OldTools Archive

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273727 David Sobel 2021‑05‑18 Bow saw question
GG’s,
This past weekend, I made my first turning saw.  Maple, with cherry accessories,
and shop made stainless steel and brass hardware.

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264246/3229238?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

In general, I am happy with it, but I do have one issue.  The handle turns too
easily.  Initially, I thought maybe the issue is that I used a 1/4” bolt for the
pin, which is about .007” smaller than the 1/4” hole I drilled to house it.
Tonight I got a piece of 5/16” stainless steel rod (don’t judge me, I live in
Florida, the land of endless rust), chucked it in my metal lathe, and turned the
pin to exactly 1/4” as close as I can measure.  The handle is still loose enough
that it is not feasible to use the saw if only holding the handle.  I find the
saw works fine if I hold the frame with my thumb, index and middle fingers, and
wrap my ring finger and pinkie around the handle.

So is the issue my exceptions, and I should grip the saw as noted above, or is
there some other trick for making the handle harder to turn?  I ended up
drilling a hole in the frame for a set screw that pushes against the pin, and
that works, but is clearly not a period appropriate fix.  I have also considered
putting a high friction washer between the handle and the frame.  Also not a
period appropriate fix.  So what are your experiences?

David Sobel
273728 Adam R. Maxwell 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
> On May 17, 2021, at 19:00 , David Sobel via groups.io 
wrote:
> 
> In general, I am happy with it, but I do have one issue.

You should be happy with it; nice job! What did you use for the blade?

> I have also considered putting a high friction washer between the handle and
the frame.  Also not a period appropriate fix.  So what are your experiences?

When I made a turning saw several years ago, I ended up putting rubber o-rings
on my pins to keep the handles from turning. Not period correct, as you say, but
there was a point where I had to use the thing to get work done.

Adam
Benton City, WA
273729 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
Most of the bowsaws i've seen have split wooden tenons integral to the 
handle, so they have wood-to-wood friction surfaces. I think i've seen 
one where the tenons were tapered.

The one saw with metal pins with which I'm somewhat familiar  is a 
Marples, It has a disc of resilient material sandwiched between brass 
washers on the pins between the handles and uprights.  it should be easy 
enough to try something like that.

Another thing you might try would be apply some rosin to the pins - the 
sort that bass & cello players use.

Don
273730 Bill Ghio 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
> On May 18, 2021, at 1:38 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> Most of the bowsaws i've seen have split wooden tenons integral to the handle,
so they have wood-to-wood friction surfaces. I think i've seen one where the
tenons were tapered.
> 
> The one saw with metal pins with which I'm somewhat familiar  is a Marples, It
has a disc of resilient material sandwiched between brass washers on the pins
between the handles and uprights.  it should be easy enough to try something
like that.
> 
> Another thing you might try would be apply some rosin to the pins - the sort
that bass & cello players use.

The handle pins should be tapered. I have two older bow saws with brass pins and
both have a taper to lock the joint as tension is applied. This was discussed on
the list many years ago so perhaps a search thru the archives will give you the
details. I think I was living in my old house when dismantling and measuring bow
saw components and I sold that place in 2000! Don’s comment on rosin is right
on. Arn’t the pins on traditional stringed instruments also tapered?

Bill
273731 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
Yes - and they hold up to about 30 pounds of pull by the string

Ed
273732 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
Bill says ’taper’ - right answer.  And seeing as you mentioned a lathe, then
producing a taper pin is easy, and a matching taper tool with a cutting edge cut
into it will also be simple so you can enlarge the existing hole a tad and fit
it to your new pin.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman


> On 18 May 2021, at 11:48, Bill Ghio via groups.io  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 18, 2021, at 1:38 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
>> 
>> Most of the bowsaws i've seen have split wooden tenons integral to the
handle, so they have wood-to-wood friction surfaces. I think i've seen one where
the tenons were tapered.
>> 
>> The one saw with metal pins with which I'm somewhat familiar  is a Marples,
It has a disc of resilient material sandwiched between brass washers on the pins
between the handles and uprights.  it should be easy enough to try something
like that.
>> 
>> Another thing you might try would be apply some rosin to the pins - the sort
that bass & cello players use.
> 
> The handle pins should be tapered. I have two older bow saws with brass pins
and both have a taper to lock the joint as tension is applied. This was
discussed on the list many years ago so perhaps a search thru the archives will
give you the details. I think I was living in my old house when dismantling and
measuring bow saw components and I sold that place in 2000! Don’s comment on
rosin is right on. Arn’t the pins on traditional stringed instruments also
tapered?
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273733 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
Not counting my grandfather's buck saw, I've used frame saws, turning
saws, for over 30 years.  The smallest I have is a bit larger than
David's beautiful creation.  The largest sports an approximately 30 inch
blade.  The largest I've seen (in photos) are pit saws.  Some have some
sort of "handle," most do not.  Now, I've seen fret saws with wooden
frames, but I'm not personally familiar with using one of those -- its
use may be different.  But without exception I always grasp the frame
itself in use.  Most of mine have those split wooden pins holding the
blade.  But not all.  The largest I currently have in my shop holds a 20
inch blade held in steel pins.  Those pins terminate in eyes so that you
can stick an awl in them to adjust the angle of the blade to the frame. 
The blade is to be canted to the right, not held vertically to the
frame. I seem to remember St. Roy showing this use; you're siting down
top edge of the blade, watching the blade work into the wood you're
cutting -- often an important advantage.  Old style coopers, in cutting
the barrel heads into circular disks, set the blades at right angles to
the frames.  True of the framed pit saws, too. 

In any case, the blade is not dependent on a handle for stability of the
blade, but on the frame.  Move the frame and the blade follows.  With
such a light blade it is difficult to control the frame by using the
"handle."  However small, a frame saw is not a metal framed coping saw
or fret saw.  The handle?  It's best, perhaps only use is adjusting the
angle of the blade from end to end so that it is perfectly straight. 
The weight of the frame, in combination with the small, light blade,
will not be stable, but will want to wobble and give you grief.  Grasp
the frame in use, and that problem disappears. 

Mike in Woodland
273735 Kirk Eppler 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 7:00 PM David Sobel via groups.io  wrote:

>
>
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264246/3229238?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
>
> In general, I am happy with it, but I do have one issue.  The handle turns
> too easily.
>

David shows off a pretty bow saw, and asks a question, which I accidentally
snipped away.

I've made two frame saws, and turned the tension up REALLY high for
resawing, and never had a problem with the blade twisting.  No handles,
just bolt heads and wingnuts.  Not pretty either.  (Could not find the
little one Sunday....)
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Saws/i-CvBRzc5

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Projects/i-pc62Q8v

But over the weekend, I pulled out the vintage bow saw, from the Aladdin's
<https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-3T656s5> cave
haul <https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-3T656s5>,
and had an Awful time with it.  Seeing as how it's definitely vintage, I
turned the tension down after usage and before putting it away for
storage.  So, I pulled it off the hook, turned the tension up some, and
tried a rip cut in oak.  It was embarrassing how crooked the cut was, even
after tightening it several times.  Looked like I was cutting a maze.
Guessing it's about 20" long, with maybe a 1/4" wide blade.  The blade was
tight enough that I could not turn the handle or knob by hand (hex shaped),
but after loosening I could turn it with a 6" wrench with no problem.  But
the middle of the blade still wandered all over heck.  At some point, I
will take it apart to see how the pins and holes are shaped, but I doubt
they are tapered.  Really need to work on that tension before I can use it
again.
-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, who used a horned scrub to plane away the
maze, which was kinda fun, then a Ohio 283? wooden smoother to finish it
off.  To make a piece for the doggie door........
273736 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264246/3229238?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
> 
> In general, I am happy with it, but I do have one issue.  The handle turns
> too easily.
> 

I have a vintage saw in beech with 1/4” brass pins and a 1/4” blade.  The pins
are not tapered and are not tight int heir holes - not sloppy oose, but loose.
It does a pretty good job of following a curvy line if I crank it down a bit -
no spinning around of the blade.

Ed Minch
273737 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2021‑05‑18 Re: Bow saw question
I have a large and small Woodjoy bow saw. They have leather washers between the
handle and frame and there isn’t the slightest wiggle. It was a bit of a
learning curve to use them. I concur with Mike and always grip the frame while
cutting and tend to use the handles only for balance. Trying to cut by gripping
the handles yielded embarrassingly horrible results. A smaller turning saw is on
my to-build list.
273738 David Sobel 2021‑05‑19 Re: Bow saw question
> Ed wrote:

> I have a vintage saw in beech with 1/4” brass pins and a 1/4” blade.  The pins
are not tapered and are not tight int heir holes - not sloppy oose, but loose.
It does a pretty good job of following a curvy line if I crank it down a bit -
no spinning around of the blade.
> 
> Ed Minch
> 

That pretty much describes my saw, once I learned where to hold it.

So first, thanks for all of the responses.  It appears my biggest issue was user
error.  It looks like a giant coping saw, so I tried to hold it like a coping
saw.  Once I took the advise to hold the frame, the rest fell into place pretty
well.

Someone asked where I got the blade.  I bought a set of 3 from Tools For Working
Wood.  Basically, it is a 12” long coping saw blade.
https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-BOW12.XX

There were some good comments on adding some friction to the handle turning.
The taper idea is interesting.  I may try that on the next saw.  This saw is a
gift for my daughter, so I don’t want to try something that may screw it up.  I
may try some leather or rubber washers on this one, but it doesn’t really appear
to be necessary.

Thanks much again,

David Sobel

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