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275846 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2022‑07‑03 | successful failure |
A few weeks ago I was musing how come I had never seen a dedicated bench froe. For splitting off tenon cheeks or small blocks to be driven through the dowel plate. Lots of small jobs around the bench you need to split wood along the grain. I'll admit I had always just used a wide chisel for this. Sort of brutal for fine chisel though. But mostly, the angle of attack sucked being so high above the bench. (work height + chisel height and up on top of the bench, on top of a sacrificial scrap of wood) So I found a piece of steel. I believe it had been part of some kind of custom prybar. It was long enough and wide enough and was about spring tempered for hardness. I cut out what I thought I needed and set to, and massively ground it true. Full taper ground from the spine to -almost- the edge. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/benchfroe2.JPG A froe is never sharp. Dull as a froe is a saying. You want to part the fibers, not cut them. I grabbed a scrap of wood from the scrap box and tried it out. Hot damn! Split easy and true! I was feeling pretty smug when I took a second look. Oh crap, my soft easy work had made a shallow mark across the face of my 1930's vintage Plomb Los Angeles solid brass mechanics mallet!! This would not do! I am not beating up my favorite tools!! http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/plombmallet.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/plombmallet2.jpg So I grabbed a scrap of hard wood from the scrap box and tried that. It worked alright but it --really-- beat the crap out of the wood. Froe clubs always wear fast, but this would be ridiculous. Hitting hardened steel with a steel hammer is never a good idea. Bad things are waiting to happen there. Grrrrrrrrrrr heartbroken, I just set it aside. Mumble mumble mumble ughghghggh A few weeks later I saw it forlornly laying there on the corner of my bench and got an idea. The froe is about spring tempered and industrial steel pipe is barely any softer that that. Its pretty tough. Its supposed to be tough. So I searched though my tiny boneyard of scrap steel and found a piece of full thickness 2" plain pipe. (its at least schedule 40 and maybe schedule 80) I tried it and not only did it part the work, but it left no trace at all on the either the pipe or the tool. Hot Snot I was back in business!! I grabbed a handy limb from my stash (yes I have always saved good sticks when I come across them). I think it was maple from my front yard but it could have been the wild cherry. I made the piece of pipe into a mallet. I searched out some cocobolo to make the froe handle. I always liked coffin shaped bowie knife handles so I did it at least a little of that flavor. Got myself a bench froe!! http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/benchfroe1.JPG Now if I just had a perfect place to stash it between uses...........................haaahaahahaaha yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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275848 | Peter Marquis-Kyle <peter@m...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
Nice one, Scott! Your froe reminds me of my old glazier's hacking knife. Unlike your stylish froe, the hacking knife has leather scales riveted on, and is made of softish steel, suitable for hitting with an ordinary hammer--and it works nicely as a bench froe. -- Peter Marquis-Kyle conservation architect 5 Colton Street, Highgate Hill, Queensland, 4101, Australia phone (07) 3844 3501 email peter@m... web www.marquis-kyle.com.au |
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275850 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
You're talking about a knife froe, Scott. Like as not, a necessary tool for sash makers and a lot of furniture makers back in the day for making the pins that held just about everything. Then it was a common enough bench tool. I forget where I first saw one in use (maybe on The Woodwright's Shop), but take a block of wood, say two or three inches deep. Tie a string around it, lay out a grid. Then whip out your knife froe and split out a whole bunch of stock for pins. Nifty, I thought, but I kept using a chisel to make the occasional pin. Then came coopering demos. Needed a bunch of 2, 2 1/2 inch dowels to make up the heads. So I found and bought a 19th Century English knife froe. Made by the dozens in Sheffield. Mine's much prettier, but figure 7 in this article shows 3 examples; https://craftsofnj.org/index.php/froes-by-hank-allen Mike in Woodland. |
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275851 | gary allan may | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
That's a good idea, Scott. Drive the froe with a length of black iron pipe. I'm on it. thanks again; gam in OlyWA/USA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 05:14:31 PM PDT, scottg |
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275852 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
nice, scott. that’s a great project! bill |
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275853 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
Geeze Mike You were hiding them all this time? Maybe they were common in Sheffield, but 10,000 yard sales and 8000 antique shops and 1000 swap meets digging deep, I never saw a single one. You could have just sent me a sack of them you know hahaahhaah How close can the picture of the froe be blown up? Anyone?? If you can get in tight you'll see what a custom ground counterbore will do. I ground it to fit the standard cutlers rivets. I will be pissed if they one day adopt another size as standard. haahah I have ground counterbores for the 2 most common size saw screws too What a pleasure to use. I wish saw medallions would make up their mind .......lol -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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275854 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
Nice work as always, Scott! Dennis -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
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275856 | the_tinker <tinker@z...> | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
Oooo. I just saw a very used-up and busted tobacco chopper at an antique store. The blade (and little else) were there. Photo 7 gave me an idea... |
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275866 | Chuck Taylor | 2022‑07‑03 | Re: successful failure |
Scott, you wrote: ====begin snip==== A few weeks ago I was musing how come I had never seen a dedicated bench froe. For splitting off tenon cheeks or small blocks to be driven through the dowel plate. Lots of small jobs around the bench you need to split wood along the grain. ...So I found a piece of steel. ... I cut out what I thought I needed and set to, and massively ground it true. Full taper ground from the spine to -almost- the edge. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/benchfroe2.JPG ====end snip==== A truly impressive tool! Easy of the eyes too! For those of us who lack the skills to make a tool like that, what would you think of using a "Batoning Chisel", available from Lee Valley, for similar functions? Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA |
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275870 | gary allan may | 2022‑07‑04 | Re: successful failure |
Hi Chuck! I'd say 'no' to the 'batoning chisel', on account of the chisel edge. I think a symmetrical edge is called for. Although, for tenon cheeks, it might be better.... Just a thought, there are many cheap and dinky meat cleavers in Sallie's and Goodwilly's kitchen tool bins---not many nice ones---of course, but even a cheesy and unsharpenable HSS souvenir from "The Sizzler's Belt Buster Platter" ---one of which I actually own---would make a nice little froe...for now, not for me, I'm busy looking for a short piece of 2" drill casing to make a full- size froe club like Scott's. Wish me luck. see you tailgating at Best In The West? hope so; gam in OlyWA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 04:06:38 PM PDT, Chuck Taylor via groups.io |
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275871 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2022‑07‑04 | Re: successful failure |
Chuck Taylor asked: > For those of us who lack the skills to make a tool like that, what would you think of using a "Batoning Chisel", available from Lee Valley, for similar functions? Probably could. But froes are knife "sharpened" (recalling Scott's phrase, "dull as a froe'), not chisel sharpened. They're meant to divide the fibers of wood, not cut them. A bit of time with a file can turn a few inches of mild steel into a froe edge. I think most of us are capable of that. But the "batoning chisel" strikes me as (inverting Mick Jagger's immortal words) "the things they used to do we think are new." One day a Japanese-American co-worker showed up with an odd looking tool, blade about six inches long, that had belonged to his father (born circa 1920). It looked like a very short tanto in shirasaya mounts. https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/Tanto-Tamahagane-Antique-Japanese-hira- zukuri-tanto-yoroidoshi-in-shirasaya-Japan-Muromachi- period-1333-1573/32621773-tanto_tamahagane-21.12.19-catawiki But the blade was straight with no taper to the tip, and the tip was about 75 degrees to the back of the blade. All chisel sharpened. His father had been a carpenter. Well, I was hooked! A few months later I found one on eBay. It's sitting on my desk as I type. Samurai wood working! Before "batoning." The blade on mine is 7 1/4 inches from the hilt to the tip. Does wonders cleaning up a mortise. Can be used like a drawknife, pulled or pushed, or a paring chisel. It's a long version of a batoning knife long before anybody thought up the name and announced it as a new invention. Mike in Woodland |
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275872 | Phil E. <pedgerton66@g...> | 2022‑07‑04 | Re: successful failure |
Most of the froes I see here in the Appalachian Mtns. are chisel sharpened. But they are ALL "dull as a froe". Phil E. |
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275916 | the_tinker <tinker@z...> | 2022‑07‑12 | Re: successful failure |
So I was near the store where I saw the tobacco cutter and it was still there. Grabbed it and would like to report the knife part makes a passable light duty bench froe. My chisels are happy. https://mega.nz/file/FBkWkRAQ#ZL4BHr01zcHICeOPuQWHawdaXISOeUodhRTqCSmx4T0 |
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275918 | Greg Isola <gregorywisola@g...> | 2022‑07‑13 | Re: successful failure |
> > Eureka, a tobacco cutter: > https://mega.nz/file/FBkWkRAQ#ZL4BHr01zcHICeOPuQWHawdaXISOeUodhRTqCSmx4T0 > > Thanks for sharing this--and for adding tobacco cutter to my flea market > target list! I split lots of small bits of quartersawn spruce at the bench > when building stringed instruments, and I've used everything from > (relatively) dull chisels to strips of saw blade to an old, badly reground > butter knife. It all works ok, but so far nothing is optimal as a real > small-scale bench froe, especially for longer pieces that need actual > riving. I've also looked at the Lee Valley batoning chisel, but I don't > think it's the right tool for this, either, for reasons already detailed > here. Anyway, I'm now on the hunt for a tobacco knife or a small > cleaver-type item to repurpose. Sure, I could make one from scratch, but > adding a new item to the target list gives me a reason to get out of bed > early and meet the fellas at the flea (plus the breakfast burritos and > decent company). Take care, all of you, Greg Isola Alameda, CA |
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275919 | gary allan may | 2022‑07‑14 | Re: successful failure |
GGs: I once had a local woman try to sell me a 'tobacco cutter' made in Massachusetts clearly labelled as a 'Lion Miter Trimmer'. She had owned it for many years, and displayed it in her restaurant; Jules Mae's of Georgetown WA, along with other doodads from the woods. I know I'm not the only one who told her 'It's not for tobacco.' Point is, I've been watching people smoke, sniff and chew for 60 years or so, and I never saw anyone use one of these to cut tobacco. Them as couldn't bite off a chew always used a pocketknife, as I recall. Nice knife, though, whatever its intended use. and best, to all galoots everywhere-gam in OlyWA On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 02:05:59 PM PDT, the_tinker |
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275920 | Greg Isola <gregorywisola@g...> | 2022‑07‑14 | Re: successful failure |
In typical fashion, Gary raises a solid point... > I've been watching people smoke, sniff and chew for 60 years or so, and I > never saw anyone use one of these to cut tobacco. > Same here, and me neither. But I was thinking this "tobacco knife" was for use a bit further upstream, as in maybe part of the tobacco product manufacturing process (e.g., cutting the leaves to shape for rolling cigars, etc.). Huge caveat here: I know nothing of consequence about "the tobacco product manufacturing process"! I just thought this tool was maybe for something in that realm, as opposed to something for the end user. Anyway, I still want one! Take care, all of you, Greg Isola Alameda, CA |
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275921 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2022‑07‑14 | Re: successful failure |
My paternal grandmother worked as a cigar maker in Detroit (WW1 timeframe). I believe they would roll the leaves into a cigar and use those devices to cut to length, so probably more of a "production" device. But don't hold me to that... Dennis Heyza -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
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275922 | Tom S <twschmutz1@g...> | 2022‑07‑15 | Re: successful failure |
Tobacco cutters were used by stores/ individuals to cut a piece to chew when tobacco was sold in larger pressed blocks rather than loose in bags or smaller pieces. They were also used by individuals to cut pieces to chew from cured tobacco farm twisted up leaves (often called home spun). Some of the old local stores would also buy and sell home spun. Tom Schmutz. |
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275923 | the_tinker <tinker@z...> | 2022‑07‑15 | Re: successful failure |
What Tom said matched my understanding. They were used in small general stores to cut plugs of tobacco to any length the customer wanted (or had the money for). The one I destroyed had that knife pinned to a small standoff mounted to a small wooden board with a wood fence on one edge. There was a extension on the opposite end from the handle with a pivot hole in it that I hacksawed off and filed clean. Was not sharpened. More like a tobacco pincher than cutter. -JP |
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275924 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2022‑07‑15 | Re: successful failure |
a video i watched on youtube (from some historical museum, i can't find the video again) suggested it was also used to shred tobacco for pipe or cigarette smoking. you'd just push the pressed block to its edge, just past, and guillotine it, step and repeat. this was, of course, showing one of the champion framed versions with the gold pinstriping :) bill felton, ca just sing "curse sir walter raleigh, he was such a stupid git" |
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276191 | Curt Seeliger <seeligerc@g...> | 2022‑08‑18 | Re: successful failure |
Some time ago, Scott wrote: > So I found a piece of steel. ... > I cut out what I thought I needed and set to, and massively ground it true... > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/benchfroe2.JPG Michael wrote: > ... a 19th Century English knife froe. Made by the dozens in Sheffield. > https://craftsofnj.org/index.php/froes-by-hank-allen and The_Tinker wrote: > So I was near the store where I saw the tobacco cutter and it was still there. > ... My chisels are happy. > https://mega.nz/file/FBkWkRAQ#ZL4BHr01zcHICeOPuQWHawdaXISOeUodhRTqCSmx4T0 So to round this out, here's a recent blog entry about Jennie Alexander's hacking knife, with enough description to have your local blacksmith make one for you. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2022/08/18/jennies-hacking-knife/ |
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276192 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2022‑08‑19 | Re: successful failure |
I have several photos of knife froes, all probably 19th Century. However, I don't have the means to post them on this list. I can send them as attachments privately to someone able to post them on list. They're apparently uncommon, though not really rare, What I have found are all handled like the tobacco cutter. I found them in my research on coopering (the heads are dowelled together), but useful to any craftsman who needed 2 to 4 inch dowels, for doors, window sash, wainscotting, etc. Mike in Woodland |
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276193 | Ken Vaughan <kvaughan@a...> | 2022‑08‑19 | Re: successful failure |
I have a similar in the green house --- currently made and sold https://www.amazon.com/Barebones-Japanese-Stainless-Resistant-Finished/dp/B09QQ9 19J9/ref=sr_1_3?crid=DPLLW4G762KW&keywords=japanese+nata+tool&qid=1660915440&spr efix=Japanese+nata%2Caps%2C338&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae- 5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc (Amazon search on Japanese NATA will get you lots of choices of similar but different blades) Ken in Juneau |
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276194 | the_tinker <tinker@z...> | 2022‑08‑19 | Re: successful failure |
Great read. I saw this at a craft fair in old Zoar village Ohio a couple weeks ago: https://mega.nz/file/FBkWkRAQ#ZL4BHr01zcHICeOPuQWHawdaXISOeUodhRTqCSmx4T0 Have the gents card at home but I'm on the road now. I will post his contact info when I get back, Really nicely made and somewhat pricey but a real user for sure. Great young man trying to do old time things with blacksmithing and woodworking. -JP |
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276195 | the_tinker <tinker@z...> | 2022‑08‑19 | Re: successful failure |
Oops. Wrong link. https://mega.nz/file/VB1QybxZ#aA93uV9Fa6BWzrHKPw_b3X_fR_8CKt-kPJ7s-bzNLWI Sorry. |
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