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272056 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2020‑11‑07 windows above benches
for those of you with windows above your benches, how high above the bench
is the sill?  what do you keep there?

i know it will vary, i'm just trying to get ideas.  i am building a
workspace, and have a window i am thinking about putting above my 33" high
bench.

thanks,
bill
felton, ca
272060 Robert Brazile <r.brazile@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
A couple inches. Nothing on the sill itself, but I have a tendency to prop
things on the concrete block foundation wall just beneath it. Not a great
place for things, so I'm trying to break that habit by making specific
places for the things I usually put there -- can be anything from a
shooting board to unused trammel points to the scrap blocks I use for
protecting items being clamped or uh, held fast.

I have, however, taken a note from the Schwarz and hung chisel racks and a
shelf for layout tools across the windows, which I've found to be very
handy. Although I have to be a bit careful opening the window on the right
in nice weather.

Here's a shot that shows the idea, with a bonus incipient Saalburg bench in
progress last spring.

https://flic.kr/p/2j1sVLd

Robert Brazile
Arlington, Mass.
272061 Troy Livingston <livingstonstandardtime@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
The windows in my new shop are about 48" up from the floor, this works 
because I also have a 10 ft ceiling. Note: I only determined it to be a 
workable shop and not a room filled with heaps of old crap last weekend 
so haven't had a chance to work with things.  The sills are horizontal 
surfaces, so attract the usual detritus, most of the stuff there now are 
things I haven't sorted out where to keep or indeed if they are to be kept.

My wife can't open the windows and it would be a stretch for me to reach 
over the bench to do so. However I put these in purely for natural light 
and haven't opened them since the construction was completed. I'm in 
North Florida and the prevailing winds make the windows at each end of 
the building useful for ventilation during the brief periods in the 
spring and fall when it makes sense.

Photo:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/91137513@N.../50575413313/in/dateposted-p
ublic/>

Troy
272063 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
I’m a fan of windows, so I was delighted that the decades old add on to the add
on became my shop when we moved into our “forever home” in 2007.

Single pane aluminum, and the roof leaks, but I do get light.

I don’t care that sills collect things. Clearly not a working shop, but I can do
the standard buy-another-tub-and-clear-the-bench-off dance as good as anyone!

https://shar
e.icloud.com/photos/0swOJsJpKa0K246kUEQDpwk_w
272065 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
Just spent this mornings coffee rebuilding the rack for the braces and
pondering Bill's question.

I've got a windowsill and added shelf about 8 inches above my 36 inch high
workbench and the shelf is a mix of stuff that gets grabbed all the time,
Beeswax, soapstone, block planes, tape measures, rules, calipers etc and
little used tools, shop momentos and cool stuff.

There is also a Schwarz inspired wooden tool rack, screwdrivers, pointing
things, sharp things and pliers, across the 40 inch window.
South facing lets in way too much light, chiaroscuro light!  Considering an
awning over that window.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../50576055658/in/dateposted-pu
blic/

I like a handy shelf but am also a packrat. It's probably unwise,
structurally, to have so much stuff hung on the walls.

Some culling has been occurring.

Looking forward to Bill's new shop warming one day.

Michael


On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:06 PM Dragon List  wrote:

> for those of you with windows above your benches, how high above the bench
> is the sill?  what do you keep there?
>
> i know it will vary, i'm just trying to get ideas.  i am building a
> workspace, and have a window i am thinking about putting above my 33" high
> bench.
>
> thanks,
> bill
> felton, ca
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-- 
Michael
272066 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
I can't believe you are getting to pick!! hahaahaah
    My old bench is in front of the window because it was the logical 
place to put it.
The window is about a foot above the bench surface?

   I am not saying I laid it out that way, but I have "made do" for 
decades and it hasn't hurt me much. heehehe
I do have lots of stuff on the window sill. Ha
   My most used drivers, awls, bits and chisels.

Real important to me was fitting the "filler strip" to tightly fit the 
uneven concrete wall behind the bench.
   Super inconvenient trying to fish out stuff that fell off behind the 
bench.
Took me a few years to break down and fit one.

http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/oldbench4.
jpg
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
272068 Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
Hi Scott--

And everyone else, of course.  I don't chip in very often anymore, and this
is definitely a small chip, but--

My feeling about windows is that they should maximize the view and the
light.  If you have a choice in where they go, consider
a.  The top of the window should be a bit above eye level.
b.  Generally, the top of the windows should be level.  It's visually
jarring to see some higher than others.

The windows in my son Ben's shop, which we built a couple of years ago, are
4 feet square, and the sills are even with the bench top.  That puts the
top of the windows at 7 feet, which works well with the wall framing.

PK
Still here, just don't talk much.


On Sat, Nov 7, 2020 at 9:51 AM scott grandstaff 
wrote:
272070 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
GG's:

My two cents worth regarding shop windows  and racks / shelves across same:

A now-passed neighbor had a big workshop shed, maybe 600 sq. Ft., on his
oversized lot.  He had a long window about a foot above the bench, extending to
slightly above eye level. Thus, it was wide but not tall.  Seemed like a
wonderful place to stand and work; good outdoor view.

That said:
1) DO NOT block your fire emergency egress by building fixed shelves or racks
across the window! Make them so that they can lift off wooden pegs and be tossed
aside in a panic.

2) Consider the effects of ultraviolet light on anything you intend to hang in a
sunny window.  I'd love to have a rack of screwdrivers, nut-drivers, and the
like with beautiful translucent Tennite handles in many colors across a window.
When the sunlight shines through them, it would be the galoot's equivalent to
stained glass! Trouble is, I think the sunlight would embrittle them.

Just my thoughts. My benches are on blank walls.

John Ruth
272071 Kirk Eppler 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
You've seen my shop, shortly after this pic was taken.  No window above the
bench, but a shelf about 2": below eye level, then the power strip / tool
rack some inches above the work surface.  Because of rust concerns, I don't
keep edge tools behind the power strip, but awls, turnscrews, plane hammer,
squares and marking gauges are there for the most part.  The shelf holds a
joiner too big for the drawer, some folding rules, bottles of BLO beeswax
turps., scratch paper, winding sticks etc.  There is a magnet on the front
now for sticking ideas up, project notes, etc.

Dang, forgot about the two holes for holdfasts on the end, they have not
been home in a while.  Of course, the whole bench hasn't been that clean
since the Bagathon in 2010
<https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking
/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/100912-BAGaThon-KE/>

https://k
irkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop-Stuff/i-6d8GkVP

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:06 PM Dragon List  wrote:

> for those of you with windows above your benches, how high above the bench
> is the sill?  what do you keep there?
>
>
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, who picked up a nice heavy splitting maul for
cheap today.
272072 Greg Isola <gregorywisola@g...> 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
Hey, Bill:

A subject near and dear to my heart!

When I moved into my shop, I immediately placed my 3-foot high bench
> beneath a 2x6 foot window with a bottom sill roughly 5 feet above the
> floor. This is a relatively high window. Great light, and plenty of room
> for wall-mounted tool storage beneath (but still well above benchtop
> height). Except for an hour or two each afternoon when the sun was in my
> eyes, this was a great setup. (I share John's general concern about tools
> stored in direct sunlight.) But...

I've since flipped my bench 180 degrees and moved it 3-4 feet from the
wall. I installed a sturdy, foot-wide shelf under the long window and
placed three machinist chests on the shelf. Now I work with my back to the
window with my most-used tools in the banks of little drawers right behind
me (or scattered across the benchtop). Instead of the sun in my eyes every
so often, I now get shadows on the benchtop in the late afternoon, but this
is fixable with shop lighting.
So I'm not a big proponent of a bench you can walk all the way around. It
is not always an option, of course, but if it is, I recommend giving it a
try. I have vises mounted on opposite corners and have several mini
workstations all around the bench. This suits my work, but of course your
mileage may vary!

Take care, all of you.

Greg Isola
Alameda, CA
272073 galoot@l... 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
Do I see recycled curved front dresser drawers in that pic?  Excellent  
use of material...

Esther
Quoting scott grandstaff :
272074 Erik Levin 2020‑11‑07 Re: windows above benches
This is one of those things where I am kind of torn:

On one hand, it is nice to have a view

On the other, I worked in a shop with a bench, lathe, drill press, and milling
machine  backed up to the windows, and a southern view, and other lathe and mill
on the other side of the 5m wide (20m long) room, so the light was to the
operators back. Stool height was a bit below the bench height, maybe 50mm.

This experience told me that the direction matters. The southern view brought
lots of light, but all direct. It was less than ideal much of the day for the
bench and machines that faced the window. It also told me that the window stool
should not be an extension of the bench, and that it is REALLY easy to break a
window at that height and proximity. It also told me that a screen (or sheet of
lexan) between the lathe and a window is useful, though the shop manager didn't
agree. Then again, he didn't seem to care about the mess, and would yell when
someone (usually me) tried to clean it up. Really.

My current drafting space at home has waist to ceiling, north facing windows
behind the drafting table, and skylights with diffusers. Beautiful. Fantastic
light during the day. Highly recommended (above 30 degrees north, at least).

The shop space I had with west facing a number of years ago (nice until about
2PM, good otherwise) had window stool about 300mm (12 inches) above the bench
surface, two windows behind the bench, topping nice and high (2.5m? maybe). This
was good. Shelf was between the windows (maybe 800mm long) but nothing to block
the view or risk breakage of glass. This was my space, so I could do that.

My current shop space (personal) is basement, so the windows are high enough
that they do not come into play in this topic.


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
272080 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2020‑11‑09 Re: windows above benches
thanks, all.  i’m at a decision point on a workspace i am building.  i like
the idea of a view (otherwise why live where i do?), and the wall in
question faces mildly west of south.  trees shade most of the morning light
in summer, and winter light here is not so harsh (and it will be good to
have).

i have an old steel double casement window @3x3’ to install into an 8’ wall
over a 33” bench height, so it sounds best to push it to the top of the
wall and have space between.

greg, it’s just not going to be big enough in there (think michael’s) to
have four side access...

best,
bill
felton, ca
272106 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2020‑11‑12 Re: windows above benches
I’ve actually tried all around bench access in my 12x12 workspace. It’s
doable for a specific project, which initially was the workbench itself!
4x4 doug fir, with small scale timber framed trestles. The bench got
dragged, pushed and levered to the middle of the floor when the sill on the
south wall rotted out and needed replacing, along with the window over the
bench.
You get good at sucking in your gut as you squeeze through the narrow
spaces at each end, sometimes it's easier to climb over.

Michael
272107 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2020‑11‑12 Re: windows above benches
Gentles,

My shop is half of a longish two-car garage with two windows on the long side.
Unfortunately they are under the deck so no direct light.  As always, I have my
bench about three feet out from the wall and I like the flexibility that it
gives me.  It also allows me to use the entire wall for tool storage with easy
access.

Since I've been sheltering in place since February, my productivity has gone way
up and I've finished lots of projects, but that's for another email.

Cheers,
John Johnston

"There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness."  Dave Barry.
272109 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑11‑13 Re: windows above benches
On 2020-11-12 11:27 a.m., Michael Suwczinsky wrote:
> I’ve actually tried all around bench access in my 12x12 workspace. It’s
> doable for a specific project, which initially was the workbench itself!
> 4x4 doug fir, with small scale timber framed trestles. The bench got
> dragged, pushed and levered to the middle of the floor when the sill on the
> south wall rotted out and needed replacing, along with the window over the
> bench.
> You get good at sucking in your gut as you squeeze through the narrow
> spaces at each end, sometimes it's easier to climb over.

I've had all-around access for many years. I'm in an unfinished 
basement, and don't want to back my bench against the concrete. ( My new 
bench has a heavy 4x4 trestle Doug Fir base too, supporting the 
split-top LV bench kit in a design much modified their plans. ) I've got 
tool panels on the concrete behind me, using French cleats bolted to the 
concrete. On the other side of the bench I have access to my midi lathe, 
wrenches and other misc tools & supplies weighing down the low 
repurposed cabinet where the lathe sits. When I'm turning, the bench 
behind me provides space for tools, supplies, drawings etc that I want 
handy for turning. It's so convenient, I can't imagine not having access 
all around. But then I have the floor space. (I'd have even more space 
if I ever finish the restoration of a large Georgian chest I started a 
few years ago. In the meanwhile, it provides storage...).

Don

-- 
“If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.” - Bill Gates
272110 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2020‑11‑13 Re: windows above benches
Don,
Last month I completed a mahogany end of bed chest that I began in 1969. I had
the carcase and an ill fitting lid. The coffin as it was dubbed traveled from
attics, garages, and basements in Austin TX, Arlington Heights IL, Knoxville TN,
Chicago, Columbus OH, Milwaukee, Memphis, TN, and Asheville, NC. 51 years later
I made a proper lid, added moulding top and bottom, made dovetailed bracket
feet, dyed the whole, wiped on oil followed by 4 coats of 1-pound cut shellac.
My longest term project.

Cheers,
John Johnston

“There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.”
272111 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑11‑14 Re: windows above benches
God bless, John.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but 51 years to complete a project is not a record
with this group.
Cheers from Waterloo
Claudio
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) <
jmjhnstn@m...> wrote:
272112 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2020‑11‑14 Re: windows above benches
Claudio, I can’t say about the group as a whole, but it is for me!
Cheers,
John Johnston

“There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.”

________________________________
272117 Thomas Conroy 2020‑11‑15 Re: windows above benches
Claudio wrote:
" bless, John.
"Correct me if I?m wrong, but 51 years to complete a project is not a record
with this group.
"Cheers from Waterloo"


 So what is the record for this group? I'm not in contention---my longest to
completion is around thirty years, and my longest (several of them) still not
done but still needed urgently, is about 35 years.
So who can top 51 years to completion? Anyone have a project still moving but
not yet done that is over 51? What about completed projects from the archives---
Anyone remember longer-than-51-years projects from past luminaries?
Tom Conroy
272118 Bill Ghio 2020‑11‑15 Re: windows above benches
> On Nov 15, 2020, at 3:58 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> Claudio wrote:
> " bless, John.
> "Correct me if I?m wrong, but 51 years to complete a project is not a record
> with this group.
> "Cheers from Waterloo"
> 
> 
>  So what is the record for this group? I'm not in contention---my longest to
completion is around thirty years, and my longest (several of them) still not
done but still needed urgently, is about 35 years.
> So who can top 51 years to completion? Anyone have a project still moving but
not yet done that is over 51? What about completed projects from the archives---
Anyone remember longer-than-51-years projects from past luminaries?
> Tom Conroy

Not fair. I can’t compete. Looking at my longest still “pending” project, I will
have to wait till I’m 110 before I restart!

Bill
272119 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑11‑15 Re: windows above benches
On 2020-11-15 1:58 p.m., Thomas Conroy wrote:
> Claudio wrote:
> " bless, John.
> "Correct me if I?m wrong, but 51 years to complete a project is not a 
> record
> with this group.
> "Cheers from Waterloo"
>
>
>  So what is the record for this group? I'm not in contention---my 
> longest to completion is around thirty years, and my longest (several 
> of them) still not done but still needed urgently, is about 35 years.
>
> So who can top 51 years to completion? Anyone have a project still 
> moving but not yet done that is over 51? What about completed projects 
> from the archives---Anyone remember longer-than-51-years projects from 
> past luminaries?
>
> Tom Conroy

Well I'm out - unless you count the wooden model motorboat I put 
together in my teens and failed to fix when it started to come apart at 
the seems due to repeated immersions. I didn't know what to do, so I put 
it in a box. I saw the box recently and thought m_a_y_be.... BUT it's 
not currently moving forward. The rocking horse carving I started in my 
twenties doesn't even come close. It's lying on a high shelf....

Don

-- 
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do
not dare that things are difficult.”
— Seneca
272121 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
I might be having a deja vu moment, but I think we had a similar discussion
a few years ago.  Alas, I am not able to find it- but I recall that it was
a stunning result.   Perhaps someone else remembers or is able to locate it?
Cheers from Windy Waterloo (entering COVID emergency protocol situation
Orange tomorrow).  Sigh.
Claudio

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 4:04 PM Thomas Conroy 
wrote:
272122 Tim <tpendleton@g...> 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
It is certainly comforting to learn about aloof these valiant efforts to
keep our group average up!
Tim

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 4:05 PM Thomas Conroy via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:
272123 Troy Livingston <livingstonstandardtime@g...> 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
Indeed. I thought I might be a contender with an Egyptian themed box 
intended to hold floppy disks that I started in High School roughly 40 
years ago.
I have it out in my new shop and occasionally think that I may yet 
finish one of these days. Except now I have a record to strive for, fame 
and fortune await in a mere decade or two.


Troy
272124 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
How does one measure the starting point?  For example, if one completes a
dimensioned drawing of the project but didn't actually start cutting
cellulose until 20 years later, does that count as a 20 year project?

-Paul, in SF, who completes no project before its time

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:12 AM Troy Livingston <
livingstonstandardtime@g...> wrote:
272125 Kirk Eppler 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
How about a project someone else started, a box for example, that I finally
put the lid’s hinges on 40+ years later.  Or finishing (shellac etc) a
project that has sat at 95%.

So many complications, that have real backstories with them.

Kirk, in Half Moon Bay, whose weekend was spent on repair and cleaning of
non list sanctioned items.  Tho the cookies that come out of the mixer
might be sanctioned, or at least acceptable at a BAGaThon.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:14 AM Paul Gardner  wrote:

> How does one measure the starting point?  For example, if one completes a
> dimensioned drawing of the project but didn't actually start cutting
> cellulose until 20 years later, does that count as a 20 year project?
>
> -Paul, in SF, who completes no project before its time
>
> --
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
272126 Troy Livingston <livingstonstandardtime@g...> 2020‑11‑16 Re: windows above benches
I'm beginning to think that we have this backwards. In a group where 
long term projects are the rule perhaps we should be looking at the 
quickest completion time for a project although the same questions 
apply. I have one that had a hard deadline of Christmas Eve and was 
completed in two days. But then that was several years after my wife 
showed me the broken sewing stiletto and I made the mistake of saying 
"sure I can make something better".
So perhaps that doesn't count.

Troy
272127 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑11‑17 Re: windows above benches
Hi Troy, I think maybe we have all completed 'emergency projects' within
shockingly narrow time constraints, so the quickest to completion wouldn't
be much fun because almost all of us would all be potential candidates.

  The fun projects are those 'special' ones, complete with 'drying out of
special timbers', sourcing of vintage hardware, careful 'design
considerations' and ' design research' that takes decades and decades of
careful thought (and the occasional beer or glass of scotch with "project
advisors").

  So maybe I was wrong about 'not a record' ( at least, I can't find the
discussion- so maybe it was a different woodworking group or something I
was thinking of?).
Perhaps 51 years is a notable record, and I was wrong not to celebrate the
relatively speedy completion of John Johnston's project in just over a half
century.

  I want to correct the record, and  I hereby nominate John Johnston as
current record holder of Not On Time Award (NOTA) - perhaps the more clever
amongst us can find a better name? Never Quick Award? Better Late Than
Never Award?

 Perhaps we have something tangible we can present to John for his valiant
efforts?

 Awards to be delivered posthumously (of course).

Cheers from  Locked Down Waterloo, (Where ALL Businesses are slowly
bleeding to death, while huge conglomerates laugh all the way to the bank)
Claudio

Don,
Last month I completed a mahogany end of bed chest that I began in 1969. I
had the carcase and an ill fitting lid. The coffin as it was dubbed
traveled from attics, garages, and basements in Austin TX, Arlington
Heights IL, Knoxville TN, Chicago, Columbus OH, Milwaukee, Memphis, TN, and
Asheville, NC. 51 years later I made a proper lid, added moulding top and
bottom, made dovetailed bracket feet, dyed the whole, wiped on oil followed
by 4 coats of 1-pound cut shellac.   My longest term project.

Cheers,
John Johnston



On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:44 PM Troy Livingston <
livingstonstandardtime@g...> wrote:
272128 Tim <tpendleton@g...> 2020‑11‑17 Re: windows above benches
On Monday, November 16, 2020, Claudio DeLorenzi 
wrote:

>
>
>   I want to correct the record, and  I hereby nominate John Johnston as
> current record holder of Not On Time Award (NOTA) - perhaps the more clever
> amongst us can find a better name? Never Quick Award? Better Late Than
> Never Award?
>
>

How about GTO - Galoot Time Optimized?

Tim

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