OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

275761 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2022‑06‑19 gluing tenons
I am looking through some old ww magazines, and came across an article 
on building storm doors by William Sinnott in Woodworking International. 
In it, he describes tenon glue-up for stub tenons with foxtail wedges as 
follows: "... enter the wedges and apply a good exterior glue to the 
half of the tenon nearest the shoulder. Then cramp up. It is bad 
practice to apply glue to mortises, for it is important only half of the 
tenon is glued." He doesn't explain why.

Comments?

Does anyone follow this practice?

Don

-- 

God's away on business - Tom Waits

"...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder
275762 Pete Bergstrom <petebergstrom@g...> 2022‑06‑19 Re: gluing tenons
For any piece anticipated to experience large temperature and moisture
swings (I'm not sure I can imagine something more extreme than a storm
door), this makes a lot of sense to maximally manage the differential wood
expansion to prevent joint failure.

While it's not a storm door, I just did a glue-up last weekend of a couple
of small drawer enclosures that used dados to hold the drawer separator
boards, and I only glued one end of each joint (i.e., on the visible face;
this left the other end of the joint to float a bit in the provided space.
Therefore, I'll say I'm following the practice.

Pete
North of Seattle
275763 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2022‑06‑19 Re: gluing tenons
That makes a lot of sense in drawer construction where you have a long 
divider cross-grain to a the cabinet depth. Minimizing cross-grain 
forces is certainly desirable. But I would have thought that the 
cross-grain dimensions are so small in most M&T joints, particularly 
with stub tenons, that the forces involved would be quite small. I guess 
only gluing the shoulder end of the tenon helps prevent a gap developing 
at the shoulder as she stile expands & contracts. Better safe than 
sorry, I suppose.

Don

On 2022-06-19 11:18 a.m., Pete Bergstrom wrote:
> For any piece anticipated to experience large temperature and moisture 
> swings (I'm not sure I can imagine something more extreme than a storm 
> door), this makes a lot of sense to maximally manage the differential 
> wood expansion to prevent joint failure.
>
> While it's not a storm door, I just did a glue-up last weekend of a 
> couple of small drawer enclosures that used dados to hold the drawer 
> separator boards, and I only glued one end of each joint (i.e., on the 
> visible face; this left the other end of the joint to float a bit in 
> the provided space. Therefore, I'll say I'm following the practice.
>
> Pete
> North of Seattle
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:05 AM Don Schwartz  wrote:
>
>
>     I am looking through some old ww magazines, and came across an
>     article
>     on building storm doors by William Sinnott in Woodworking
>     International.
>     In it, he describes tenon glue-up for stub tenons with foxtail
>     wedges as
>     follows: "... enter the wedges and apply a good exterior glue to the
>     half of the tenon nearest the shoulder. Then cramp up. It is bad
>     practice to apply glue to mortises, for it is important only half
>     of the
>     tenon is glued." He doesn't explain why.
>
>     Comments?
>
>     Does anyone follow this practice?
>
>     Don
>
>     -- 
>
>     God's away on business - Tom Waits
>
>     "...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder
>
>
>
>     
>
>

-- 

God's away on business - Tom Waits

"...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder
275766 RAY MCDONALD 2022‑06‑20 Re: gluing tenons
Been making faithful reproduction 1800s storm doors for 50 Plus years. Never had
a problem with a mortise joint failure. Carefully selected wood , more inportant
than aything else.
275767 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2022‑06‑20 Re: gluing tenons
An intriguing discussion about that old and favourite joint, the Mortice and
Tenon.  Anything starting ' I am looking through some old ww magazines,’  gets
my vote.

Snippage throughout

The proposition…  Don stated
>>  In it, he describes tenon glue-up for stub tenons with foxtail wedges as
follows: "... enter the wedges and apply a good exterior glue to the   half of
the tenon nearest the shoulder. Then cramp up. It is bad  practice to apply glue
to mortises, for it is important only half of the  tenon is glued." He doesn't
explain why.
>>    Comments?
>>    Does anyone follow this practice?


and Pete says..
> On 2022-06-19 11:18 a.m., Pete Bergstrom wrote:
>> 
>> While it's not a storm door, I just did a glue-up last weekend of a couple of
small drawer enclosures that used dados to hold the drawer separator boards, and
I only glued one end of each joint (i.e., on the visible face; this left the
other end of the joint to float a bit in the provided space.

And Don suggests...
> On 19 Jun 2022, at 23:09, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> That makes a lot of sense in drawer construction where you have a long divider
cross-grain to a the cabinet depth.

It seems to me that there is a lot of slop in the original statement.  There is
no context. No dimensions.  Does the author include ALL M&T joints in his
statement, or only stub tenons, or only fox-wedged tenons. Is he applying glue
for its holding power, or for its caulking properties?
 However, the concept is an interesting one, and one I do not recall seeing in
print before.

Dimensions is clearly important.  You don’t have much shrinkage in the mortice
material if the tenon is a bare half inch in length.  You have appreciable
shrinkage if it is 4 inches, or more.  But then, if you are using a tenon 4
inches long, you would surely be looking at pegging the joint, and in terms of
the strength of joint you no longer rely on glue.  Indeed, most timber framing
joints rely on mechanical strength, and good design, to place the stresses where
we want them.
Back to the item - It is fox wedged, so its mechanical strength has been
enhanced.  It will not withdraw from the joint.  So why glue?  I suggest that it
is to weatherseal the joint, given its likely exposure to driving rain and so
forth.  Joint strength has been assured by the wedges, and to prevent water
ingress to the joint, glue is used to seal it.  In that case, then of course you
would not want the jointline to suffer compromise by any wood movement.

The question of a divider is almost separate.  Many dividers are dry.  I have
some fine examples of box interiors with dividers which slide in and out of
their positions.  This may be very desirable to aid cleaning out, or it may not
if the divider is substantial, and contributing strength. But then, A divider
would normally have its grain running in line with the drawer body, so a full
glue surface shouldn’t compromise the joint when the drawer side and divider are
vertical, and similar timber (in expansion terms)

All of which leads me to say
‘I haven’t used this sugegstion, and I’m not sure I would.  But because of it
I’ll surely think a bit harder when I next have a m&t joint running cross grain.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot 
in Northumberland






-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
275768 Erik Levin 2022‑06‑20 Re: gluing tenons
RAY wrote:

>Been making faithful reproduction 1800s storm doors for 50 Plus years. Never
had
>a problem with a mortise joint failure. Carefully selected wood , more
inportant
>than aything else.


Having little experience in M&T joinery for exterior use, and none with stock
appropriately sized for a screen door, I have never really considered this
issue. What goes into wood selection here? And what design goes into a good,
reliable joint?

I have seen a fair bit about interior doors, and the couple reproductions to
original I have done were for originals that don't match the books show, so I am
truly curious, in particular as I want to eventually do the doors on my house.


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
275769 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑06‑20 Re: gluing tenons
Do I assume that doors are never draw bored, which makes this discussion pretty
much a 1 trick pony.....??????

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
275770 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2022‑06‑20 Re: gluing tenons
I think it's a fair bet that storm or exterior entry doors are almost 
never draw-bored. Exposed joinery wouldn't enhance their appearance.

Don

On 2022-06-20 2:07 p.m., Frank Filippone wrote:
>
> Do I assume that doors are never draw bored, which makes this 
> discussion pretty much a 1 trick pony.....??????
>
>
> Frank Filippone
> BMWRed735i@G...
> On 6/20/2022 9:33 AM, Richard Wilson wrote:
>> An intriguing discussion about that old and favourite joint, the Mortice and
Tenon.  Anything starting ' I am looking through some old ww magazines,’  gets
my vote.
>>
>> Snippage throughout
>>
>> The proposition…  Don stated
>>>>   In it, he describes tenon glue-up for stub tenons with foxtail wedges as
follows: "... enter the wedges and apply a good exterior glue to the   half of
the tenon nearest the shoulder. Then cramp up. It is bad  practice to apply glue
to mortises, for it is important only half of the  tenon is glued." He doesn't
explain why.
>>>>     Comments?
>>>>     Does anyone follow this practice?
>> and Pete says..
>>> On 2022-06-19 11:18 a.m., Pete Bergstrom wrote:
>>>> While it's not a storm door, I just did a glue-up last weekend of a couple
of small drawer enclosures that used dados to hold the drawer separator boards,
and I only glued one end of each joint (i.e., on the visible face; this left the
other end of the joint to float a bit in the provided space.
>> And Don suggests...
>>> On 19 Jun 2022, at 23:09, Don Schwartz  wrote:
>>>
>>> That makes a lot of sense in drawer construction where you have a long
divider cross-grain to a the cabinet depth.
>> It seems to me that there is a lot of slop in the original statement.  There
is no context. No dimensions.  Does the author include ALL M&T joints in his
statement, or only stub tenons, or only fox-wedged tenons. Is he applying glue
for its holding power, or for its caulking properties?
>>   However, the concept is an interesting one, and one I do not recall seeing
in print before.
>>
>> Dimensions is clearly important.  You don’t have much shrinkage in the
mortice material if the tenon is a bare half inch in length.  You have
appreciable shrinkage if it is 4 inches, or more.  But then, if you are using a
tenon 4 inches long, you would surely be looking at pegging the joint, and in
terms of the strength of joint you no longer rely on glue.  Indeed, most timber
framing joints rely on mechanical strength, and good design, to place the
stresses where we want them.
>> Back to the item - It is fox wedged, so its mechanical strength has been
enhanced.  It will not withdraw from the joint.  So why glue?  I suggest that it
is to weatherseal the joint, given its likely exposure to driving rain and so
forth.  Joint strength has been assured by the wedges, and to prevent water
ingress to the joint, glue is used to seal it.  In that case, then of course you
would not want the jointline to suffer compromise by any wood movement.
>>
>> The question of a divider is almost separate.  Many dividers are dry.  I have
some fine examples of box interiors with dividers which slide in and out of
their positions.  This may be very desirable to aid cleaning out, or it may not
if the divider is substantial, and contributing strength. But then, A divider
would normally have its grain running in line with the drawer body, so a full
glue surface shouldn’t compromise the joint when the drawer side and divider are
vertical, and similar timber (in expansion terms)
>>
>> All of which leads me to say
>> ‘I haven’t used this sugegstion, and I’m not sure I would.  But because of it
I’ll surely think a bit harder when I next have a m&t joint running cross grain.
>>
>> Richard Wilson
>> Yorkshireman Galoot
>> in Northumberland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

-- 

God's away on business - Tom Waits

"...it's just a humpty dumpty world" - Ry Cooder

Recent Bios FAQ