OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
273605 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Scrub planes |
Got this nice German horned scrub plane from Joshua Clarke a few years ago. Taper ed iron marked Wilhelm Schmitt 1-1/8im wide, with camber just short of 1/4in. Only used it a couple of times, but cut deep and easy across dry white oak when I had to fit a bracket to the shaped underside of a family heirloom kitchen chair. Don |
|||
273611 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑05‑06 | Re: Scrub planes |
People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is. A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of the blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much These are just coarse set planes. A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I use them constantly. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jpg Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper radius. They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the easiest planes to control. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
|||
273612 | gtgrouch@r... | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
You need to show the mouth and the business end of that scrub plane. Woohoo!! Fritos here we come! Gary Katsanis Albion New York USA Where if it weren't for the last minute nothing would get done. Back to taxes! -----------------------------------------From: "scottg" To: "porch" Cc: Sent: Thursday May 6 2021 7:40:24PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is. A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of the blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much These are just coarse set planes. A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I use them constantly. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg /> http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jpg /> Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper radius. They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the easiest planes to control. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg /> yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ /> http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html /> Links: ------ [1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub |
|||
273613 | Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
Here's a visual blade comparison https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263870/3221442 On the left is the 1-1/2" radius vintage German blade by LW (Laupheimer Werkzeugfabrik) from my wood-bodied scrub plane In the middle is the 3" radius Lie Nielsen 40-1/2, based on the "large" Stanley scrub plane On the right is a vintage Stanley No. 5. It's included for size comparison even though it's ground straight; I haven't tried adapting a jack plane as a scrub substitute. The two scrub blades are quite substantial5/32" thick for the LW, 11/64" for the Lie Nielsen. The Stanley is the standard 1/16" so it depends heavily on the cap iron for rigidity if you want to remove a lot of material. One quibble about terminologyI would say a "jack can't take a very SMALL radius". But I knew what you meant. --Chris Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates: https://h-frame.weebly.com/ -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of scottg Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 7:40 PM To: porch Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is. A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of the blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much These are just coarse set planes. A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I use them constantly. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jp g Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper radius. They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the easiest planes to control. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg yours scott |
|||
273614 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
And just for a data point, here is the Stanley idea of the proper grind on a later NIB #40. The blade is just shy of 1/8” thick. I find these tools easy to use and quite effective. I could never imaging doing so much removal with a bench plane with a convex grind. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51164169669/in/dateposted-public/ Ed Minch |
|||
273615 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
I have a very early #40. The grind on it is similar to Ed's. I haven't run into a lot of rough sawn lumber than required substantial scrubbing but it works a charm when needed. I also find it useful for taking down the edge of a board when the amount to remove is < 1" as opposed to ripping. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
|||
273616 | Kenneth Stagg <kenneth.stagg@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
OK, I like that idea. Never thought about that. The other nice thing about scrub planes and that narrow, right radius - they're a blast to use. Big, thick, crinkly chips and the sound is totally different than a wider blade with a shallower radius. Almost a zipper sound rather than a whoosh. -Ken, mostly lurking but still interested |
|||
273617 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
Not sure if it's just me but I find it hard to visualize the difference between various radii on plane iron edges. I know that if I'm grinding a new radius on an iron which has a straight edge, I might draw an arc with a compass, then hold my iron against the arc to see how much projection or camber I want when grinding. But from then on, it's all about camber for me - i.e., how much does the center of the edge project beyond the corners of the iron? 1/16th, 1/8th etc. Bigger on a block plane or scrub, smaller on a bench plane. Easier to visualize and check IME. Exact measurement not so critical. FWIW Don . aOn 2021-05-06 8:49 p.m., Chris Wolf wrote: |
|||
273618 | Marvin Paisner <paisners@s...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
Don & Galoots, On my Stanley 40 with a 1 1/4" wide blade the protrusion of the arc is 1/8" beyond the corners of the iron. Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Don Schwartz Sent: May-07-21 12:31 PM To: oldtools@g... Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes Not sure if it's just me but I find it hard to visualize the difference between various radii on plane iron edges. I know that if I'm grinding a new radius on an iron which has a straight edge, I might draw an arc with a compass, then hold my iron against the arc to see how much projection or camber I want when grinding. But from then on, it's all about camber for me - i.e., how much does the center of the edge project beyond the corners of the iron? 1/16th, 1/8th etc. Bigger on a block plane or scrub, smaller on a bench plane. Easier to visualize and check IME. Exact measurement not so critical. FWIW Don -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
|||
273619 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
given the 1/8" arc height, and the 1 1/4" chord length, we're looking at a circle with a radius of 1.63" for a stanley #40 camber. set your caliper to that, and on the back of the blade draw a line square across the iron 1/16" or so down from the current set of corners. draw an arc down the iron from either point where that line intersects the side, they should cross in the middle of the iron. then use that point where they cross as the center to draw the arc of your new blade edge. bill felton, ca |
|||
273620 | Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
Twenty or so years ago, after I purchased a LN4, I converted a junker Made in England Stanley #4 into a scrub. This was long before Paul Sellers and YouTube. I filed the mouth open to 3/8”, ground the blade to 3/16” from center to edge (I think the radius is 6-8 degrees), knocked off the corners of the chipbreaker to gain full extension and slightly filed the top of the chipbreaker to prevent jams or clogging. Full disclosure (blasphemous as it may be): now that I’m 72, dimensioning rough lumber by hand is no longer a labor of love, so it doesn’t see much use anymore. In fact I noticed the blade could stand some touch-up when I was taking the photos. At any rate, it works fine. Maybe not quite as good as a built-for-the-purpose scrub, but all it cost was about an hour of my time. |
|||
273622 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
Mre ways would be to eyeball it which would be fine for a scrub, or print and cut out one of the pictures you like and tape it to the wall above your sharpening station Ed Minch |
|||
273621 | Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
That calculation assumes that the current edge is an arc of a circle, which it may not be. Do we know that Stanley ground them as an arc of a circle? How has the grind been changed over its lifetime since then? --Chris Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates: https://h-frame.weebly.com/ -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Bill Kasper Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 4:22 PM To: Marvin Paisner Cc: Don Schwartz; porch Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes given the 1/8" arc height, and the 1 1/4" chord length, we're looking at a circle with a radius of 1.63" for a stanley #40 camber. |
|||
273625 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
That just seems like more effort than necessary for a roughing tool like a scrub plane. And once you know how much camber you prefer on a jack, smoother or block plane, you can just eyeball it. No need to mark up the blade nor remember what radius to set a compass. My C$.02 Don |
|||
273626 | Bill Ghio | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Paint |
> On May 7, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Ed Minch |
|||
273627 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑05‑07 | Re: Scrub planes |
With mine, the entire radius'd portion is not extended out below the body of the plane, only a fraction of that. I could go back and remeasure the chord of protrusion, but the amount extended would change based on the wood I am planing. As someone else said, its cutting Fritos, so maybe only 1/2" is cutting. maybe more, maybe less, but its deeper at a 2" radius on a scrub than a 8" radius on a smoother, but much narrower, for the same amount of work involved. Kirk in HMB, dunking stuff in evaporust between telephone calls. On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 12:31 PM Don Schwartz |
|||
273629 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Scrub planes |
Gentle Galoots, Some years ago a horned smoother followed me home from a flea market. The body is unmarked. The cast steel tapered iron is marked Sandusky, and it is 3/16" thick at the base of the bevel. Nice and heavy. You may need to log in to groups.io/g/oldtools to view these links. https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222963 When I got the plane home I discovered that there was a problem with it. The iron was not bedded square to the body of the plane. https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222976 To use it as a smoother I would have had to grind and maintain the iron at the matching angle. Then I would have had a "skewed smoother." Whoever heard of such a thing? Since the mouth is nice and wide, I decided to regrind the iron with a heavy camber and use it as a scrub plane. I figured that a slightly skew bed angle wouldn't matter for that purpose and besides I didn't have another scrub plane at the time. https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222978 Yes, 2" is too wide for a scrub plane iron, but it's only the part that protrudes from the mouth that matters and that you can control by grinding the iron appropriately. Seems to work well enough. Several of you commented on how to grind a camber. Since this iron has a cap iron, it has a slot. I have tool rest with a flat platform that can be set to the appropriate bed angle. I centered the bevel on the tool rest, put the tip of my thumb through the top of the slot and pivoted the iron right and left on that as I ground. I didn't measure it, but it's not far from the 1.63" radius Bill Kasper mentioned. Measured another way, the tip projects 3/16" from the corners. I make no claim that this plane is superior to a Stanley 40 or 40-1/2 scrub plane, but it does seem to work pretty well. Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA |
|||
273630 | Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Scrub planes |
The first time I used a scrub plane was three years ago, in the "Introduction to Hand Tool Woodworking" class from Roy Underhill at the Woodwright's School. I was amazed at how much fun it was to use a scrub plane! It's almost as though it's a completely different tool than any other plane. I had a smile on my face for quite a while, and I knew I had to get one (or two). (This was also when I used a Roubo frame saw and a froe for the first time.) --Chris Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates: https://h-frame.weebly.com/ ________________________________ From: Kenneth Stagg [mailto:kenneth.stagg@g...] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 11:40 AM To: Dennis Heyza Cc: Ed Minch; Chris Wolf; porch Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes OK, I like that idea. Never thought about that. The other nice thing about scrub planes and that narrow, right radius - they're a blast to use. Big, thick, crinkly chips and the sound is totally different than a wider blade with a shallower radius. Almost a zipper sound rather than a whoosh. |
|||
273631 | Brian Ward <bri@a...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Scrub planes |
As it is on the one I built several years back. This is not a delicate, subtle tool and one should not overthink it. You want good chip clearance and it to feel halfway comfortable as you're doing the grunt work. I found that I preferred a wood-bodied one, though you might need to re-sole it occasionally if you're working on really gnarly stuff. Brian |
|||
273634 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Paint |
Further, RAF ‘Roundel Blue’ was used by Record Tools for their output. The newer tools used a brighter blue which is pretty garish to my eye, and needs to be repainted the ‘proper’ blue, whereas older tools are a much richer colour (color,Paddy) I have a No2 on the bench in course of being fettled, and I’m in two minds about it. The colour is a very very dark blue, but in poor condition. Beside it is a No6 I have just repainted from the rust up, and it looks ‘right’ The old question about conserve or refinish. I need to set about the woodwork on a couple of these jobs, so whilst I do that I’m ’considering’ But to anser Ed’s question, I was expecting you to have used that 18 Century green, so you could add a couple of tiny spots to your planes and other tools. It’s expected. In fact, I thought it was the rules - green paint spots are mandatory, with (dirty) white being the only allowable substitute. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot > On 7 May 2021, at 22:53, John Ruth |
|||
273635 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Paint |
If you have to explain a joke, it’s not funny - the color was last thing I wanted you to look at. It is “Old Fashioned Milk Paint’s” Soldier Blue with a bit of black in it. All of my other’s are either black or dark green and I wanted something different. Nancy Evans’ books note that yellow was very popular, but I need to reserve that for the Gragg elastic chair I am making at Don Wilson’s barn 3 months from now. But thanks for the guesses Ed Minch |
|||
273636 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Paint |
I think we were all appreciative of the photo, and had ‘instant’ understanding, but we are all too well aware that it could have been any of us. Or it HAS been MOST of us. and my old Mum (Mom, Paddy) said not to laugh at other people’s discomfiture. Been there, felt your pain, admired the colour (color) Richard Finding it hard to get hold of milk paint here and wondering what a Gragg elastic chair can possibly be, and how it involves anything elastic. > On 8 May 2021, at 10:53, Ed Minch |
|||
273647 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Scrub planes |
Chuck Looks like you did a fine job of re-purposing. The only reason I have a user Stanley 40 is that I found one cheap - else I would have done something like that. When I started my (limited) windsor chair career 18 years ago I looked at buying a gutter adze - nothing less than $150 at the time, so I took a cute little $10 cherry smoother and made a compass scrub. It is radiussed both fore- and-aft and side-to-side. So far I have used it on 9 seats without sharpening it since the first. In fact I don't recall re-setting the blade after the first - just put a piece of blue tape over the edge between uses. It takes literally 15 minutes to get close enough for a travisher as I skip-the-scorp most of the time and the travisher does such a great job. I stopped looking for a gutter adze. Here are 5 shots - scroll left and right https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51166015444/in/dateposted-public/ Ed Minch |
|||
273664 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑05‑08 | Re: Scrub planes |
Ed, After I re-purposed the horned smoother to serve as a scrub plane, I purchased a genuine Stanley 40-1/2 from my PNTC buddy GAM. At the time I was thinking I couldn't have too many planes. Now I'm not so sure about that. :-) But they both do work well. I noticed that the edges of the sole on the 40-1/2 are radiused, presumably to make it glide better on rough surfaces. Is the Stanley 40 the same? Love your woodie smoother modified for chair seat duty. I have a couple of coffin-style compass planes. If I ever get into chair making, I should do something similar. Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA Ed Minch wrote: Chuck Looks like you did a fine job of re-purposing. The only reason I have a user Stanley 40 is that I found one cheap - else I would have done something like that. When I started my (limited) windsor chair career 18 years ago I looked at buying a gutter adze - nothing less than $150 at the time, so I took a cute little $10 cherry smoother and made a compass scrub. It is radiussed both fore- and-aft and side-to-side. So far I have used it on 9 seats without sharpening it since the first. In fact I don't recall re-setting the blade after the first - just put a piece of blue tape over the edge between uses. It takes literally 15 minutes to get close enough for a travisher as I skip-the-scorp most of the time and the travisher does such a great job. I stopped looking for a gutter adze. Here are 5 shots - scroll left and right https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51166015444/in/dateposted-public/ Ed Minch |
|||
273667 | Marvin Paisner <paisners@s...> | 2021‑05‑09 | Re: Scrub planes |
Chuck and Galoots The edges on my Stanley 40 are radiused, a detail I never really took notice of. My 40 doesn't get used very much but when it goes into action I find it to be effective and fun to use with big honkin' chips flying everywhere. Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Chuck Taylor via groups.io Sent: May-08-21 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes I noticed that the edges of the sole on the 40-1/2 are radiused, presumably to make it glide better on rough surfaces. Is the Stanley 40 the same? Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
|||
273668 | Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> | 2021‑05‑09 | Re: Scrub planes |
My Lie Nielsen 40-1/2 has 90 degree edges on the sole. -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Marvin Paisner Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2021 10:07 PM To: 'porch' Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes Chuck and Galoots The edges on my Stanley 40 are radiused, a detail I never really took notice of. |
|||
273669 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑05‑09 | Re: Paint |
The Esteemed Galoot of Yorkshire wrote: > "Further, RAF ‘Roundel Blue’ was used by Record Tools for their output. The newer tools used a brighter blue which is pretty garish to my eye, and needs to be repainted the ‘proper’ blue, whereas older tools are a much richer colour (color,Paddy)" I nominate this as an example of the best and highest function of the Porch! He just promulgated an obscure piece of the lore of Record tools! File this away, folks! Record tools were painted "RAF Roundel Blue" which is also known as RAL 5005 Signal Blue. Re: The dark green paint spattwers on old tools. This was, and is, a popular color for house trim. In my early boyhood, my parents changed the trim on their white side-hall Dutch Colonial house from blue to Hunter Green. It looked great against the white!ÿ John Ruth |
|||
273670 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑09 | Re: Scrub planes |
I have a later Stanley 40 - with rosewood handles - and the edges are not radiused but have the same small bevel as their bench plans have Ed Minch |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |