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277059 James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> 2023‑03‑02 making scrollwork... how to smooth?
I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a
coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff -
fines, flowing curves, etc.

I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around
it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't
figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where
there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming
together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he
complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a nail
file), and I'm stuck.

Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good -
rough, ridges, bumps, etc....

any ideas?

I'll post some pics on facebook....

thanks
-James
277060 Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> 2023‑03‑02 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
James,

I had some similar issues when doing the scrollwork for a Chippendale looking
glass. Thoughts from memory...

1. Use as fine tooth a blade as possible (see below).
2. Use a bird's mouth platform to minimize chipping.
3. Sandpaper wrapped around a popsicle stick helps in tight areas. For really
tight spots try folding the sandpaper over on itself and hold both ends of the
sandpaper strip (above/below), pull tight, and gently work your way in.

I don't recall what tooth I used (probably 20-24) in my coping saw. If I was
doing it again, I'd use a fretsaw and 2/0 blade to minimize the need for sanding
in the first place. That's assuming you are working with fairly thin material
(1/4" or less).

Dennis Heyza
New Baltimore, Michigan

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of James DuPrie
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 8:04 AM
To: Tools Old 
Subject: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth?

I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a coping
saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff - fines, flowing
curves, etc.

I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around it or
build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't figured out how
to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where there is a lot of
room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming together, there simply
isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he complication that the surfaces are all
curves (so you an't use a nail file), and I'm stuck.

Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good - rough,
ridges, bumps, etc....

any ideas?
277062 gary allan may 2023‑03‑02 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
Hi James---
  
  One thing I'd add to Mr. Heyza's pretty-much-perfect summary: use coarse
garnet paper for sandpaper, even as gravelly as 60-80 grit. Garnet 'softens'
quickly in use and removes its own tracks almost magically. If you have a long
way to go with your shaping or toothmark removal, 60-grit will start acting like
120-grit by time you get close. And then 120 magically becomes 220, just as
fast.

Hey, got designs to show??? EMWTK....

                                  all the best to all galoots, everywhere; gam
in OlyWA

                     


 

    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 06:21:56 AM PST, Dennis Heyza
 wrote:
 
 James,

I had some similar issues when doing the scrollwork for a Chippendale looking
glass. Thoughts from memory...

1. Use as fine tooth a blade as possible (see below).
2. Use a bird's mouth platform to minimize chipping.
3. Sandpaper wrapped around a popsicle stick helps in tight areas. For really
tight spots try folding the sandpaper over on itself and hold both ends of the
sandpaper strip (above/below), pull tight, and gently work your way in.

I don't recall what tooth I used (probably 20-24) in my coping saw. If I was
doing it again, I'd use a fretsaw and 2/0 blade to minimize the need for sanding
in the first place. That's assuming you are working with fairly thin material
(1/4" or less).

Dennis Heyza
New Baltimore, Michigan

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of James DuPrie
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 8:04 AM
To: Tools Old 
Subject: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth?

I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a coping
saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff - fines, flowing
curves, etc.

I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around it or
build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't figured out how
to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where there is a lot of
room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming together, there simply
isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he complication that the surfaces are all
curves (so you an't use a nail file), and I'm stuck.

Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good - rough,
ridges, bumps, etc....

any ideas?
277063 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2023‑03‑02 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
If memory serves, I've seen somewhere for sale narrow strips of abrasive 
papers with fixings to use them in coping or fretsaws. You may be able 
to fashion something like that using bits of tape to attach the 
abrasives to the saw.

FWIW
Don

On 2023-03-02 6:03 a.m., James DuPrie wrote:
> I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a
> coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff -
> fines, flowing curves, etc.
>
> I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around
> it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't
> figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where
> there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming
> together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he
> complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a nail
> file), and I'm stuck.
>
> Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good -
> rough, ridges, bumps, etc....
>
> any ideas?
>
> I'll post some pics on facebook....
>
> thanks
> -James
>
>
> 
>
>

-- 

Chuck the king - DS

It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder
277064 gtgrouch@r... 2023‑03‑02 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
In the past, I've wrapped abrasive paper around the blade of an
electric scroll saw. 

It's fast. Sometimes too fast, since it can cut thin material quickly.


*goes to clean the spittoon for mentioning electrical aids*

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
where a foot of snow is forecast for the weekend

	-----------------------------------------From: "Don Schwartz" 
To: "James DuPrie", "Tools Old"
Cc: 
Sent: Thursday March 2 2023 2:03:56PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth?

 If memory serves, I've seen somewhere for sale narrow strips of
abrasive
 papers with fixings to use them in coping or fretsaws. You may be
able
 to fashion something like that using bits of tape to attach the
 abrasives to the saw.

 FWIW
 Don

 On 2023-03-02 6:03 a.m., James DuPrie wrote:
 > I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out
with a
 > coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian
stuff -
 > fines, flowing curves, etc.
 >
 > I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design
around
 > it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I
haven't
 > figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for
areas where
 > there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles
coming
 > together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he
 > complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a
nail
 > file), and I'm stuck.
 >
 > Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't
good -
 > rough, ridges, bumps, etc....
 >
 > any ideas?
 >
 > I'll post some pics on facebook....
 >
 > thanks
 > -James
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >

 --

 Chuck the king - DS

 It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
277065 scottg <scottg@s...> 2023‑03‑02 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
Needle files were made for this. But they won't go in everywhere.
Gluing sandpaper down to sticks of various sizes will fit even more places.
The tiniest slits usually just have to stay. Just sand the outsides for 
any chipouts. Nobody can see inside anyway.
   yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
277066 James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> 2023‑03‑03 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
Thanks everyone....
I switched from a coping saw to a jewelers saw - much finer blade/teeth,
and that helped a lot.
Still working on getting the tight areas clean, and long smooth curves
regular.

things I've figured out:

   - 3/8" is too thick. dropping to 1/4 made a HUGE difference.
   - rolled up sandpaper, Popsicle sticks, nail files, etc all work, but
   there are places they just can;t reach...
   - Same goes for needle files and rifflers....
   - go slow. painfully slow. cutting fast is satisfying, but gives poor
   results (practice probably allows for more speed)
   - PRACTICE. probably the biggest one. The improvements I've seen in just
   a few days are significant. Of course, being a perfectionist, I'll probably
   never truly get to the "this is good" phase...
   - it might be time to think about a treadle powered scroll saw....

-james
277067 Erik Levin 2023‑03‑03 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
James followed up with:
>Thanks everyone....
>I switched from a coping saw to a jewelers saw - much finer blade/teeth,
>and that helped a lot.
>Still working on getting the tight areas clean, and long smooth curves
>regular.


A couple of things to consider:

Knife and barrette profile files have a narrow angle and come to a sharp edge
and are good for where you are coming to a point without much curve.

Rifflers come in profiles that will do the same when the approach is a curve. 

At narrow areas, don't cut to the point with the saw. Stop short, and file to
the point. Tilt the file from perpendicular to the surface to stretch to a sharp
point of narrower angle than the file angle. No, you won't clear all of the
material out to the point, but it will look perfect at the surface. Where the
material isn't removed all of the way through, the surface cut is so narrow it
won't be seen.

*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
277068 Tony Seo 2023‑03‑03 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
On 3/3/2023 7:55 AM, James DuPrie wrote:
> Thanks everyone....

At one point I had a box of garnet paper strips, they were about 3" long
and 1/8" wide.  I believe that they were used for either jewelry work or
dental (denture) making.   But they have disappeared here so....  If you
could find something like that, I'm sure they could solve a lot of problems.

Tony (no video this week and watching the weather for PATINA not getting
very pretty looking at this point)

--
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
277069 Bridger Berdel <bridgerberdel@g...> 2023‑03‑04 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
Narrow strips of abrasives sounds like something that could be mounted into
a fret saw....

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023, 4:44 PM Tony Seo via groups.io  wrote:
277070 Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> 2023‑03‑04 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
Narrow strips was what I alluded to in my reply. Just cut a strip (found it
helps if you cut 1" and fold it over to 1/2"). If you cut it long enough (say
5-6") you can easily pull it taught above/below the scrollwork and sand -
sometimes up/down, sometimes side to side. You can easily get this is pretty
tight spots.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of Bridger Berdel
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2023 9:41 PM
To: tonyseo@p...
Cc: James DuPrie ; Tools Old 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth?

Narrow strips of abrasives sounds like something that could be mounted into a
fret saw....
277071 James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> 2023‑03‑04 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
I actually discovered the point trick yesterday. By accident.
I was trying to clean up a point at the end of a long narrow curve, and
started the file at an angle to establish the 'target' line. then the phone
rang. while I was dealing with the call, I noticed that the corner
looked...perfect... Once I was off the phone, I looked a bit closer, and
(you;re right) even though the actual cut only went a little bit into the
surface, it LOOKED like it was all the way through.

A bit more playing, and (depending on grain direction) I can get the same
effect with an X-acto knife or sharp chisel....

thanks!
-James
277072 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2023‑03‑04 Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
That's what i suggested� - strips taped to fret saw or coping saw.
Don

On 2023-03-04 5:17 a.m., Dennis Heyza wrote:
> Narrow strips was what I alluded to in my reply. Just cut a strip (found it
helps if you cut 1" and fold it over to 1/2"). If you cut it long enough (say
5-6") you can easily pull it taught above/below the scrollwork and sand -
sometimes up/down, sometimes side to side. You can easily get this is pretty
tight spots.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of Bridger Berdel
> Sent: Friday, March 3, 2023 9:41 PM
> To: tonyseo@p...
> Cc: James DuPrie ; Tools Old 
> Subject: Re: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth?
>
> Narrow strips of abrasives sounds like something that could be mounted into a
fret saw....
>
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2023, 4:44 PM Tony Seo via groups.io 
wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/2023 7:55 AM, James DuPrie wrote:
>>> Thanks everyone....
>> At one point I had a box of garnet paper strips, they were about 3"
>> long and 1/8" wide.  I believe that they were used for either jewelry work or
>> dental (denture) making.   But they have disappeared here so....  If you
>> could find something like that, I'm sure they could solve a lot of
>> problems.
>>
>> Tony (no video this week and watching the weather for PATINA not
>> getting very pretty looking at this point)
>>
>> --
>> Facebook
>> https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
>> Old River Hard Goods
>> http://oldetoolshop.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>

-- 

Chuck the king - DS

It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder
277074 Kirk Eppler 2023‑03‑06 Re: [Sender Verification Fail] Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth?
I posted this on the FB thread, but I once saw a suggestion to use Mylar
backed sandpaper for thin  gaps, less thick than paper or cloth backed, and
still very flexible.

https://www.amazon.com/1X30-2000-Grit-Polishing-Cushioned/dp/B08CY6MM6X

Something like this, can be cut to narrower or shorter once you get going.

I used to have cord abrasives for stripping paint off a turned table leg,
and this is finer still.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, still fishing through the haul of tools from my
buddy's garage.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 11:13 AM Dennis Heyza 
wrote:

> Narrow strips was what I alluded to in my reply. Just cut a strip (found
> it helps if you cut 1" and fold it over to 1/2"). If you cut it long enough
> (say 5-6") you can easily pull it taught above/below the scrollwork and
> sand - sometimes up/down, sometimes side to side. You can easily get this
> is pretty tight spots.
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
277092 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2023‑03‑10 Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?)
A small revelation that says much about design being informed by making

> On 10 Mar 2023, at 12:52, James DuPrie  wrote:
> 
>  By ending the cut a little before the point, then carving
> the point at the surface, the end result LOOKS like a really tight point
> that goes all the way through - even if it is only superficial... that
> meant that most of the real problem areas simply went away - they were
> carved instead of cut…



Isn’t that true for so many of us?  After some sweaty hours attempting to make
or repair summit (some thing, Paddy)  when you next encounter that same detail,
you make it in such a way that it fits your tools.

My own conversion was when I discovered that architectural carvings are fitted
to the sweep of the gouges you have on hand, and the crisp results are not the
product of years of apprenticing to handle a gouge and sweep a clean, cut curve
with one blow, but the result of having the design workable with the tools on
hand. - so THAT’s why carvers have so many tools.  But only the ones they
actually need.


Richard Wilson 
Yorkshireman Galoot.  
In a sunny Northumbria, where snow is hiding away in shady places.  




-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
277093 Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> 2023‑03‑10 Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?)
Richard said:
" ...result of having the design workable with the tools on hand. - so
THAT’s why carvers have so many tools.  But only the ones they actually
need."

Adding only a little to that, in conversation with a conservator of antique
furniture I was told that when the execution of carving on a piece is
examined sometimes elements show evidence of being carved with a
less-than-optimal tool belying a gap in the carver's kit. A gap in the
carver's kit such as making up for missing a gouge of a particular sweep
can be observed from piece to piece giving evidence of association.  Though
identifying a carver doesn't alway identify a joiner - carving would often
be subbed out.

Kevin in cloudy, drizzly Chantilly, trying to rationalize the trip to
Damascus tomorrow by devaluing the things I should be doing instead, and
convincing myself I'm only going to have a doughnut and look.



On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:58 AM Richard Wilson <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
277112 Thomas Conroy 2023‑03‑18 Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?)
The Yorkshireman Galoot (in a sunny Northumbria, where snow is hiding away in
shady places) wrote:
"Isn’t that true for so many of us? After some sweaty hours attempting to make
or repair summit (some thing, Paddy) when you next encounter that same detail,
you make it in such a way that it fits your tools.

"My own conversion was when I discovered that architectural carvings are fitted
to the sweep of the gouges you have on hand, and the crisp results are not the
product of years of apprenticing to handle a gouge and sweep a clean, cut curve
with one blow, but the result of having the design workable with the tools on
hand. - so THAT’s why carvers have so many tools. But only the ones they
actually need."


This is how I was taught to approach designing for gold-tooled bookbindings. Of
course you will someday have the full set of four or five dozen French gouges
(pronounced goodges, not gowdges: brass tools in wooden handles, to make
specific curved gold lines). To go with the different set of dozens more English
gouges, which are different. Plus the extra-thin and extra-thick and random and
irregular curves. Of course you will. In the meantime you use the three curves,
the dot, and the single leaf you have, eked out by a circle that is actually the
"O" from a set of letters. That's your palette. Katharine Adams had less than
that: just one dot, which she arranged in lines.

Though I should say that I got this attitude from my teacher herself, not from
any traditional wisdom. Most bookbinders figure "the more the better." Well, I
do too, I suppose. I just, like Quigley, don't feel obliged to use 'em when I
don't need to.


Tom Conroy
Snow? What's that? Its fifteen years since I saw a flake, and that was on a trip
to Boston, where they brought out the last snowstorm of the spring to interfere
with the workshop I was teaching. Of course, there has been hail on the
sidewalks in San Francisco twice in that time, and once on the roof of my house
in Berkeley.

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