Folks,

I have some technique questions...as I continue my apprenticeship...

I have found that many of these things are like learning to play an 
instrument--the first time you try, the results are extremely rough, but
continued practise brings refined results.

When practising music, I find some skills are improved by doing exercises,
as opposed to always working with actual music.

What about joinery?   It seems like I do things like cut dovetails, and 
then spend a lot of time paring them because my saw cuts weren't that
accurate.  Maybe that time would be better spent practising sawing to
a line over and over again until I get skilled enough to eliminate much
of the paring?

 Here are some exercises I though of.  Any comments
on their appropriateness or efficacy would be appreciated...

* Should I practise things like freehand crosscutting without a line, going
  for a cut that is square to the edge and the face of the board.

* What about sawing down the face of a board (like for dovetails).  Should
  I try making a series of vertical cuts with the board inclined at various
  angles to develop the ability to cut vertically naturally?   I had though
  of marking a line on the end, and then scribing the cut line on the 
  opposite side of the board, and then seeing how close I can come without 
  being able to see the cut line...

* Cutting to a line:  practise scribing lines at various orientations to
  the grain and the side and face of the board and then cutting to the 
  line.   Could practise with pencil lines and knife/awl lines...

* Planing an edge straight and square to the face until I feel like it
  is square and straight and then check it with straight edge and square.

* Same exercise as above only with the face of a board...

* Similar exercises could work for drilling, etc. 

Of course, I could just continue to make projects, but this seems a lot
like learning to play an instrument by just taking on successively harder
pieces of music.   In music, the best musicians know that by focusing 
intensely on a piece of technique with exercises, one can master it much
faster and more thoroughly than just by playing through a whole piece of
music over and over again.

Do any of the masters out there reading this list have any opinions?  How
about suggestions of other "exercises"?

Thanks!

gph

gph writes :

>I have some technique questions...as I continue my apprenticeship...

Can't see where you could go wrong by practicing.  I've always been
a bit uncomfortable with the project-oriented nature of a lot of us.
As if practicing while not producing is no longer acceptable.

>Do any of the masters out there reading this list have any opinions?  
>How about suggestions of other "exercises"?

I'm certainly no master, but that doesn't stop me from having
opinions :-)  I'm strongly of the opinion that if you want to
end up being able to cut to the line, and not have to pare, you
have to practice by cutting to the line.  I've cut a very few 
practically perfect dovetails by cutting wide and paring for
:hours: until the fit was just right.  All I learned was how
to pare.  I now go ahead as if I've done the operation all my
life and live with the result, which gets better every time.

My current favourite exercise, that I'll often do when I want to 
get away from reality for a bit, is to grab a rail-type piece of
wood and, using either just a pencil and my fingers as a guide,
or a marking gauge, mark off the end as :

    ---------------------------         -----------
                      |        |       |   |   |   |  
                      |--------|       |---|---|---|
      (4 sides)       |        |       |   |   |   |  (end)
                      |--------|       |---|---|---|
                      |        |       |   |   |   |
   ----------------------------         -----------

Then grab my two tenon saws and saw out then tenon.  I then make
similar marks on the end of the tenon and repeat the process.  
And repeat until I run out of wood.  I then saw off the works
with a final crosscut.  I end up with some pretty neat pieces 
that look like the Empire State Building (great for the kids).

Paul P

Montreal (Quebec)

Paul asks about a woodworking equivalent to scales and exercises in
music... 
> Of course, I could just continue to make projects, but this seems a lot
> like learning to play an instrument by just taking on successively harder
> pieces of music. In music, the best musicians know that by focusing 
> intensely on a piece of technique with exercises, one can master it much
> faster and more thoroughly than just by playing through a whole piece of
> music over and over again.
> 
> Do any of the masters out there reading this list have any opinions? How
> about suggestions of other "exercises"?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> gph
> 
I won't call myself a master but...

I picked up a suggestion a while back from I don't remember where on 
dovetails that went something like "make a bunch of boxes to hold crap
until the boxes don't look like crap, then start on drawers".

I have expressed ww to myself as an analogy to sewing, try to arrange 
your projects so that the desired result in workmanship matches your 
skills. In sewing terms (assuming female student ;-), first make some
nightgowns, no fitting and if they aren't perfect, well you don't admire
your clothes when sleeping. Then curtains, simple geometry and you can
hopefully steer the machine straight. Then you can start the fitted 
pants and skirts, and can work your way up to skintight evening gowns.
When I learned to sew, my pickiness on workmanship increased as my skill,
the problem woodworking is I am pickier on the workmanship than my skills
can do.

My woodworking solution has been useable bookcases, tables, Dunbar's
chairs, now in the middle of kitchen cabinets. The chairs are particularly
nice because while they do involve "workmanship of risk" since they are 
painted you have a chance of hiding some problems (but not all).

It also helps my feelings to take a close look at some antiques periodically,
most of them are not the total finish of "modern" art furniture as seen 
in FWW, and a lot of dovetailed drawers are downright rough by modern
standards.

My $.02

Esther eoh@k...

> Folks,
> 
> I have some technique questions...as I continue my apprenticeship...
> 
> I have found that many of these things are like learning to play an 
> instrument--the first time you try, the results are extremely rough, but
> continued practise brings refined results.
> 
> When practising music, I find some skills are improved by doing exercises,
> as opposed to always working with actual music.
> 
> What about joinery?   It seems like I do things like cut dovetails, and 
> then spend a lot of time paring them because my saw cuts weren't that
> accurate.  Maybe that time would be better spent practising sawing to
> a line over and over again until I get skilled enough to eliminate much
> of the paring?
> 

The problem I have with "practicing" is that at some level my
brain recognizes I'm only "practicing" and I rarely work up the
proper state of mind to produce my best results. (Yo-Yo enthusiasts
may recognize this as the "State of Yo"; I believe woodworking
has its equivalent.)

When I first got the IT saw, I needed to change some of the ways I
cut dovetails so I did a fair amount of practicing, but it didn't
seem like I was improving or learning much from it. Instead I found 
just using it more and more on actual projects seemed to result in
steady progress. 
I make lots of dovetailed boxes and other small pieces to sell
(lots = ~2 dozen a year, feels like a lot anyway) and I'm 
interested in improving both technique and the speed at which I
can produce them.
For the main box, I use a fairly lengthy set of steps that gives
what I feel are pretty good results. It takes me about 4 hours to
dovetail a box this way. This involves careful layout, and lots of
marking and scribing.
I usually make smaller trays or drawers for
the inside of a piece and it's here where I cut some corners technique
wise, doing more like the Frank Klausz style. These might take an
hour to do (part of the time saving comes from using thinner wood).
At first the trays were kind of ratty, but still good enough for the
inside of a jewelry box.

Lately I seem ( or tell myself anyway) to have made some
kind of breakthrough. The laborious technique is giving me
better results and I'm doing a lot less paring than I used to.
With the speedy technique, I seem to be sawing straighter lines
by eyeball and more uniform pins and tails that I thought possible.
I've had some of the trays go together with almost no paring.

I don't know how much of this is due to the "practice" of
doing more dovetails and how much is just learning to use the
IT correctly, but just before the New Year's price increase, I
ordered another one. I think I was getting nervous about
having the first one away being resharpened and not having a
backup. (like Isaac Asimov used to keep several IBM selectric
typewriters around in case one should fail.)

Aside from dovetails, I've been trying to use handsaws for
other jobs, usually non-critical. Usually I scribe a line
and "practice" cutting to it. Even done this cutting
scraps for firewood, but I still get better results when it's
the "real" thing.

Still feel like I'm a long way from mastering this, but
I'm having a good time.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Carl

 

I've got to agree with Esther here on the box thing. I've been making my 
now infamous Box o' Dovetails for all sorts of junk around the shop. (So 
far only one, the first, is stained with the red stuff.) My dovetails 
have certainly improved since then. Same for my sawing techniques.

Now as to skintight evening gowns.... I am shuddering at the thought of 
500 or so VERY hairy Neanderthals dragging their knuckles on the ground 
next to their spike pumps walking up and down their shop looking for 
needle and thread in order to sew their sequins back on.

Although (glance left...right...over the shoulder) I have heard that 
Gunterman fellow talk about how he likes the feel of silk next to his 
skin! You KNOW what I'm talking about (Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge). 

Gary Johns                
"Talks to Tools"

[squash]

Esther is right. I'm not much of a seamster, but I was a musician in a
previous, and much younger life. I would equate the execution of a nice,
tight M&T with a short etude, and a dovetailed box with that of a short
solo piece. For any trumpet players out there, I would say that making a
toolchest like Studley's would be akin to playing The Carnival of Venice
(out of the Arban's book), with both hands behind your back, working the
valves with your toes. Yeah. That'd be it.

Paul, as for repetitive, mechanical practice, like the kinds you, I, and
anyone else foolish enough to call themselves a musician, subjected
themselves to, I don't think it's quite the same. Music "happens" much
faster than woodworking, and therefore you body has to have a lot more
"things" memorized. 

There's some cross-training too; I mean, I found I didn't have to practice
much buzing my lips, while I'm crosscutting a board. Hey, what are all
those little spots on my workpiece?

Paddy (Louie Armstrong) O'Deen

ledzep@e... mused about Re: Technique Questions:
> > Folks,
> The problem I have with "practicing" is that at some level my
> brain recognizes I'm only "practicing" and I rarely work up the

Me too. 

> When I first got the IT saw, I needed to change some of the ways I
> cut dovetails so I did a fair amount of practicing, but it didn't
> seem like I was improving or learning much from it. Instead I found 
> just using it more and more on actual projects seemed to result in
> steady progress. 

Yes, the saw has a tendency to teach you technique.  I see this as a 
"Good Thing".  Before going up to York, I built a set of shelves.  
(These are utilitarian and I left all marks on) While freehanding the 
dovetails for this I re-discovered that by looking at the reflection 
of the stock off of the IT blade, when the stock was lined up with the 
reflection the saw was square.

I'm sure I read this somewhere and forgot it (possibly in Good 
Woodworking) but a polished blade makes it a *lot* easier to judge 
angles without layout marks.  

-Ted

(who is wondering if we will see a bunch of polished dovetail saws 
on the market in 50 years ;-)

 

At 01:04 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Patrick Olguin wrote:
>[squashhings" memorized. 
>
>There's some cross-training too; I mean, I found I didn't have to practice
>much buzing my lips, while I'm crosscutting a board. Hey, what are all
>those little spots on my workpiece?
>
>Paddy (Louie Armstrong) O'Deen
>

I 've heard it said that woodworking gets in the blood. I know that for many
galoots blood also gets in the woodworking. I have several very tiny
straight scars on my fingers where I have taken a Mifers all the way to
bone. If it's really sharp. It'll close right back up and leave the tiniest
of scars :-) I have had to improve my chisel technique. The bandaid cost was
getting prohibitive

Ron
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------

** Reply to note from gph@h... Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:23:50 -0500 
>    
> I have found that many of these things are like learning to play an  
> instrument--the first time you try, the results are extremely rough, but 
> continued practise brings refined results. 
>    
> When practising music, I find some skills are improved by doing exercises, 
> as opposed to always working with actual music. 
>    
> What about joinery?   It seems like I do things like cut dovetails, and  
> then spend a lot of time paring them because my saw cuts weren't that 
> accurate.  Maybe that time would be better spent practising sawing to 
> a line over and over again until I get skilled enough to eliminate much 
> of the paring? 
>    
 
I have done and will continue to do a lot of practice exercises, but.  There 
is a different mindset when practicing and when doing real work.  For me a 
little practice to develop technique is very valuable; however, too much 
practice is counter productive.  Gain some familiarity with the technique 
and then build something.  It won't be great (probably) but will show a 
considerable improvemement over the practice.  Then more practice to refine 
technique. 
 
>    
>  Here are some exercises I though of.  Any comments 
> on their appropriateness or efficacy would be appreciated... 
>    
> * Should I practise things like freehand crosscutting without a line, going 
>   for a cut that is square to the edge and the face of the board. 
>    
 
Why? real craftsmen aren't above using squares.  Much better to learn to 
follow the line IMO. 
 
> * What about sawing down the face of a board (like for dovetails).  Should 
>   I try making a series of vertical cuts with the board inclined at various 
>   angles to develop the ability to cut vertically naturally?   I had though 
>   of marking a line on the end, and then scribing the cut line on the  
>   opposite side of the board, and then seeing how close I can come without  
>   being able to see the cut line... 
>    
 
I don't know about you but I naturally make vertical cuts.  My best success 
on sawing dovetails came when I made sure the tail lines were dead vertical. 
 
> * Cutting to a line:  practise scribing lines at various orientations to 
>   the grain and the side and face of the board and then cutting to the  
>   line.   Could practise with pencil lines and knife/awl lines... 
>    
> * Planing an edge straight and square to the face until I feel like it 
>   is square and straight and then check it with straight edge and square. 
>    
> * Same exercise as above only with the face of a board... 
>    
> * Similar exercises could work for drilling, etc.  
>    
> Of course, I could just continue to make projects, but this seems a lot 
> like learning to play an instrument by just taking on successively harder 
> pieces of music.   In music, the best musicians know that by focusing  
> intensely on a piece of technique with exercises, one can master it much 
> faster and more thoroughly than just by playing through a whole piece of 
> music over and over again. 
>    
> Do any of the masters out there reading this list have any opinions?  How 
> about suggestions of other "exercises"? 
>    
 
Obviously I am not a master but I found your question intriguing and felt 
compelled to answer. 
 
My bottom line recommendation is to pick a project, any project.  Define the 
required techniques and practice enough to be familiar with them but not 
necessarily proficient.  DO THE PROJECT.  Then practice to refine technique. 
YMMV.

ernie 
The Arizona tool sink, IT #22

** Reply to note from harpie@n... Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:44:12 -0500 
>    
> I 've heard it said that woodworking gets in the blood. I know that for many 
> galoots blood also gets in the woodworking. I have several very tiny 
> straight scars on my fingers where I have taken a Mifers all the way to 
> bone. If it's really sharp. It'll close right back up and leave the tiniest 
> of scars :-) I have had to improve my chisel technique. The bandaid cost was 
> getting prohibitive 
>    
 
If it's REALLY sharp you never get near the bone 'cause you ain't pushing 
that hard.  I just get little nicks that bleed profusely. 
 
To reduce the cost of bandaids and retain that sense of touch wrap your cuts 
with spider web.  Black widow is best.  A real neandert(h)al technique.

ernie 
The Arizona tool sink, IT #22