OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

273407 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑04‑09 Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
GG's,

I once saw a froe made from a vehicular leaf spring.  Based on the width, I'd
guess it was a spring from a small truck.  The eye was held closed with two hot
rivets, though electric welding would have been nice. ( Rivets were on a line
perpendicular, rather than parallel to, the handle. )

What's that you say? The steel in vehicle springs won't take and hold a good
edge?  That's irrelevant in a froe, because froes don't want a razor-sharp edge
to begin with!

I've got a Snow & Neally froe, purchased brand new at the long-departed Wallace
Armer Hardware Store in Schenectady, NY.  It has an electric weld holding the
eye closed.  A quality froe is not necessarily Forge-Welded!

A good diameter for a froe's eye would be the diameter of the handle of a long-
handle shovel.  Shovels with broken handles are commonly found at the curb on
"junk day."

Just my two cents.
John Ruth
Keep on snipping; it prevents redundant "hits" when searching the archive.  And,
storage isn't free and unlimited in the long haul!
273420 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑04‑09 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
I once saw a froe made from a vehicular leaf spring.

OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe.
   The bane of knife and other toolmakers, it would do great for a real 
froe.
It would take a heavy truck spring. Ordinary pickup springs are way too 
thin. But the big ones are 1/2" + thick.

The stuff is tenacious and wants to return to its shape on quenching, 
even after heavy forging.
  And it would probably take a power hammer to form a proper eye and 
evenly taper from spine to edge in a true wedge.

  But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a 
great froe!
I haven't seen it done myself. But it could be.
I just don't see anyone volunteering for the job hahahah
yours scott
who has worked OTS a time or two


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273421 gary allan may 2021‑04‑09 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Scott---  
  In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel and tool
steel? Serious question!
  
  I smithed a few chisels out of heavy leaf springs twenty years back---and a
dumb adze that I mistakenly ground in-cannel---and all these tools are behaving
just as if they were made by T H Witherby himself, over this whole time. Tough
edges that stay sharp, nice color deep in the steel...Very satisfying, rolling
your own framing chisels, and well worth having a dead arm for a day or two...
  
   I never had to make a froe, since the PNW coast is littered with them (well,
not *now*, of course, but like Stanley #1s, they really *were* everywhere when
nobody wanted them) but as you say, if you want to forge your OWN froe, leaf
springs should make a *great* one, if they're thick enough. Most of the hard
work's already done, ain't it?

  I sold a froe or two on the list a good while back, but have not seen ANY
going cheap since the turn of the century. But I swear, when I took the smithing
class at Pratt, in Seattle, there were several froes in the metal bin, waiting
to be made into pot hangers and pukey metal ducks.

 I will keep an eye out for froes and if lucky, the list will be the first to
hear about it. I believe Jack Birky has a froe or two, if he's selling stuff
lately.
 
                          best to all galoots, everywhere, gam in OlyWA/USA


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Friday, April 9, 2021, 09:55:56 AM PDT, scottg  wrote:
 
 I once saw a froe made from a vehicular leaf spring.

OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe.
   The bane of knife and other toolmakers, it would do great for a real 
froe.
It would take a heavy truck spring. Ordinary pickup springs are way too 
thin. But the big ones are 1/2" + thick.

The stuff is tenacious and wants to return to its shape on quenching, 
even after heavy forging.
  And it would probably take a power hammer to form a proper eye and 
evenly taper from spine to edge in a true wedge.

  But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a 
great froe!
I haven't seen it done myself. But it could be.
I just don't see anyone volunteering for the job hahahah
yours scott
who has worked OTS a time or two


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273422 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2021‑04‑09 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
From Gary
> Scott---
>   In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel and
tool steel? Serious question!
>


From Scott
> OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe.


>  But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a 
> great froe!


There are a dozen other metallurgists and blacksmiths on the list that could
(and I hope do) say it better than I.

Here it goes.

1. There’s nothing wrong with making a froe from a truck spring, but it’s more
about convenient starting shape than it is about metal.

2. Not to disagree too heavily with Scott, but froes have been made out of soft
(ish) steel for quite a while and they work just great. No need for hardening or
tempering. No need for edge retention or anything else that would steer a person
toward some steel alloy capable of such. Mild steel, the kind that’s plentiful
is usually either 1018 or 1020 or A36. The 1018 and 1020 describe a steel that
has .18 or .20 percent of carbon in it’s formula. A36 doesn’t describe a steel
composition, but instead sets minimum performance standards for that steel.

3. Old truck springs usually get the label of 5160 steel, which again is a
composition label that among other things includes .60 percent carbon. It’s
often referred to as 60 “points” of carbon.

1018 has .18 percent carbon, so 18 “points”. It is not hardenable, yes even with
the galoot superquench.

Lots of automotive parts use medium carbon steels. These have enough carbon to
be hardenable, but that hardness depends on how much carbon there is.

Axles and tie rods are often 4140 steel (40 “points”, you now get it) and can
get hard. Spring is often 5160, and it gets harder than 4140 at it’s hardest.

“High carbon” steels are up in the 80 and 90 and 100 and 110 “point” range.

4. Here’s two things most non-metallurgists need to know about steel and
strength.

a) ALL steels have very similar modulus of elasticity, which means that if you
apply a force that makes them bend, they all bend about the same amount given
the same amount of force. This is called ELASTIC Deformation.

We’ve all seen steel get bent by a force, but spring back when that force is
removed. And we’ve all seen steel get bent to an extent that when the force is
removed, even though it springs back some, there is some permanent bend
introduce. This is called PLASTIC Deformation.

b) higher strength steels, even though they have the same amount of ELASTIC
deformation as low carbon steels, can withstand a LOT more force before they
PLASTICALLY deform. This is why spring applications (where you WANT it to return
to form) involve alloys of at least a medium carbon steel.

5. The medium and higher carbon steels do not need to be hardened in order to
have this higher elastic deformation limit. A froe made from truck spring (5160)
will be tougher just because it’s 5160, even when you don’t harden or temper it.
It’s automatically a superior froe, and there’s no need to proceed with those
steps.

6. A hardened steel is virtually always a more brittle steel. That’s the
tradeoff. So chisels aiming for rockwell 62 for that super keen edge are also
gonna be brittle. This is a generalization. Fancy alloys are always coming down
the pike. A froe needs to be tough way more than it needs to be hard. It’s
subject to many forces form the handle and the froe club. Also if it DOES fail,
you’d much rather it bend than snap.

7. The upper limit for carbon that contributes to hardenability is in the range
of 1.3%. Past that, and the carbon does things that reduce the hardenability.
Cast iron has 2 to 4% carbon, for instance. Not hardenable AND brittle!

8. There are tons of alloys out there and each is like a recipe with different
methods of achieving it’s max softness and hardness. Sometimes designated by the
speed of it’s quench. O1 and O2 are very forgiving alloys that harden fine in
Oil, hence the O. W1 and W2 are alloys that need the speed a Water quench
provides, hence the W. A1 and A2 are air quenching alloys, as are D2, L2, A33,
H13, and S7.

Obviously, I’m leaving a lot out, but these are basics.


Here’s the short version: You CAN make a froe out of truck spring, but mild
steel works fine and hammers much easier. Don’t bother hardening or tempering.


A metallurgist in another life,
Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
273423 Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> 2021‑04‑09 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Matthew,

Thank you for that nicely detailed explanation. I've printed it to go in my
'Indispensable Galoot Info File.'

Tim

Watching seeds germinate is more fun than watching paint dry...but only
just.
273424 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2021‑04‑09 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Well said Matthew!   Even as 'one of the blacksmiths" I learned quite a
bit, especially the upper limits of carbon content.

Speaking of leaf springs, couple Januarys ago a buddy of mine came up to
forge leaf hinges for his Teardrop trailer. Big Round door like a hobbit
hole so he was looking for a forged look. Not thinking about it, we used a
bunch of leaf spring I had laying around, and maybe leaves out of eight in
I started suggested we punch the holes hot, suddenly thinking about the
material we were using.

'no, not yet' said Phil, still a little unsure of where on the trailer and
door the bolts for the hinges were going to go.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51105601474/

'why don't we just punch some of the holes, maybe the ones on the ends of
the leaves' thinking this stuff was going to be hard to drill, especially
in phil's far more wood oriented shop.

No dice, finished all 4 hinges, even had time to play around with some
angle iron sculpture.

About a month later, I get an email picturing a pile of broken, burned and
just rounded off carbide drill bits, along with a smoked cordless drill.

the only text 'next time we'll punch the holes'

Michael

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:15 PM Matthew Groves 
wrote:

> From Gary
> > Scott---
> >   In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel
> and tool steel? Serious question!
> >
>
>
> From Scott
> > OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe.
>
>
> >  But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a
> > great froe!
>
>
> There are a dozen other metallurgists and blacksmiths on the list that
> could (and I hope do) say it better than I.
>
> Here it goes.
>
> 1. There’s nothing wrong with making a froe from a truck spring, but it’s
> more about convenient starting shape than it is about metal.
>
> 2. Not to disagree too heavily with Scott, but froes have been made out of
> soft (ish) steel for quite a while and they work just great. No need for
> hardening or tempering. No need for edge retention or anything else that
> would steer a person toward some steel alloy capable of such. Mild steel,
> the kind that’s plentiful is usually either 1018 or 1020 or A36. The 1018
> and 1020 describe a steel that has .18 or .20 percent of carbon in it’s
> formula. A36 doesn’t describe a steel composition, but instead sets minimum
> performance standards for that steel.
>
> 3. Old truck springs usually get the label of 5160 steel, which again is a
> composition label that among other things includes .60 percent carbon. It’s
> often referred to as 60 “points” of carbon.
>
> 1018 has .18 percent carbon, so 18 “points”. It is not hardenable, yes
> even with the galoot superquench.
>
> Lots of automotive parts use medium carbon steels. These have enough
> carbon to be hardenable, but that hardness depends on how much carbon there
> is.
>
> Axles and tie rods are often 4140 steel (40 “points”, you now get it) and
> can get hard. Spring is often 5160, and it gets harder than 4140 at it’s
> hardest.
>
> “High carbon” steels are up in the 80 and 90 and 100 and 110 “point” range.
>
> 4. Here’s two things most non-metallurgists need to know about steel and
> strength.
>
> a) ALL steels have very similar modulus of elasticity, which means that if
> you apply a force that makes them bend, they all bend about the same amount
> given the same amount of force. This is called ELASTIC Deformation.
>
> We’ve all seen steel get bent by a force, but spring back when that force
> is removed. And we’ve all seen steel get bent to an extent that when the
> force is removed, even though it springs back some, there is some permanent
> bend introduce. This is called PLASTIC Deformation.
>
> b) higher strength steels, even though they have the same amount of
> ELASTIC deformation as low carbon steels, can withstand a LOT more force
> before they PLASTICALLY deform. This is why spring applications (where you
> WANT it to return to form) involve alloys of at least a medium carbon steel.
>
> 5. The medium and higher carbon steels do not need to be hardened in order
> to have this higher elastic deformation limit. A froe made from truck
> spring (5160) will be tougher just because it’s 5160, even when you don’t
> harden or temper it. It’s automatically a superior froe, and there’s no
> need to proceed with those steps.
>
> 6. A hardened steel is virtually always a more brittle steel. That’s the
> tradeoff. So chisels aiming for rockwell 62 for that super keen edge are
> also gonna be brittle. This is a generalization. Fancy alloys are always
> coming down the pike. A froe needs to be tough way more than it needs to be
> hard. It’s subject to many forces form the handle and the froe club. Also
> if it DOES fail, you’d much rather it bend than snap.
>
> 7. The upper limit for carbon that contributes to hardenability is in the
> range of 1.3%. Past that, and the carbon does things that reduce the
> hardenability. Cast iron has 2 to 4% carbon, for instance. Not hardenable
> AND brittle!
>
> 8. There are tons of alloys out there and each is like a recipe with
> different methods of achieving it’s max softness and hardness. Sometimes
> designated by the speed of it’s quench. O1 and O2 are very forgiving alloys
> that harden fine in Oil, hence the O. W1 and W2 are alloys that need the
> speed a Water quench provides, hence the W. A1 and A2 are air quenching
> alloys, as are D2, L2, A33, H13, and S7.
>
> Obviously, I’m leaving a lot out, but these are basics.
>
>
> Here’s the short version: You CAN make a froe out of truck spring, but
> mild steel works fine and hammers much easier. Don’t bother hardening or
> tempering.
>
>
> A metallurgist in another life,
> Matthew Groves
> Springfield, MO
>
>
> 
>
>
>

-- 
Michael
273441 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2021‑04‑15 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
So would it be safe to say if I went out to the shed and found a piece of
Cold Rolled or Hot Rolled 1/2" x 3 or 4" say 12 to 16" long and welded a
3"  long piece of 2' BLACK PIPE  on for an  Eye  , then ground  or forged a
taper for the edge , I would have a servicable froe ?

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:15 PM Matthew Groves 
wrote:
273442 Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> 2021‑04‑15 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
You might consider creating a slight taper on the eye, larger on the
bottom. Otherwise you will be knocking the blade off the handle as you
pound the froe downward. The handle should also be tapered at the bottom.

Tim

Waiting for my Mariachi pepper seeds to germinate.
273443 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
if one wanted to get really fancy one could take some old wrought iron
wagon wheel tire (tyre, jeff), forge an eye on it (easy peasy, wrought
loves to stick to itself), and split it to receive an old file.  forge weld
the file in, taper the wrought blade heavy at the top and fine at the file,
soak it in muriatic acid for a few hours, and you've got yourself a pretty
pretty little froe.  as the learned mr. groves mentions above, you won't
even need to harden or temper the file bit, since you don't want it
particularly sharp.

michael, do you think jim austin would teach a class in this? :)

on a not dissimilar note, herr suwczinsky helped me forge some 3' long
pintle hinges a number of years back.  i didn't have a forge, you see.  we
whacked barrels on a couple of pieces of 1/4" x 2" mild steel, and didn't
seal the barrels (we could have turned them out and forge or otherwise
welded them).  they're on, holding a heavy gate and not opening from their
final cylindrical-ness.  the point is one of those wouldn't have been too
hard to convert to a froe (cut to length, taper the barrel, taper the
blade, cut off an old baseball bat for a handle, and robert's my mother's
brother).  for as much as anyone among us might use a froe, excepting the
outlier or three, i'd bet that'd be enough to split your greenwood for
years to come.

bill
felton, ca
273444 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
I haven’t seen an L-N froe up close, but they use some sort of bolt-on system to
keep the handle in place when they have a round socket

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/lie-nielsen-froes-langsner-froe-

Ed Minchn
273445 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
And just as I sent this, I noticed that soemthing had magically appeared in my
inbox last night - a how-to video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdtmbq4cY7A

Ed Minch
273446 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Yes, I’d say it would be very safe to say that.


Once more I ask “what level of duty will you call on it for?”


May not be pretty (just give it some paint)  but froes are workers, not pretty
toys.


You may choose to spend spend spend hundreds of shingles for a fancy Japanese
hand moulded, hardened in dead horses, touched by a living god old bloke with a
smithy froe, known as a shibizikudon and decorated with precious metal inlay and
a rare gemstone.

Or - get thee to the shed and be splitting by lunchtime.  Your choice.   and may
I watch, either way?



Richard Wilson
where the sun rose onto white over that has now burned away to cloudless sky and
a blazing sun




> On 15 Apr 2021, at 22:12, james rich  wrote:
> 
> So would it be safe to say if I went out to the shed and found a piece of
> Cold Rolled or Hot Rolled 1/2" x 3 or 4" say 12 to 16" long and welded a
> 3"  long piece of 2' BLACK PIPE  on for an  Eye  , then ground  or forged a
> taper for the edge , I would have a servicable froe ?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:15 PM Matthew Groves 
> wrote:
> 
>> From Gary
>>> Scott---
>>>  In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel
>> and tool steel? Serious question!
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From Scott
>>> OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe.
>> 
>> 
>>> But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a
>>> great froe!
>> 
>> 
>> There are a dozen other metallurgists and blacksmiths on the list that
>> could (and I hope do) say it better than I.
>> 
>> Here it goes.
>> 
>> 1. There’s nothing wrong with making a froe from a truck spring, but it’s
>> more about convenient starting shape than it is about metal.
>> 
>> 2. Not to disagree too heavily with Scott, but froes have been made out of
>> soft (ish) steel for quite a while and they work just great. No need for
>> hardening or tempering. No need for edge retention or anything else that
>> would steer a person toward some steel alloy capable of such. Mild steel,
>> the kind that’s plentiful is usually either 1018 or 1020 or A36. The 1018
>> and 1020 describe a steel that has .18 or .20 percent of carbon in it’s
>> formula. A36 doesn’t describe a steel composition, but instead sets minimum
>> performance standards for that steel.
>> 
>> 3. Old truck springs usually get the label of 5160 steel, which again is a
>> composition label that among other things includes .60 percent carbon. It’s
>> often referred to as 60 “points” of carbon.
>> 
>> 1018 has .18 percent carbon, so 18 “points”. It is not hardenable, yes
>> even with the galoot superquench.
>> 
>> Lots of automotive parts use medium carbon steels. These have enough
>> carbon to be hardenable, but that hardness depends on how much carbon there
>> is.
>> 
>> Axles and tie rods are often 4140 steel (40 “points”, you now get it) and
>> can get hard. Spring is often 5160, and it gets harder than 4140 at it’s
>> hardest.
>> 
>> “High carbon” steels are up in the 80 and 90 and 100 and 110 “point” range.
>> 
>> 4. Here’s two things most non-metallurgists need to know about steel and
>> strength.
>> 
>> a) ALL steels have very similar modulus of elasticity, which means that if
>> you apply a force that makes them bend, they all bend about the same amount
>> given the same amount of force. This is called ELASTIC Deformation.
>> 
>> We’ve all seen steel get bent by a force, but spring back when that force
>> is removed. And we’ve all seen steel get bent to an extent that when the
>> force is removed, even though it springs back some, there is some permanent
>> bend introduce. This is called PLASTIC Deformation.
>> 
>> b) higher strength steels, even though they have the same amount of
>> ELASTIC deformation as low carbon steels, can withstand a LOT more force
>> before they PLASTICALLY deform. This is why spring applications (where you
>> WANT it to return to form) involve alloys of at least a medium carbon steel.
>> 
>> 5. The medium and higher carbon steels do not need to be hardened in order
>> to have this higher elastic deformation limit. A froe made from truck
>> spring (5160) will be tougher just because it’s 5160, even when you don’t
>> harden or temper it. It’s automatically a superior froe, and there’s no
>> need to proceed with those steps.
>> 
>> 6. A hardened steel is virtually always a more brittle steel. That’s the
>> tradeoff. So chisels aiming for rockwell 62 for that super keen edge are
>> also gonna be brittle. This is a generalization. Fancy alloys are always
>> coming down the pike. A froe needs to be tough way more than it needs to be
>> hard. It’s subject to many forces form the handle and the froe club. Also
>> if it DOES fail, you’d much rather it bend than snap.
>> 
>> 7. The upper limit for carbon that contributes to hardenability is in the
>> range of 1.3%. Past that, and the carbon does things that reduce the
>> hardenability. Cast iron has 2 to 4% carbon, for instance. Not hardenable
>> AND brittle!
>> 
>> 8. There are tons of alloys out there and each is like a recipe with
>> different methods of achieving it’s max softness and hardness. Sometimes
>> designated by the speed of it’s quench. O1 and O2 are very forgiving alloys
>> that harden fine in Oil, hence the O. W1 and W2 are alloys that need the
>> speed a Water quench provides, hence the W. A1 and A2 are air quenching
>> alloys, as are D2, L2, A33, H13, and S7.
>> 
>> Obviously, I’m leaving a lot out, but these are basics.
>> 
>> 
>> Here’s the short version: You CAN make a froe out of truck spring, but
>> mild steel works fine and hammers much easier. Don’t bother hardening or
>> tempering.
>> 
>> 
>> A metallurgist in another life,
>> Matthew Groves
>> Springfield, MO
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273449 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
With a froe it all depends on what you plan to do with it.
  Practically anything you cobble together will work for occasional 
splitting stock for small projects here and there, at your chopping block.

   But once you commit to busting out a zillion shakes to cover a roof 
or a shed or something, things start to matter. A fully tapered blade 
comes into its own then.

One thing nobody ever talks about is holding the shake bolt. You can't 
just chase them around on open ground for long. It'll wear you to a 
frazzle.  (been there)
  I used a pretty short tree stump, flattened on the face, with a corral 
made of scrap 2X4's along the ground, to keep the bottom end of the bolt 
in place and have something to pull back against.
You sure need something when you are going to be doing a lot of them.

  I never saw anyone else's solution. I have seen large homes with steep 
pitched big roofs covered in hand split shakes.  I always wondered how 
other guys did it.
yours scott




-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273451 Kirk Eppler 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:46 AM scottg  wrote:

>
>
> One thing nobody ever talks about is holding the shake bolt. You can't
> just chase them around on open ground for long. It'll wear you to a
> frazzle.  (been there)
>   I used a pretty short tree stump, flattened on the face, with a corral
> made of scrap 2X4's along the ground, to keep the bottom end of the bolt
> in place and have something to pull back against.
> You sure need something when you are going to be doing a lot of them.
>
>
Glad you brought this up Scott.  You posted a pic of this some time back,
but the angle really didn't show what we needed to see.  Can you post a new
picture, so we can actually see what you built.  I was thinking of this
while splitting firewood a few weeks back, and when fishing out
froes earlier in this thread.

-- 
Kirk Eppler  Fun time over, time to dive back into a video meeting.
273452 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑04‑16 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
actually see what you built.

Oh how I would love nothing more than to post a picture!
But it was many years ago.
I had built a sizeable new woodshed from poles and a shake roof.
But I was in my late 20's and hardly have a picture of anything then!

   I do seem to remember a re-creation some time only a few decades ago.
But I can't find that either.

If I could sketch I would draw it out,
But sadly, as it is, nobody would be able to tell what I drew

For an example
  Here was my plan for my granddaughters pad
  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/babybed15.jpg

Here is what she got
  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/babybed11.jpg
   yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273481 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑04‑21 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Froe-less Galoots:

I just stumbled on this while searching for something else:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B089MC9PRC/ref=sspa_mw_detail_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_
rd_i=B089MC9PRCp13NParams&smid=A3CRDQGDJQTW41

The description looks very promising.

John Ruth
Driven indoors by a cold weather front with thunderstorms
273482 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑04‑21 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
I have one that looks somewhat like this. It was ok for the small
rushed project I bought it for. I wouldn't get it for long term use.

Mine is too thin - not even a quarter inch. I wish the socket were
stronger; it gives me a feel as if it would twist under demanding use.
And the real annoyance is that the blade is sharpened with a single
bevel. I have enough trouble steering a split without the froe taking
the wheel from me!

YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "John Ruth" 
To: oldtools@g...
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday April 21 2021 2:49:18PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Froe made from vehicular leaf spring

 Froe-less Galoots:

 I just stumbled on this while searching for something else:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B089MC9PRC/ref=sspa_mw_detail_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_
rd_i=B089MC9PRCp13NParams&smid=A3CRDQGDJQTW41
 />
 The description looks very promising.

 John Ruth
 Driven indoors by a cold weather front with thunderstorms

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
273486 Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> 2021‑04‑22 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
$3  cheaper ($29.99) if you buy from autobodynow (another Amazon 
seller). Does that weld look ok?
273487 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2021‑04‑22 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Long out of context but,

Froes are on the mind so..
Fancy Froe  (wrought, wrapped, welded, etched) would be like a solid ebony,
ivory tipped plow, with inlay, function the least of its attributes.

Been trying to locate a pic of the Alex Bealer Award from ABANA. That's a
Froe! Engraved, carved, with a stand,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51132363939/in/dateposted-public/
(from a 2012 Hammer in-knew it was a cool froe, totally ignorant as to what
it was or why SMH)

I don't think there's a froe possible that Jim Austin would consider
teaching,

Not complicated enough, reference his Swedish Axe demo-
http://forgedaxes.com/axe-tour-of-norway-and-sweden-part-4/

Recalling those gates hinges, I was surprised to discover a rolled barrel
in thick enough steel is just as strong as welded. Bill's projects are
often scaled up!

I just visited an accomplished smith who has gotten into green woodworking
and whose self made froe was a couple of things, very  sharp,  forged of
tool steel, about an inch tall and tough to steer, a punched eye 1x1x3/4
deep. I'll drop off my old one as a pattern for version 2, along with some
extra braces, auger bits, drawknife and an adze head-the purge of the
duplicates continues.

Michael


On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 7:42 PM Bill Kasper  wrote:

> if one wanted to get really fancy one could take some old wrought iron
> wagon wheel tire (tyre, jeff), forge an eye on it (easy peasy, wrought
> loves to stick to itself), and split it to receive an old file.  forge weld
> the file in, taper the wrought blade heavy at the top and fine at the file,
> soak it in muriatic acid for a few hours, and you've got yourself a pretty
> pretty little froe.  as the learned mr. groves mentions above, you won't
> even need to harden or temper the file bit, since you don't want it
> particularly sharp.
>
> michael, do you think jim austin would teach a class in this? :)
>
> on a not dissimilar note, herr suwczinsky helped me forge some 3' long
> pintle hinges a number of years back.  i didn't have a forge, you see.  we
> whacked barrels on a couple of pieces of 1/4" x 2" mild steel, and didn't
> seal the barrels (we could have turned them out and forge or otherwise
> welded them).  they're on, holding a heavy gate and not opening from their
> final cylindrical-ness.  the point is one of those wouldn't have been too
> hard to convert to a froe (cut to length, taper the barrel, taper the
> blade, cut off an old baseball bat for a handle, and robert's my mother's
> brother).  for as much as anyone among us might use a froe, excepting the
> outlier or three, i'd bet that'd be enough to split your greenwood for
> years to come.
>
> bill
> felton, ca
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:53 PM Tim Pendleton 
> wrote:
>
> > You might consider creating a slight taper on the eye, larger on the
> > bottom. Otherwise you will be knocking the blade off the handle as you
> > pound the froe downward. The handle should also be tapered at the bottom.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > Waiting for my Mariachi pepper seeds to germinate.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 5:12 PM james rich  wrote:
> >
> > > So would it be safe to say if I went out to the shed and found a piece
> of
> > > Cold Rolled or Hot Rolled 1/2" x 3 or 4" say 12 to 16" long and welded
> a
> > > 3"  long piece of 2' BLACK PIPE  on for an  Eye  , then ground  or
> > forged a
> > > taper for the edge , I would have a servicable froe ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
>
>
>

-- 
Michael
273488 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2021‑04‑22 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
In all of our tool-making lives we’re making choices between something that will
function vs something we have the ability to make.

Can’t forge a wedge shape blade? Maybe a bevel will suffice.

Can’t forge-weld an eye? Maybe a thick wrap will work instead.

Don’t have a forge? Some leaf springs have the eye already formed.

Don’t want to mess with any of it? Scads of dudes will take your money and get
you all set up. Who’s got time for forging tools if what you really want to do
is work green wood or make shingles.

Figure out what part you WANT to be doing (the woodworking? The tool making? The
smelting?) and then order your resources to allow the most of that thing.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
273489 gary allan may 2021‑04‑22 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
GGs:

   Everybody knows that a froe with a sharp shoulder on the top edge---like this
'deluxe' one has---is no good, right? I bought one like it, that had been
'restored' from being mushroomed by splitting firewood with a sledge hammer, and
the restorer had painstakingly ground and filed a clean square trailing edge on
it. He put a fair amount of work into it, and was pretty proud OF it, and
thankfully it wasn't me who had to tell him he'd wasted most of his time. Still,
it was worth whatever I paid for it, maybe $30?, and a few minutes with a tailed
demon and a few more minutes with a file restored the gently curved butt cheeks
of a levering tool that doesn't waste stock.
  Dogwood for a beater has never been excelled, in my experience, though black
locust seems to be just as good...
           
                               and all the best to all galoots everywhere; gam
in OlyWA/USA

                                             


 

   
 
 
 Michael posted this 'gentleman's froe'---with stand!

Been trying to locate a pic of the Alex Bealer Award from ABANA. That's a
Froe! Engraved, carved, with a stand,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51132363939/in/dateposted-public/


(from a 2012 Hammer in-knew it was a cool froe, totally ignorant as to what
it was or why SMH)
273490 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑04‑23 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
On 2021-04-22 2:10 p.m., gary allan may via groups.io wrote:
>   Dogwood for a beater has never been excelled, in my experience, though black
locust seems to be just as good...

Elm branchwood pretty good too, IMlittleE.

Don
273491 Dave <dwchat@h...> 2021‑04‑23 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
this one looks even more interesting, is that Peter Folansby modeling 
the usefulness? It must be good!

https://www.amazon.com/Timber-Tuff-TMW-62-Shingle-
Froe/dp/B01LZ56XIS/ref=bmx_5?pd_rd_w=1USYO&pf_rd_p=b56a886c-2bb4-4e74-b4cf-23d7a
76693c8&pf_rd_r=NC7FY234QWGWJYMB460X&pd_rd_r=efda5a16-7e08-4ff5-ad92-5b37e9af915
4&pd_rd_wg=jO94u&pd_rd_i=B01LZ56XIS&psc=1
273492 Spike <spikethebike@c...> 2021‑04‑23 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
Sent from the seat of my pants

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Dave  wrote:
> 
> this one looks even more interesting, is that Peter Folansby modeling the
usefulness? It must be good!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Timber-Tuff-TMW-62-Shingle-
Froe/dp/B01LZ56XIS/ref=bmx_5?pd_rd_w=1USYO&pf_rd_p=b56a886c-2bb4-4e74-b4cf-23d7a
76693c8&pf_rd_r=NC7FY234QWGWJYMB460X&pd_rd_r=efda5a16-7e08-4ff5-ad92-5b37e9af915
4&pd_rd_wg=jO94u&pd_rd_i=B01LZ56XIS&psc=
> 1

 So when did they start anodizing steel? Seems rather counter productive to me.
 Spike
273494 gary allan may 2021‑04‑23 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
I hear about elm's toughness in old books, but have never had a chance to handle
any :(


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 05:19:30 PM PDT, Don Schwartz  wrote:
 
 On 2021-04-22 2:10 p.m., gary allan may via groups.io wrote:
>  Dogwood for a beater has never been excelled, in my experience, though black
locust seems to be just as good...

Elm branchwood pretty good too, IMlittleE.

Don
273495 Charlie Driggs 2021‑04‑23 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
> On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:13 PM, gary allan may via groups.io
 wrote:
> 
> I hear about elm's toughness in old books, but have never had a chance to
handle any :(
> 

I made my froe beedle out of black locust, and regularly use two canes I made
out of American elm.  Good choices for both uses.

I’d rank the black locust slightly harder to work with a spokeshave or anything
else, as its grain is more stringy than American elm.  This makes it difficult
to smooth it without tear-out.  Black locust also bends a bit more than elm when
equally loaded.  ‘Stringy' translates into a bit nasty when splitting a green
black locust log, as it took me about 7 hrs to split & quarter an 8 ft x 12-15”
fresh log years ago with a maul and five wedges in 90 degF heat.  When working
the dried wood,  rubbing your skin against the grain can be painful, but the
slivers generally are big and easily pulled out (YNNAMHIKT).  As I grew up next
to a large farm that had miles of black locust fencing for cattle, I can assure
you it is not smart to try to slide across those sun-dried fence rails wearing
shorts, but those fences last for decades.

The leg vise I salvaged from my grandfather’s workbench years ago was made from
red elm, which is similar looking, more pink-red in color than the white
American elm, and it is not the same as the white variety.  I’ve worked the
vise’s wood to replace the damage on the top of the vertical piece with a
spliced on piece of white oak, and another piece of red elm; both were
definitely not as hard or as strong.

The American elm I use comes from a 35 yr old / 60 ft high tree in our back yard
that lost a couple of its multiple trunk sections to high winds.  When seasoned,
it is a mild PITA to work into smooth cane shafts, but there is no doubt a 7/8”
elm cane shaft (about 22mm) will hold my weight and then some.  It bends very
slightly (perhaps 1mm over a 36” length) when dry and loaded laterally with as
much force as I can put into it;  I doubt any cane I have made would break
without considerable effort being involved.

I would never want to get smacked with either an elm or a black locust stick, so
either one ought to be just fine to use for driving a froe.

As for you guys lusting for a froe, I noticed Tony Seo found an antique,
probably blacksmith-made one in fairly good shape today — you might want to take
a look at his posting.

Charlie Driggs
273499 Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> 2021‑04‑26 Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring
alder branch knob with a nice debarked handle works well, too.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 1:10 PM gary may  wrote
[SNIPPED PER FAQ]:

Recent Bios FAQ