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271908 "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> 2020‑10‑12 crown molding application to bookcase
GGs,


I'm in a multi-month process (yeah, it's a rush job) of building a bookcase
for my daughters. It's all tulip poplar, 1x9x6 ft, which is the stock size I
could get. The top is dovetailed with common through-DTs, and the
shelves all use sliding dovetails; the back panels were resawn by hand
and fitted into grooves on the sides. I post photos on twitter as I go along,
but will eventually get around to posting a writeup here, since it's been
almost entirely hand/vintage tools.


I now find myself having made a crown moulding for it to hide the dovetails.
The moulding is 2-1/4" wide (it's from p. 192 of Bickford's book, taken
from a Rhode Island chest). I'm planning to join the corners of the moulding
with miters, but I'm worrying about expansion and contraction. What's the
best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the front and sides?
Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like a bad idea,
regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my mitered
corners.


On a related note, should I nail the miters together, or use glue and a

spline? I'd like to know what is best practice, but also what is historically
correct. My inclination is hide glue and a spline (maybe floating tenon is
more correct).


thanks,
Adam
271913 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
Adam, I tackle this issue by gluing the front strip to the carcass (long grain
to long grain so movement in its length is not an issue) then gluing the side
strips only on the front 3-4 inches. Use a fine finishing nail on the back end
of the side strips. That keeps the front mitre joint closed but allows movement
to the rear.

Cheers,
John Johnston

“There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.”
271915 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
Adam’s cornicing

Depending on the site - you could ? leave the cornice as a loose item.   You’d
need to provide bearers at the back of the cornice, and corner blocks to support
he corner - in cross section, imagine a T on its side, where the vertical bar is
actually the cornice leaning out, and the horizontal bar sits atop the casework.
A full width bar runs at the back between the ‘free’ end of the returns.  If
desired, you can screw the bars/supports down to the case at the centre points,
but that would be overkill.
All manner of bracing etc can be provided, your only issue being to ensure that
it is a loose enough drop fit that the casework expansion is not able to stretch
the joints apart.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
271916 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
Its probably not the right thing for this elegant piece of furniture. 
(sounds divine btw Adam)
   But I have always been a brad guy. Choosing and doing a workmanlike 
job with good 'ol honest brads was always a matter of pride for me. I 
started using them on my own when I began woodworking and quickly found 
that learning to choose the right brad and applying it correctly was not 
nothing.
There is still nothing wrong with them even though they are out of 
fashion now.
Battery drills/screws or air brads have taken over and hardly anyone 
even remembers brads.

   Last year there was a yard sale a couple doors down. After the sale 
was over where was a badly warped desk and a plain bookshelf left over. 
They were set out to be taken to the dump.
  The desk had a 2 ton early particleboard top, ugh, that was waste. But 
the carcass was made from hardwood with 3 drawers. I threw the top away 
and made the case into a side table, mostly just for storage.
I needed to stash some of the nicest chisels ever made that I had 
gathered in a fortuitous circumstance.

   But the bookshelf, completely innocent pine planks nailed together 
(brads). I thought maybe I would disassemble and use the planks. Hate to 
see good wood going to the landfill.
But the shelf was still strong.
  Looking it over carefully when I got it home, I realized I had made 
it, probably 40 years ago.
A shelf for a utility room or garage or something I had put up for a 
neighbor most likely. I don't remember. But the style was undeniable.
   And the reason it had held together all this time, was that the brads 
were chosen for the job and applied correctly.
   My granddaughter had just moved and needed a shelf, so guess where 
that one went. lol

   As far as crown molding, I put up this display shelf around maybe 
25-30 years ago. The crown is bradded on. No opening of the miters in 
all this time, not even a little.
  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/bottles/livingshelf.
jpg

We do have a tendency to overthink sometimes, hahaaha
  yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
271917 "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 06:32 , scott grandstaff  wrote:
> 
> Battery drills/screws or air brads have taken over and hardly anyone even
remembers brads.

I have an air brad thing, but it only gets used for house
projects (like all the baseboards I replaced this summer).

Dumb question: are brads basically just smaller finish nails?
I used some too-small brads for the moulding on a prior bookcase,
and it sort of fell off. Finish nails from the Borg seem too big.

So far, I really appreciate the input from you, John, and Richard,
as you've suggested some things I hadn't really thought of. As the
moulding is taller than the case top, I could take advantage of
that by fixing blocks to the back of the moulding, and nail those
to the case top.

Photos here of the case as it stands, and the moulding in
question. It's not as pretty as Scott's, that's for sure!

https://maxw
ells.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Poplar-bookcase/

I threw in some gratuitous photos of milling the back and also my
Atkins stair saw (appears to be set up for push stroke, and filed
crosscut; it looked almost NOS when I got it).

There's also a photo of my mitre jack, which broke while trimming
the first cut :/. Good thing I had the glue pot warmed up.

Adam, late for work again in Benton City, WA
271918 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
I am surprised the traditional method has yet to appear.....

ITOD, the moulding was applied using a sliding dovetail.  Male mounted 
to the cabinet, female routed on the molding.

Sometimes the DT section applied in a single continuous strip, but more 
commonly in short sections...  You would glue/screw/nail the male piece 
to the cabinet, keeping the alignment.  With short sections of DT, you 
just nail or glue them on.

Then the actual molding is applied to this DT strip.  The molding is 
applied to the sides by gluing/nailing the first couple of inches along 
the front, then allowed to be free moving along the back.... 
expansion/contraction being the issue. The movement becomes an issue 
only along the back, away from the observer, so it "disappears".....

Since the front piece does not have an issue with cross grained 
movement, you can glue/nail this section along its length, or spotty gluing.

With your very wide/thick molding, it is an option....... and it hides 
the carcase DT well.

But it is LOT of work.  Especially doing it all with hand tools.


Note on the male DT strip: It is usually made from the end of a board, 
meaning the grain along the DT is not aligned with the length, but 
perpendicular to it.... think short grain along the length.

This way, if the carcase wants to tug at the DT, the DT breaks off, and 
the cabinet side is not constrained.



>> GGs,
>>
>> (snip)
>> I now find myself having made a crown moulding for it to hide the dovetails.
>> The moulding is 2-1/4" wide (it's from p. 192 of Bickford's book, taken
>> from a Rhode Island chest). I'm planning to join the corners of the moulding
>> with miters, but I'm worrying about expansion and contraction. What's the
>> best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the front and sides?
>> Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like a bad idea,
>> regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my mitered
>> corners.
>>
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*Frank Filippone*

*BMWRed735i@G...*
271919 Scott Garrison <scottbgarrison@g...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
Adam says -

> What's the best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the
front and sides? Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like
a bad idea, regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my
mitered corners.

> On a related note, should I nail the miters together, or use glue and a
spline? I'd like to know what is best practice, but also what is
historically correct. My inclination is hide glue and a spline (maybe
floating tenon is more correct).

I too do what John says - "tackle this issue by gluing the front strip to
the carcass (long grain to long grain so movement in its length is not an
issue)" but where he then glues the front 3-4 inches, letting the back
float, I sometimes do that or I nail with brads, or in the case of a
blanket box, I made a sliding dovetail. Unless using the sliding dovetail
at the back, definitely add the necessary number of brads to hold it tight.
For brads, I use Tremont nails, don't have the size in my noggin at the
moment but could go look. For "traditional-type" furniture as opposed to
outdoors or shop thingamajigs I always use hide glue, either make my own
from the can or Old Brown Glue.  Here is the handplaned moulding for the
cherry bookcase that I built for my daughter a few years ago.

https://photos.google.com/share
/AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5iK0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF
1QipN90r2ZCqJJ5Ut4_9nFKbJXc9h_7PXpnv6Zzl3D?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZ
EVScEx3

I did hide glue the miters themselves, more so as a caulking that when I
sand I get any minor discrepancies to fill in. I built up a structure above
the carcass to which I glued long grain to long grain and nailed with brads
otherwise. You can see that in this pic. Sorry I was unable to pull the
case from the wall for a clearer shot.

https://photos.google.com/share
/AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5iK0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF
1QipO07d4cS6brWSekHvrm6IVYfz9uNWRldlWLviBy?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZ
EVScEx3

But this is 3? years old now and I have had no issue with movement that
wasn't expected and compensated for. One thing I did learn, is that hide
glue is not completely invisible to finishes as you can see some blemishes.

PS - As I was writing this Frank also addressed the sliding dovetail,
here's a random pic from the internet
http://www.steveweb
.net/breadboard_preassembly.jpg


Scott Garrison
Duluth GA

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:41 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
271926 Patrick Olguin <paddychulo@g...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
GGs,
Regarding sliding dovetails, I have a confession. I have cheated. No, not
using a tailed demon. As Frank described, cutting and applying small,
short-grain male dovetails is accepted practice, but cutting two beveled
strips and gluing them long-grain to long-grain to the backside of your
moulding, where it's never seen, is a dirty little secret. I got the idea
from hanging cabinets with French cleats I'd made myself, way back when I
was installing kitchens as a part-time gig. Well, what is a French cleat,
but half a sliding dovetail? Getting the proper alignment on the "cheater"
female dovetail is simple enough. I just use the short-grain male pieces as
spacers for lining up the cleats. Put a little wax on the males before
gluing the cleats in place or they might get stuck. Don't ask me how I know
this. The side pieces of moulding are thinner than the front, because
instead of excavating a dovetail, you're gluing on two cleats. It's not
that pretty, but no one will see it. I start with the moulding/dovetail
assembly slightly thick, and then plane it down so that I get a really snug
fit, and check that the miters (mitres, Richard) are tight. This is way
simpler than cutting a sliding dovetail. Yes, I realize it's kind of a
Galoot rite of passage. Glue/brad-nail as normal.

Best,
Paddy - who's better at planing than chiseling


On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:41 AM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
271931 Chuck Taylor 2020‑10‑14 Re: Adam's shop [Was "crown molding application to bookcase"]
Gentle Galoots,

Pardon me for hijacking this thread to talk about some other goodies in Adam's
shop photos.

Adam, you wrote:

> Photos here of the case as it stands, and the moulding in
>question. ...

 https://max
wells.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Poplar-bookcase/

> I threw in some gratuitous photos of milling the back...

Thanks for doing that! I love that frame saw! Where did the blade come from? How
do you get it started accurately with teeth that size? Judging from the looks of
your cabinet back, it appears to work a treat!

I see that you have installed a planing stop with steel teeth on/in your bench
top. Like Chris Schwarz has been touting lately. How is it working for you? Any
problems with the teeth marking the ends of the stock?

Nice-looking pole lathe!

I like the way you have mounted a twin-screw vise at what looks like the left
end of your bench with fixed screws and movable nuts. I've seen it done that way
in some of the old historical illustrations that Chris has made available, but
nowhere else.

I put a leg vise in the front vise position of my bench because with a 5" thick
bench top, having the screw[s] of a conventional front vise or twin screw vise
run under the 5"-thick bench top would lead to too much vertical racking to suit
me. Putting an end vise with fixed screws like yours on the left end would solve
that problem. But the leg vise is staying! I've been intending to build a
"Moxon" vise but have been put off by the prospect of mounting/dismounting it as
needed and finding a place to store it. Mounting a twin-screw vise like yours
would eliminate my need for a separate Moxon vise.

Those wooden screws look they were made using one of those 1-1/2" Taiwanese
threading kits sold by Woodcraft and others. Is that right?

Thanks for sharing.

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
271933 Patrick Olguin <paddychulo@g...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: crown molding application to bookcase
Hey Frank,
YES! The important step is that the short grain male DTs, that will be
installed as usual on the sides of the carcasse, are used as a reference to
perfectly size the female cheater 45deg long grain strips. When the cheater
45 strips are dry, I slide the male DTs-as-spacers out, and install them on
the carcasse. Then slide the female "dovetail" over the male parts. If the
male DTs mushroom a little during their installation, that's kind of a
bonus, as it works sort of like a draw-bored M&T, and really sucks the lady
DT onto the carcasse.
Paddy the lazy engineer

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 11:06 AM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
271934 "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> 2020‑10‑15 Re: Adam's shop [Was "crown molding application to bookcase"]
Hi, Chuck,

Nice to hear from you again!

> On Oct 14, 2020, at 10:39 , Chuck Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Gentle Galoots,
> 
> Pardon me for hijacking this thread to talk about some other goodies in Adam's
shop photos.

Tool photos are bait for that sort of thing around here :).

> Adam, you wrote:
> 
>> Photos here of the case as it stands, and the moulding in
>> question. ...
> 
> >  https:/
/maxwells.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Poplar-bookcase/
> 
>> I threw in some gratuitous photos of milling the back...
> 
> Thanks for doing that! I love that frame saw! Where did the blade come from?
How do you get it started accurately with teeth that size? Judging from the
looks of your cabinet back, it appears to work a treat!

The blade started out as 1095 shim stock from McMaster, and I cut
the teeth by hand, using a taper to mark the notches and a three-square
bastard files to remove the bulk of the metal. I vaguely recall
using a hacksaw on some of them, but that may have just been to
define the rake angle with a kerf.

To start the frame saw, I use an Atkins or Disston 4-1/2 pt rip saw
to get a kerf along the end, then go to town. I have in my notes
that it took 1/2 hr to resaw a 11-1/2” x 39” board; I wasn't going
too fast, since I was actually wearing a respirator in the shop due
to all the smoke from OR and CA fires that week. All of these met
up really well, at least by my standards, sawing from both ends.

I wanted to resaw the 6 ft long boards for the back as one, but
reckon I would've had to build a pit for that, or buy a b@n...
Joining the back boards at a shelf looks fine, though, and this will
all be painted, so ignore the incorrect bookmatching.

> I see that you have installed a planing stop with steel teeth on/in your bench
top. Like Chris Schwarz has been touting lately. How is it working for you? Any
problems with the teeth marking the ends of the stock?

I made that years ago out of a piece of hot-rolled rod stock. It's
fantastic, although it's unforgiving if you hit it with a plane or
chisel. It marks the ends of stock, but end grain is supposed to
be covered up, right?

> I like the way you have mounted a twin-screw vise at what looks like the left
end of your bench with fixed screws and movable nuts. I've seen it done that way
in some of the old historical illustrations that Chris has made available, but
nowhere else.

That is only used for resawing, and I just have the nuts on there
as fixed stops. Someday I might add handles to the screws. They were
made as the final gasp of a crappy Taiwanese screw box before the
cutter self-destructed, along with the brass bolt that held it.

I made a Moxon-type vise first, and the screw for my miter jack, so
got some usage out of the threader before it died. I probably get
more use from the miter jack than the vise, to be honest. Crochet,
planing stop, battens, and holdfasts are my thing.

Adam
Benton City, WA

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