meant to write that the numb
er on mine read correctly with the handle down and toe up.  Sorry!

Of course, I also have a #7 with an X stamped in the plate under the handle, so 
who knows...maybe the guy that stamped saws thought it would be fun to confuse p
eople.

-- 
Adam

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 18, 2011, at 1:38 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote:

>  7 oriented to read with the point up in the air and the handle downward.

I just checked a half dozen Disstons, different models, lengths and eras and all
 are marked to be read this way.

Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 18, 2011, at 7:45 AM, Bill Ghio wrote:

>
> On Nov 18, 2011, at 1:38 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>
>> 7 oriented to read with the point up in the air and the handle  
>> downward.
>
> I just checked a half dozen Disstons, different models, lengths and  
> eras and all are marked to be read this way.
>
> Bill
>

Well darn, I just replied to Tom that I thought I have only seen the  
other way and never this way.  Saw teeth down and parallel to the  
ground to read the ppi.  But, I haven't paid to close attention and  
most of mine are scattered hither and yon so I can't check right now.   
But I will sure pay more attention in the future.

--Scott

-------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia Missouri

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 18, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Scott Stager wrote:

> 
> On Nov 18, 2011, at 7:45 AM, Bill Ghio wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Nov 18, 2011, at 1:38 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>> 
>>> 7 oriented to read with the point up in the air and the handle downward.
>> 
>> >> I just checked a half dozen Disstons, different models, lengths and eras a
nd all are marked to be read this way.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
> 
> > Well darn, I just replied to Tom that I thought I have only seen the other w
ay and never this way.  Saw teeth down and parallel to the ground to read the pp
i.  But, I haven't paid to close attention and most of mine are scattered hither
 and yon so I can't check right now.  But I will sure pay more attention in the 
future.
> 
I have an Atkins, a Keen Kutter and a Crusader (Jennings) each marked as the Dis
ston. However, I have two Sandviks that are marked to read w/ saw teeth down and
 parallel to earth.

Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 18, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Bill Ghio wrote:

> I have an Atkins, a Keen Kutter and a Crusader (Jennings) each  
> marked as the Disston. However, I have two Sandviks that are marked  
> to read w/ saw teeth down and parallel to earth.

Looking at the 65+ saws down there,  every one that has a number is  
stamped to read with the blade up and the handle down, including  
Disston, Atkins, Simonds, Bishop, and Harvey Peace.  This includes all  
sizes of saws from 20" to 30".  The ones that are not marked include a  
polished blade Sandvik, many Disstons, even a 1954 "Hardware Store  
Special", but mostly the off brands of the big makers.

There is only one exception - a beautiful 22 inch "Sheffield Saw,  
Indianapolis, Ind, by Atkins"  stamped to be read wth the saw in  
normal position.

Ed Minch

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Galoots,

I have a question. Why were the numbers put so close to the teeth? I 
have at least a couple of Disstons that are marked "0". Since 0 TPI is 
not very likely, I assume it was originally "10" and the 1 was lost due 
to filing. I also have some saws that have been resharpened enough times 
the no number shows. It seems it would have made more sense to put the 
numbers further from the teeth.

Maybe you were supposed to throw away the saw once the number was no 
longer visible?  I'm sure Disston's sales people would not have objected 
to this idea.

Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Conroy" 

Bugger.

Anyway, mine reads "6" with the point up and the handle down, which is 
what is most likely the correct orientation and original point count. 
And whatever it started as, its a damn good user in damn good condition. 
Thanks for the help.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Erik,

That makes sense to me.

Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erik von Sneidern" 
To: "Frank Sronce" 
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Thumbhole D8 question (long)

> Maybe the number was stamped for the purpose of labeling the saw 
> before
> its sale, not as a reminder to the owner of the saw once it was in his
> possession.
>
>
> -- 
> Erik von Sneidern
> www.disstonianinstitute.com 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe the number was stamped for the purpose of labeling the saw before
its sale, not as a reminder to the owner of the saw once it was in his
possession.

-- 
Erik von Sneidern
www.disstonianinstitute.com

On Fri, 2011-11-18 at 14:32 -0600, Frank Sronce wrote:
> Galoots,
> 
> I have a question. Why were the numbers put so close to the teeth? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saws can easily be retoothed in their lives to different tpi/ppi.

Having the stamp next to the teeth would make it less confusing, because
a retoothing job would largely pass up the stamp and the saw would just
be re-stamped with the new number, if changed.

Having the stamp far from the toothed edge would require it to be
crossed out so the new tpi/ppi could be stamped in. No bueno.

Didn't everyone have number stamps lying about?

Just another reason to keep my eyes open for some. Love this group.

Matthew Groves Springfield, MO

On Nov 18, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Erik von Sneidern wrote:

Maybe the number was stamped for the purpose of labeling the saw before
its sale, not as a reminder to the owner of the saw once it was in his
possession.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 11/17/2011 10:18 PM, Don Schwartz wrote:

>  Can anyone confirm whether the Disston saws manufactured in Toronto,
>  Canada were marked with the number of tooth points per inch? I can't
>  seem to find such markings on my D8s.

I checked the saw rack (didn't bother to with The Pile Of Dreck) and
of the 5 Disston Toronto saws all of them were marked with their pitch.
My D8 made in Toronto is stamped "5 1/2".  Yours may have been
sharpened down past the stamp.  Look closely at the teeth near the
heel, do any of them have a partial number stamped on them?  My
Simonds cross cut has what may be part of a "9" on one tooth.

-- 
Darrell LaRue
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

------------------------------------------------------------------------