OldTools Archive
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273914 | Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> | 2021‑06‑10 | VCI Paper |
Does anyone know where I could purchase just a sheet or two of VCI paper? I'd like to make some chisel edge proctors and I'm thinking of making sleeves out of VCI paper and then dipping that in Plasti Dip. Thoughts? -- I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food. |
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273915 | Erik Levin | 2021‑06‑10 | Re: VCI Paper |
Dan wrote: > I'm thinking of making sleeves out of > VCI paper and then dipping that in Plasti Dip I don't know that VCI paper is really the best choice here. The life of VCI paper is not the life of the chisel. Depending on storage (sealed case, drawer or cabinet that gets opened and closed, exposed to free air) the life may be a year or three down to weeks or less. It releases the vapor to maintain an equilibrium, and any loss will be made up until the paper is depleted. Leave a piece on the bench for a week and it is done. The shelf life isn't forever, either. If these are for users, and corrosion is that big a worry, you might make edge protectors that can tolerate the tool being oiled/waxed for storage, or make a case you can keep VCI paper in. *** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply address(es) may not match the originating address |
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273919 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑06‑11 | Re: VCI Paper |
Yup, I would not go there either. I have VCIs in all my tool chests and cupboards, and it's the closed environment that is critical. (And they are almost all due for a replacement.) The VCI works well from the factory to the sales emporium to the garage, but after that, unless you keep it in a closed environment, it won't last long. But, if you are determined, Bullfrog VCI is my choice. The Rust Store sells stuff, but getting 100 sheets, or 35# does not seem ideal I'd imagine your best bet is to buy stuff wrapped in VCI, then reuse it. Kirk in HMB, not very helpful today. On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 12:37 PM Erik Levin via groups.io |
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273925 | Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> | 2021‑06‑11 | Re: VCI Paper |
I was wondering how long the VCI paper would work, and kind of assumed it wouldn't last long if it "out in the open". That being said, I'm going to give it a try as an experiment. Chris Schwarz recommended wrapping chisel tips with painter's tape (sticky side out) and then dipping in Plasi-Dip, and I know others use things like business cards and Plasti-Dip. If it doesn't work, I'm really not out anything. I think I'll rob a little VCI paper from some of the packagings I've received when purchasing other blades. -Dan -- I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food. |
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273928 | Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> | 2021‑06‑11 | Re: VCI Paper |
I use the painter’s tape/Plasti-Dip method. Works great and is easily replaceable when/if they wear out. Works well on gouges too, but requires a bit more finesse getting the protective tips back on, especially on the deeper sweeps. Stephen |
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273929 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑06‑12 | Re: VCI Paper |
I can’t help suggesting that this is over thinking. First - what are you protecting from? Are the chisels travelling? In a bag? In a box? As individuals or is it a chisel family outing? How long do they need protecting? Are these protectors for lifetime use, or just a one or two off travel/job protection. Do they have to be slip on and cling on? As you’re talking vpi then you’re after rust prevention not just edge protection. Comments so far have pointed out how short lived vpi is, and if you are making up protectors for the tips, the rest of the blade is open to rusting in humid conditions. The traditional thing would be a tool roll that protects the whole thing, but leather needs to be ?vegetable tanned? To be rust safe. You get something which keeps them safe from edge damage though. If you substitute cloth or canvas for leather, you can impregnate the material with a light oil to keep rust away. If you need to use lots of oil, then you may be better to use a non polymerising oil that will be ok for wooden tool handles if it gets on them. If you are needing to take some chisels to a work site, I’d go with a roll, ,or if you are just needing a quick and temporary something, then find some closed cell foam the kind of stuff used for packing items like computers or printers, stuff that doesn’t collapse easily. Cut a chunk as large or small as you want, jab the blade in -it will hold because the stuff is stiff. A wrap of tape to stop it from being able to split out, and the job is done. Oil your chisel before you put it in there, and the oil will form a rust averse housing. You DO keep an oily rag in a tin if you have a fight with humidity, don’t you? That last is quick, cheap, replaceable, all the things a galoot looks for. At the other end of the scale would be a fitted box for as many chisels as are in your travelling set. Me? Cheap and cheerful, respect the edge, every time. Richard Wilson Blue sky, blue sea, the Mediterranean comes to the North Sea (German Ocean, Wolfgang) > On 11 Jun 2021, at 17:32, Dan Beck |
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273930 | Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> | 2021‑06‑12 | Re: VCI Paper |
I haven’t really paid close attention to the VCI topic, but I use a great deal of VCI paper at my plant. It works, but it must be in a closed container, such as a corrugated, taped box. In the open, the vapors bleed off. A better method for us, is a dip in “rust ban” liquid, but that is much more costly. I’m not sure what the original poster was after, but a quick wipe with 3 in 1 oil would give far more protection. T. Anthony M. Zaffuto, President Metaltech, Inc. 3547 Watson Hwy. DuBois, PA. 15801 www.metaltech-pm.com (814) 375-9399 (814) 541-5019 (cell) |
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273931 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2021‑06‑12 | Re: VCI Paper |
Tool roll leather: absolutely agree must use veggie tan leather. Most upholstery and clothing leathers (thinner, softer, brightly colored) are chrome tanned. Trust me, even if it has a cloth lining, chrome tanned leather will rust your tools (acidic vapors from the embedded chromium salts I'm told, not an expert) . Purchasing small amounts of veggie tanned leather is pretty easy over the internet. Many suppliers, local saddle shops for people in the countryside, city leather hobby shops etc Cheers -- Claudio On Sat., Jun. 12, 2021, 10:46 a.m. Richard Wilson, < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: |
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273933 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑06‑13 | Re: VCI Paper |
Claudio wrote:Tool roll leather: absolutely agree must use veggie tan leather. Mostupholstery and clothing leathers (thinner, softer, brightly colored) are chrome tanned. Trust me, even if it has a cloth lining, chrome tanned leather will rust your tools (acidic vapors from the embedded chromium salts I'm told, not an expert).... -- Claudio Any leather will cause leather to rust if left in contact. DAMHIKT. Lets just say I was really proud of all those leather sheaths I made, before I threw them out. Leather may not cause rust (and corrosion of other metals) right away, but sooner or later it inevitably will. And once you have a spot of rust inside a sheath, it will catalyze more rust in the same place no matter how often you clean the knife. The only cure is to throw the sheath away. For most chisels and binding knives that aren't being used continually, I now just wrap two or three turns of masking tape around the tip, with about 1/8" sticking out beyond the edge and with the first layer well down into contact with the metal. The pressure-sensitive adhesive, horrible in so many ways and for so many things, actually preserves the steel against rust as well as anything I know; I think the adhesive seals out air and water vapour. I turn over the outer end of the tape for about a quarter of an inch to make it easy to find the spot to start peeling it off when I want to use the tool. The bit extending beyond the edge prevents things from being cut with amazing success. If the tape ever does go bad, it doesn't corrode the steel; and if worse comes to worst and it hardens it can still be scraped off with relative ease. Many years ago I bought a very fine binders' paring knife which had been sitting in a damp garage for fifty years. Adhesive tape had been wrapped around the base of the blade for comfort in use. When I removed the tape, the steel was pristine under it. All the rest of the blade was pitted as deeply as any tool I have ever succeeded in bringing back into use. I wore out a blue diamond stone, slicked it down to useless, flattening the back of that one knife, working at it full time for almost a week (I was young---what can I say?) Once I had the back flat and the edge sharp, it turned out to be first-rate; it has been my favorite paring knife for about thirty-five years now. I'm a great fan of adhesive tape as a rust preventative measure on steel. For leather paring knives and chisels that are in frequent use, I use heavy paper or light cardboard to wrap a little scabbard, two or three inches long and two or three wraps, with the end turned over the edge two or three times and all held together with masking tape. White paper and board, not the newsprint and floor sweepings in cereal boxes; newsprint contains corrosive impurities. These are ugly but they take about ten minutes to make, and can be thrown away immediately if rust develops, without tugging at the heartstrings. Tom Conroy Berkeley |
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273935 | Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> | 2021‑06‑13 | Re: VCI Paper |
Tom, I’ve had a set of LN chisels housed in their leather tool roll for at least 25 years. They are not my everyday chisels. Not a speck of rust. Even more remarkable (if leather is going to be accused of contributing to rust) is my dad’s WW II military issued knife, complete with belt-looped leather sheath. This 80+ year old treasure has been removed from its sheath no more than 10 times in the last 60 years. Again, not a speck of rust. I assume the LN tool roll is veggie tanned leather, but I have no idea what type the knife sheath is. Since we both live in the SF Bay Area with similar climate conditions, I wonder if something else may have contributed to your rust issues. Stephen |
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273939 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑06‑13 | Re: VCI Paper |
Stephen Rosenthal wrote: "I’ve had a set of LN chisels housed in their leather tool roll for at least 25 years. They are not my everyday chisels. Not a speck of rust. Even more remarkable (if leather is going to be accused of contributing to rust) is my dad’s WW II military issued knife, complete with belt-looped leather sheath. This 80+ year old treasure has been removed from its sheath no more than 10 times in the last 60 years. Again, not a speck of rust. I assume the LN tool roll is veggie tanned leather, but I have no idea what type the knife sheath is. "Since we both live in the SF Bay Area with similar climate conditions, I wonder if something else may have contributed to your rust issues." Certainly there other causes of rust in my house. I live directly over the original course of one of Berkeley's culverted creeks; although the culvert (the storm drain) now runs under the street next to my house, the land still goes steeply uphill from me in three directions. For decades the house was shaded by a large volunteer live oak that grew two feet from it and spread its canopy over almost half the roof (This could be seen in Google's satellite photos). We only got French drains a couple of years ago. The house is just slightly damp--- nothing serious, but slightly. The problem was worse during several decades when there was effectively no heat in the house, and the humidity and heat cycled grossly every day during winter. I have other dampness issues, for instance persistent slight mildew on certain bookbindings--- again, not much and not everything, but undeniably there. Contact with leather won't cause rust in conditions of complete absence of moisture (or air); it just speeds things up when moisture is there. I have never had rust on every tool, or on much of any tool. And some of my leather sheaths (or on-the-bench edge protectors) have not yet developed rust, despite 30-plus years of use. But the first time you find rust (or mildew) it is like the first time you find a flea in your bed: you feel vile, degraded, ashamed. You wonder what you have done wrong, after so many years of noble freedom from filth. And you try to figure out what caused it. For my rust issues, I saw that it occurred disproportionately on the the tools with leather sheaths I made for them back in the 1980s. After the rust was removed from the knifes it soon recurred in exactly the same spots and even shapes, and then I dissected the sheaths and found deep rust stains and surface rust on the insides of the sheaths. There was no way to remove it so I got rid of the sheaths, even though I had made them properly with freehand awl-and-harness-needle saddle stitch and was proud of them. I suspect that the difference between the sheaths that developed rust and those that didn't was that I must have used the rusty ones on damp days, so that removal of the knife and replacement in the sheath pumped damp air into the sheath--- but that is just an onagered (wild-assed) guess. I was bolstered in my distrust of leather for storage when I learned that at least some collectors of historic firearms don't keep their treasures in their holsters, especially if the holsters are historic too, and old enough to have accumulated acids from degradation or air pollution. Leather does absorb corrosive air pollution, which is one of the main causes of decay of leather bookbindings, as I know in far too much detail from professional knowledge of book conservation. If anything I trust vegetable-tanned leather less than chrome-tanned, since in book uses the veg-tanned leather is far more susceptible to "red rot" and other decay, especially from air polluted sulfur oxides, which are catalyzed into sulfuric acid in the leather Rust behaves erratically and unpredictably, almost as if it were consciously malicious. I once gave a demonstration of tool repair and rust removal for a national hand bookbinding group, and I needed rusty spokeshaves and spring dividers to demonstrate on (four repetitions so that all attendees could get a close-up view). I couldn't find any rusty ones in several visits to the Alameda Flea, so I decided to deliberately cause rust on some poor tools ones that I had anyway. I couldn't get it to happen. I wet the spokeshaves and left them overnight; then wet them and left them outside several days; then wet them and left them half buried in the yard, and cover the bits that stuck out with dead leaves. No rust. I had a year lead time, so there was plenty of opportunity to experiment. Eventually I managed to get a bit of rust on a few tools, enough to serve as examples, and did my talk successfully. After that I started finding rusty spokeshaves and spring dividers again. Rust never sleeps, they say; but it sure naps at times, then wakes up again when you least want it to. I prefer to act pessimistically, and don't use any leather for tool storage. Tom Conroy Berkeley |
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273943 | Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> | 2021‑06‑14 | Re: VCI Paper |
Tom, I'm going to file that in my future-use bit bucket! Since the mid 1980s, I've been using a kindred concept uttered by an IBM engineer when a reporter inquired how his team had developed a certain idea. He replied that it was the product of SWAG research. He later clarified - Stupid Wild Assed Guess. Tim Feeding ducks in the backyard this rainy morning. On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 6:36 PM Thomas Conroy via groups.io |
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273977 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑06‑20 | Re: Leather types and contents. WAS:VCI paper/chisel tip protectors |
Brian gives us the skinny on leather. > On 19 Jun 2021, at 23:26, Brian R |
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273978 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑06‑20 | Re: Leather types and contents. WAS:VCI paper/chisel tip protectors |
My mom's mom’s family started a business in the 1850’s that made it into the 1960’s - Binz Hide and Tallow in St. Louis MO. In addition to processing hides, they collected meat scraps from places all over town and rendered them. I was never there, but my mom said the smell was horendous and stuck on your clothes. When I think of leather, I think of this Ed Minch |
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273980 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑06‑20 | Re: Leather types and contents. WAS:VCI paper/chisel tip protectors |
Really cool article Brian, thank you!! Considerably more than I knew. > My mom's mom’s family started a business in the 1850’s that made it > into the 1960’s - Binz Hide and Tallow in St. Louis MO. Cool family history Ed!! And yes all tanneries were consigned well away from town limits since way back haahahhaha. Soap was often a secondary product of tanneries. There was an accidental byproduct of tanneries. Tanneries were pretty much always located near a water source. Water being integral to the trade. Ooze, the vats of fluid needed to tan leather only had a certain working life. It was cleaned out periodically and dumped into the river or cove. Trash was also dumped along with the cleanout waste. The properties of ooze will "stain" glass when left in it for 100 years. The stain is brilliant rainbow iridescence. The old locations of the planets greatest tanneries are now the source of some extremely desirable glass. I came by leather work honest. It was my first real skill learned and my first professional "craftsman" trade. My folks gave me a Tandy leather kit for Christmas once, and it happened a neighbor was a leather worker, so I had her to pester for advice. My mom was a "Yard Sailor" since forever so more leather tools were pretty easy for me to find. Then in 7th grade, first year of junior high, my school required a semester of leather work and a semester of woodshop. Both these changed my life even further. At 16 I took a job in the back room of Mothers Rock Shop when they opened. The first hippie / record shop of OKC. I made all the standard fare of the day. Including cutting miles and miles and miles of fringe! hahahah Headbands, arm bands, purses and small pouches of every configuration. One of my popular designs was inlaid brightly colored woven ribbon. Soon after that adventure I took a job as a frame carpenter and my real wood life began. I still have leather tools of course. I lost my first ones in a bad breakup with a girlfriend, at 18. :) But most leather tools are not terribly hard to find and I will still pick them up when offered cheap. Can't help it. It in my nature. hahah Fortunately for us woodworkers the days of "leather that eats your tools" (corrosive) are pretty much over. I have, over the years, made any number of sheaths and pouches and covers for all kinds of tools from all kinds of leather. And hardly ever had them eat my tools. Nearly all do a fine job of protection from corrosion. Chinese imports are making many of the old hard to find expensive leather tools very very cheap. But like all imported things, when first introduced they were giving them away, but the price is already rising now. Quality is for the most part useable (with maybe a little work) and in some cases just outstanding! Snaps, rivets and catches are now available like never before. Life is weird. Tools you couldn't have are now cheap, but the leather you need is expensive and kind of hard to find. Everywhere I go I still have leather in the back of my mind, and will snag a thick purse or briefcase or any kind of harness in a heartbeat! Forever on the lookout for leather. ;) yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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