OldTools Archive

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273605 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑05‑05 Scrub planes
Got this nice German horned scrub plane from Joshua Clarke a few years ago.
Taper ed iron marked Wilhelm Schmitt 1-1/8im wide, with camber just short of
1/4in. Only used it a couple of times, but cut deep and easy across dry white
oak when I had to fit a bracket to the shaped underside of a family heirloom
kitchen chair.

Don
273611 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑05‑06 Re: Scrub planes
People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is.

  A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of 
the blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much
These are just coarse set planes.
  A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I 
use them constantly.

http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jpg

Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper 
radius. They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the easiest 
planes to control.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273612 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
You need to show the mouth and the business end of that scrub plane. 

Woohoo!! Fritos here we come!

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York USA
Where if it weren't for the last minute nothing would get done. Back
to taxes!

	-----------------------------------------From: "scottg" 
To: "porch"
Cc: 
Sent: Thursday May 6 2021 7:40:24PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

 People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is.

 A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of
 the blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much
 These are just coarse set planes.
 A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I
 use them constantly.

http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg
 />
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jpg
 />
 Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper
 radius. They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the
easiest
 planes to control.
 http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg
 /> yours scott

 --
 *******************************
 Scott Grandstaff
 Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039
 scottg@s...
 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
 /> http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
 />

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
273613 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
Here's a visual blade comparison
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263870/3221442
On the left is the 1-1/2" radius vintage German blade by LW (Laupheimer
Werkzeugfabrik) from my wood-bodied scrub plane
In the middle is the 3" radius Lie Nielsen 40-1/2, based on the "large"
Stanley scrub plane
On the right is a vintage Stanley No. 5. It's included for size comparison
even though it's ground straight; I haven't tried adapting a jack plane as a
scrub substitute.

The two scrub blades are quite substantial—5/32" thick for the LW, 11/64"
for the Lie Nielsen. The Stanley is the standard 1/16" so it depends heavily
on the cap iron for rigidity if you want to remove a lot of material.

One quibble about terminology—I would say a "jack can't take a very SMALL
radius". But I knew what you meant.

--Chris 

Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates:
https://h-frame.weebly.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of scottg
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2021 7:40 PM
To: porch
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

People are getting confused about what a scrub plane is.

  A regular smoother or jack can't take a very big radius. The width of the
blade/chipbreaker only lets you use so much These are just coarse set
planes.
  A coarse set jack is more used in my shop than a true scrub by far. I use
them constantly.

http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/jack2.jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/wormscrub3.jp
g

Scrubs are very narrow with no chipbreaker so you can grind a deeper radius.
They hog chips faster than anything but they are not the easiest planes to
control.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/homeplanes/scrub1.jpg
yours scott
273614 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
And just for a data point, here is the Stanley idea of the proper grind on a
later NIB #40.  The blade is just shy of 1/8” thick.  I find these tools easy to
use and quite effective.  I could never imaging doing so much removal with a
bench plane with a convex grind.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51164169669/in/dateposted-public/

Ed Minch
273615 Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
I have a very early #40. The grind on it is similar to Ed's. 

I haven't run into a lot of rough sawn lumber than required substantial
scrubbing but it works a charm when needed. I also find it useful for taking
down the edge of a board when the amount to remove is < 1" as opposed to
ripping.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g...  On Behalf Of Ed Minch
Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 9:54 AM
To: Chris Wolf 
Cc: porch 
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

And just for a data point, here is the Stanley idea of the proper grind on a
later NIB #40.  The blade is just shy of 1/8” thick.  I find these tools easy to
use and quite effective.  I could never imaging doing so much removal with a
bench plane with a convex grind.
273616 Kenneth Stagg <kenneth.stagg@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
OK, I like that idea.  Never thought about that.

The other nice thing about scrub planes and that narrow, right radius -
they're a blast to use.  Big, thick, crinkly chips and the sound is totally
different than a wider blade with a shallower radius.  Almost a zipper
sound rather than a whoosh.

-Ken, mostly lurking but still interested
273617 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
Not sure if it's just me but I find it hard to visualize the difference 
between various radii on plane iron edges. I know that if I'm grinding a 
new radius on an iron which has a straight edge, I might draw an arc 
with a compass, then hold my iron against the arc to see how much 
projection or camber I want when grinding. But from then on, it's all 
about camber for me - i.e., how much does the center of the edge project 
beyond the corners of the iron? 1/16th, 1/8th etc. Bigger on a block 
plane or scrub, smaller on a bench plane. Easier to visualize and check 
IME. Exact measurement not so critical.

FWIW
Don

   . aOn 2021-05-06 8:49 p.m., Chris Wolf wrote:
273618 Marvin Paisner <paisners@s...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
Don & Galoots,

On my Stanley 40 with a 1 1/4" wide blade the protrusion of the arc is 1/8"
beyond the corners of the iron.

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC


-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Don Schwartz
Sent: May-07-21 12:31 PM
To: oldtools@g...
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

Not sure if it's just me but I find it hard to visualize the difference between
various radii on plane iron edges. I know that if I'm grinding a new radius on
an iron which has a straight edge, I might draw an arc with a compass, then hold
my iron against the arc to see how much projection or camber I want when
grinding. But from then on, it's all about camber for me - i.e., how much does
the center of the edge project beyond the corners of the iron? 1/16th, 1/8th
etc. Bigger on a block plane or scrub, smaller on a bench plane. Easier to
visualize and check IME. Exact measurement not so critical.

FWIW
Don



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273619 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
given the 1/8" arc height, and the 1 1/4" chord length, we're looking at a
circle with a radius of 1.63" for a stanley #40 camber.

set your caliper to that, and on the back of the blade draw a line square
across the iron 1/16" or so down from the current set of corners.  draw an
arc down the iron from either point where that line intersects the side,
they should cross in the middle of the iron.  then use that point where
they cross as the center to draw the arc of your new blade edge.

bill
felton, ca
273620 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
Twenty or so years ago, after I purchased a LN4, I converted a junker Made in
England Stanley #4 into a scrub. This was long before Paul Sellers and YouTube.
I filed the mouth open to 3/8”, ground the blade to 3/16” from center to edge (I
think the radius is 6-8 degrees), knocked off the corners of the chipbreaker to
gain full extension and slightly filed the top of the chipbreaker to prevent
jams or clogging. Full disclosure (blasphemous as it may be): now that I’m 72,
dimensioning rough lumber by hand is no longer a labor of love, so it doesn’t
see much use anymore. In fact I noticed the blade could stand some touch-up when
I was taking the photos. At any rate, it works fine. Maybe not quite as good as
a built-for-the-purpose scrub, but all it cost was about an hour of my time.
273622 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
Mre ways would be to eyeball it which would be fine for a scrub, or print and
cut out one of the pictures you like and tape it to the wall above your
sharpening station

Ed Minch
273621 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
That calculation assumes that the current edge is an arc of a circle, which
it may not be. Do we know that Stanley ground them as an arc of a circle?
How has the grind been changed over its lifetime since then?

--Chris 

Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates:
https://h-frame.weebly.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Bill
Kasper
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 4:22 PM
To: Marvin Paisner
Cc: Don Schwartz; porch
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

given the 1/8" arc height, and the 1 1/4" chord length, we're looking at a
circle with a radius of 1.63" for a stanley #40 camber.
273625 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
That just seems like more effort than necessary for a roughing tool like 
a scrub plane. And once you know how much camber you prefer on a jack, 
smoother or block plane, you can just eyeball it. No need to mark up the 
blade nor remember what radius to set a compass.

My C$.02

Don
273626 Bill Ghio 2021‑05‑07 Re: Paint
> On May 7, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Ed Minch  wrote:
> 
> 
> Gues what color I painted my windsor chair
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51163396422/in/dateposted-public/

Well that’s lovely Ed. Much better color than the blonde shellac I used on my
floor recently.

Bill
273627 Kirk Eppler 2021‑05‑07 Re: Scrub planes
With mine, the entire radius'd portion is not extended out below the body
of the plane, only a fraction of that.  I could go back and remeasure the
chord of protrusion, but the amount extended would change based on the wood
I am planing.  As someone else said, its cutting Fritos, so maybe only 1/2"
is cutting.  maybe more, maybe less, but its deeper at a 2" radius on a
scrub than a 8" radius on a smoother, but much narrower, for the same
amount of work involved.

 Kirk in HMB, dunking stuff in evaporust between telephone calls.

On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 12:31 PM Don Schwartz  wrote:

>  i.e., how much does the center of the edge project beyond the corners of
> the iron? 1/16th, 1/8th etc. Bigger on a block
> plane or scrub, smaller on a bench plane. Easier to visualize and
> check IME. Exact measurement not so critical.
>
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler
273629 Chuck Taylor 2021‑05‑08 Re: Scrub planes
Gentle Galoots,

Some years ago a horned smoother followed me home from a flea market. The body
is unmarked. The cast steel tapered iron is marked Sandusky, and it is 3/16"
thick at the base of the bevel. Nice and heavy. You may need to log in to
groups.io/g/oldtools to view these links.

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222963

When I got the plane home I discovered that there was a problem with it. The
iron was not bedded square to the body of the plane.

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222976

To use it as a smoother I would have had to grind and maintain the iron at the
matching angle. Then I would have had a "skewed smoother." Whoever heard of such
a thing?

Since the mouth is nice and wide, I decided to regrind the iron with a heavy
camber and use it as a scrub plane. I figured that a slightly skew bed angle
wouldn't matter for that purpose and besides I didn't have another scrub plane
at the time.

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263897/3222978

Yes, 2" is too wide for a scrub plane iron, but it's only the part that
protrudes from the mouth that matters and that you can control by grinding the
iron appropriately. Seems to work well enough.

Several of you commented on how to grind a camber. Since this iron has a cap
iron, it has a slot. I have tool rest with a flat platform that can be set to
the appropriate bed angle. I centered the bevel on the tool rest, put the tip of
my thumb through the top of the slot and pivoted the iron right and left on that
as I ground. I didn't measure it, but it's not far from the 1.63" radius Bill
Kasper mentioned. Measured another way, the tip projects 3/16" from the corners.

I make no claim that this plane is superior to a Stanley 40 or 40-1/2 scrub
plane, but it does seem to work pretty well.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
273630 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Scrub planes
The first time I used a scrub plane was three years ago, in the
"Introduction to Hand Tool Woodworking" class from Roy Underhill at the
Woodwright's School. I was amazed at how much fun it was to use a scrub
plane! It's almost as though it's a completely different tool than any other
plane. I had a smile on my face for quite a while, and I knew I had to get
one (or two). (This was also when I used a Roubo frame saw and a froe for
the first time.)
--Chris

Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates:

https://h-frame.weebly.com/ 

________________________________

From: Kenneth Stagg [mailto:kenneth.stagg@g...] 
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 11:40 AM
To: Dennis Heyza
Cc: Ed Minch; Chris Wolf; porch
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes


OK, I like that idea.  Never thought about that.

The other nice thing about scrub planes and that narrow, right radius -
they're a blast to use.  Big, thick, crinkly chips and the sound is totally
different than a wider blade with a shallower radius.  Almost a zipper sound
rather than a whoosh.
273631 Brian Ward <bri@a...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Scrub planes
As it is on the one I built several years back. This is not a delicate, subtle
tool and one should not overthink it. You want good chip clearance and it to
feel halfway comfortable as you're doing the grunt work. I found that I
preferred a wood-bodied one, though you might need to re-sole it occasionally if
you're working on really gnarly stuff.

Brian
273634 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Paint
Further, RAF ‘Roundel Blue’  was used by Record Tools for their output.   The
newer tools used a brighter blue which is pretty garish to my eye, and needs to
be repainted the ‘proper’ blue, whereas older tools are a much richer colour
(color,Paddy)

I have a No2 on the bench in course of being fettled, and I’m in two minds about
it.  The colour is a very very dark blue, but in poor condition.  Beside it is a
No6 I have just repainted from the rust up, and it looks ‘right’   The old
question about conserve or refinish.   I need to set about the woodwork on a
couple of these jobs, so whilst I do that I’m ’considering’


But to anser Ed’s question, I was expecting you to have used that 18 Century
green, so you could add a couple of tiny spots to your planes and other tools.
It’s expected.  In fact, I thought it was the rules - green paint spots are
mandatory, with (dirty) white being the only allowable substitute.



Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot




> On 7 May 2021, at 22:53, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Ed,
> 
> RAL 5005, Signal Blue?
> ( As used on RAF roundel insignia.)
> 
> I opine that the RAL Standard color system is under-appreciated in the USA.
I'm particularly disappointed that the "custom mixed paint color" people do not
have formulary books for the RAL "colorspace"
> For that matter, most of them don't have formulae for ANSI colors.
> 
> John Ruth
>> On May 7, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Ed Minch  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Gues what color I painted my windsor chair
>> 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51163396422/in/dateposted-public/
>> 
>> Ed Minch
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273635 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Paint
If you have to explain a joke, it’s not funny - the color was last thing I
wanted you to look at.  It is “Old Fashioned Milk Paint’s” Soldier Blue with a
bit of black in it.  All of my other’s are either black or dark green and I
wanted something different.  Nancy Evans’ books note that yellow was very
popular, but I need to reserve that for the Gragg elastic chair I am making at
Don Wilson’s barn 3 months from now.

But thanks for the guesses

Ed Minch
273636 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Paint
I think we were all appreciative of the photo, and had ‘instant’ understanding,
but we are all too well aware that it could have been any of us.  Or it HAS been
MOST of us.



and my old Mum (Mom, Paddy) said not to laugh at other people’s discomfiture.   






Been there, felt your pain, admired the colour (color) 



Richard
Finding it hard to get hold of milk paint here  and wondering what a Gragg
elastic chair can possibly be, and how it involves anything elastic.


> On 8 May 2021, at 10:53, Ed Minch  wrote:
> 
> If you have to explain a joke, it’s not funny - the color was last thing I
wanted you to look at.  It is “Old Fashioned Milk Paint’s” Soldier Blue with a
bit of black in it.  All of my other’s are either black or dark green and I
wanted something different.  Nancy Evans’ books note that yellow was very
popular, but I need to reserve that for the Gragg elastic chair I am making at
Don Wilson’s barn 3 months from now.
> 
> But thanks for the guesses
> 
> Ed Minch
> 
>> On May 8, 2021, at 1:56 AM, yorkshireman@y... wrote:
>> 
>> But to anser Ed’s question, I was expecting you to have used that 18 Century
green, so you could add a couple of tiny spots to your planes and other tools.
It’s expected.  In fact, I thought it was the rules - green paint spots are
mandatory, with (dirty) white being the only allowable substitute.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273647 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑08 Re: Scrub planes
Chuck

Looks like you did a fine job of re-purposing. The only reason I have a user
Stanley 40 is that I found one cheap - else I would have done something like
that.  When I started my (limited) windsor chair career 18 years ago I looked at
buying a gutter adze - nothing less than $150 at the time, so I took a cute
little $10 cherry smoother and made a compass scrub.  It is radiussed both fore-
and-aft and side-to-side.  So far I have used it on 9 seats without sharpening
it since the first.  In fact I don't recall re-setting the blade after the first
- just put a piece of blue tape over the edge between uses.  It takes literally
15 minutes to get close enough for a travisher as I skip-the-scorp most of the
time and the travisher does such a great job.  I stopped looking for a gutter
adze.  Here are 5 shots - scroll left and right

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51166015444/in/dateposted-public/


Ed Minch
273664 Chuck Taylor 2021‑05‑08 Re: Scrub planes
Ed,

After I re-purposed the horned smoother to serve as a scrub plane, I purchased a
genuine Stanley 40-1/2 from my PNTC buddy GAM. At the time I was thinking I
couldn't have too many planes. Now I'm not so sure about that. :-) But they both
do work well.

I noticed that the edges of the sole on the 40-1/2 are radiused, presumably to
make it glide better on rough surfaces. Is the Stanley 40 the same?

Love your woodie smoother modified for chair seat duty. I have a couple of
coffin-style compass planes. If I ever get into chair making, I should do
something similar.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA


Ed Minch wrote:

Chuck

Looks like you did a fine job of re-purposing. The only reason I have a user
Stanley 40 is that I found one cheap - else I would have done something like
that.  When I started my (limited) windsor chair career 18 years ago I looked at
buying a gutter adze - nothing less than $150 at the time, so I took a cute
little $10 cherry smoother and made a compass scrub.  It is radiussed both fore-
and-aft and side-to-side.  So far I have used it on 9 seats without sharpening
it since the first.  In fact I don't recall re-setting the blade after the first
- just put a piece of blue tape over the edge between uses.  It takes literally
15 minutes to get close enough for a travisher as I skip-the-scorp most of the
time and the travisher does such a great job.  I stopped looking for a gutter
adze.  Here are 5 shots - scroll left and right

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/51166015444/in/dateposted-public/


Ed Minch
273667 Marvin Paisner <paisners@s...> 2021‑05‑09 Re: Scrub planes
Chuck and Galoots

The edges on my Stanley 40 are radiused, a detail I never really took notice of.

My 40 doesn't get used very much but when it goes into action I find it to be
effective and fun to use with big  honkin'  chips flying everywhere.

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC



-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Chuck Taylor via
groups.io
Sent: May-08-21 4:20 PM

Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes


I noticed that the edges of the sole on the 40-1/2 are radiused, presumably to
make it glide better on rough surfaces. Is the Stanley 40 the same?

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA




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273668 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2021‑05‑09 Re: Scrub planes
My Lie Nielsen 40-1/2 has 90 degree edges on the sole. 

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools@g... [mailto:oldtools@g...] On Behalf Of Marvin
Paisner
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2021 10:07 PM
To: 'porch'
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Scrub planes

Chuck and Galoots

The edges on my Stanley 40 are radiused, a detail I never really took notice
of.
273669 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑05‑09 Re: Paint
The Esteemed Galoot of Yorkshire wrote:


> "Further, RAF ‘Roundel Blue’  was used by Record Tools for their output.   The
newer tools used a brighter blue which is pretty garish to my eye, and needs to
be repainted the ‘proper’ blue, whereas older tools are a much richer colour
(color,Paddy)"

I nominate this as an example of the best and highest function of the Porch!  He
just promulgated an obscure piece of the lore of Record tools! File this away,
folks!

Record tools were painted "RAF Roundel Blue" which is also known as RAL 5005
Signal Blue.

Re: The dark green paint spattwers on old tools.
This was, and is, a popular color for house trim.  In my early boyhood, my
parents changed the trim on their white side-hall Dutch Colonial house from blue
to Hunter Green. It looked great against the white!ÿ

John Ruth
273670 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑05‑09 Re: Scrub planes
I have a later Stanley 40 - with rosewood handles - and the edges are not
radiused but have the same small bevel as their bench plans have

Ed Minch

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