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271907 "kevin.m.foley" <kevin.m.foley@c...> 2020‑10‑12 It's not finished until it's finished
Dear Galoots,

Short story:  I've replaced parts and added some bracing (stretchers) to this
old table.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/188990335@N.../albums/7215771637
8029937/with/50460373107/

I need some advice on how to best match the color.  The original seems to be
garnet shellac. I don't have much experience with it.  Any advise would be
appreciated.  I would think building thin coats to a final depth of color might
work, or just adjust the cut using scraps to test the color and go for it in one
coat?  Stripping the old finish has been vetoed.

Longer story:  This has been in my wife's family for years and has suffered many
moves.  It is essentially 16 inches sawn from a very sturdy table with some
timidly tarted up wobbly planks M&T'ed to the remains of the apron for rear
legs.  Long, unsupported, often broken, often repaired.  Last repair seems to
have been some yellow expanding goo.  The only good thing I can say about it is
it seems to fill gaps.  The apron is fine-grained, plain-sawn white oak, and I
was able to find some locally. The remaining leg is QSWO but I didn't go that
route. I'm investing one plank in this project.  The replacement parts should
take finish similarly to the original.  I reproduced the blown-out rear leg in
all it's sketchiness but added stretchers to keep blow-outs from happening so
frequently.  It's received yet another bodge to keep it out of the skip.  Too
much character to pitch.

Any guidance on matching up the color would be appreciated.

Thanks

Kevin in Chantilly, which is suddenly blanketed in pine needles.
271910 Patrick Olguin <paddychulo@g...> 2020‑10‑12 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Hi Kevin,
Nice job saving that olde table. Matching finishes is a tricky business,
wot. You definitely want to do the whole finishing schedule on a scrap of
the same wood, the bigger the better. Changing color with shellac is
different from staining/dying wood, as shellac, given how thin the film is,
is more transparent. The good news is that you have a lot of control over
how much you tone the wood. The not as good news is that it can take a lot
of coats (a thick coat of shellac is almost never a good idea). Another
unexpected (to the boneheaded like me) feature is that you are *adding*
color to the wood, instead of changing/covering it up like you do with a
semi-transparent penetrating or dye stain  -  paint, really, and shellac is
more like looking at the wood through colored glass.

From the looks of the table, you're going to want to orange-it-up with
orange shellac (dewaxed, ideally, as it's less opaque), before you use
garnet to darken it, because garnet will bring out the yellow in the wood,
making the whole thing a rather unsatisfying green. Don't ask me how I know
this.

The toning goes pretty quickly, even with the thin coats, cos shellac dries
so quickly. Another hot tip when you're getting close to matching is to put
a bit of new shellac on the old piece. Three coats (THIN) for the new
piece, one for the old. You can keep wiping thin coats (I cut it to
#1.5lb)  until your pad/rag starts to stick, then it's time to let it
really dry (30-40 minutes-ish), then you're back to toning.  Keep track of
how many coats. So, orange shellac to redden/orange-it-up, then garnet for
serious darkening.  You can also experiment with aniline dyes, but I
usually reserve that for projects where I'm making something all-new and
want a color that doesn't appear in nature.

Good luck,
Paddy

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM kevin.m.foley 
wrote:
271911 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑10‑12 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Kevin has resued an interesting old table from the slow death of polyurethane
glue….

I would start with some stain.  

given the difference in colour, you could use some georgian mid oak colour
(color,Paddy) to get to a sensible background.  In the UK, I like the colron
range, which may no longer be made, as it’s good and smelly, so probably bad for
you.  You’ll need to use a brush, to get it into the edges without marking the
existing parts.
That particular stain gets to the colour, and won’t go darker with more
applications, it’s mixeable with others in its range, so you can do your own
colour match.  There will be similar ones in the USA.  Don’t use a spirit based
stain.

Right, you’ve stained the bare wood.  I’d give a coat of 1lb blonde shellac to
seal it. depending on how close thw colour is, my usual recourse is to Van Dyke
stain next. It’s water based, so you can wash it off and ty again, and again,
or, you can apply some more.  If you water it down, it’s lighter.  If you
recoat, it gets darker, until it won’t go any further.  You can seal it with a
shellac coat to ‘freeze’ at any stage. maybe whilst you dabble on the last coat,
which you may want to remove a bit of to give some patina.
Having mentioned patina, you might want to provide a bit of light wear and
damage - a couple of scratches that a thin Van Dyke colour back to look a
hundred years old.  Be subtle with that sort of thing, and think about how such
a thing could occur.

The final finish would be a couple of full strength blonde shellac coats.

You may be right about the garnett.   If you use it, still begin with a stain -
if you chip shellac, it will expose white wood, and you’ll need to repair it.
If you chip a shellc over stain, it goes back to the stain.


Of course, all the above is worth what you paid for it, but theres maybe
something that would help.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
271912 "Eric Coyle" <ecoyle@t...> 2020‑10‑12 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
You may have to darken the shellac to mimic the patina, and my suggestion is
to smash up an old 78  (of which most were made from black shellac) ,
dissolve what you can in alcohol (?methyl hydrate), filter and then do some
experimentation on scrap wood to see if you can get a similar  and close
tone to the wood. It may take a few coats to replicate the patina.

 

Good luck

 

Eric
271914 Tim <tpendleton@g...> 2020‑10‑13 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Thank you for posting about 78 records being a source of black shellac.
That could come in handy.

Tim
271923 "kevin.m.foley" <kevin.m.foley@c...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Many thanks for all the replies.  It’s definitely not going to be easy as I’d
hoped but looking at it I guess I knew that the color was trending more yellow
than would be expected from garnet shellac.  It will take some experimentation
and I now have many things to try.

Richard mentioned "...patina, you might want to provide a bit of light wear and
damage”.  That’s funny because on the other side of the table someone has gone
berzerk doing just that.  It’s entirely cross-hatched in black.  It might be
covering up graffiti,  I don’t know yet.  Getting rid of that will come before
finishing the rest.  This table has suffered many fools.  I’m next in line.

… and 78 records as a source of black shellac,  that’s pretty cool.

Cheers,

Kevin
271927 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Just a reminder that shoe dye (leather dye) is alcohol based, just as
shellac is.  That means you can use the bazillion colors of shoe dye made
for the leather industry to match what you need.  If you lay down thin
layers of colored shellac, you can darken to get the right shade.

If you make a nasty mistake with the color, you can easily wipe most of the
color away by wiping with a damp alcohol cloth, so it’s somewhat
reversible.  I use Fiebing’s dye.  About one to two drops of dye per shot
glass of shellac is where to start.
Cheers
Claudio
271928 Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
I was going to recommend analine dyes, but shoe polish is a good place to start.
Just make sure you seal the grain before you start fiddling with the color!

The other issue is that the color will naturally change as it ages. You might
want to consider chemically oxidizing the wood before you seal it, and here
there are options that range from the fairly benign (e.g. vinegar & steel wool)
to the really nasty stuff (nitric acid, potassium dichromate). I haven't fiddled
with oak at all, strangely enough, but Mr. Google will get you started in that
direction. just bear in mind that different chemicals will give different
results, sometimes subtly so.

I've become a fan of watching refinishing videos in these strange times, mostly
because it's nearly literally the same as watching paint dry. Or maybe a Bob
Ross "How to Paint" TV episode. Do a Youtube search on "Thomas Johnson
refinishing" and "Lost Mountain Restorations" for 2 pretty different
personalities. If you're interested in learning the English approach to
finishing (aka "polishing"), search for "English Polisher" and "Gilboy's".
Another contrast in personalities.

Random thoughts,
-T

________________________________
From: OldTools  on behalf of Claudio DeLorenzi

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 5:11 AM
To: kevin.m.foley 
Cc: Oldtools list 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] It's not finished until it's finished

Just a reminder that shoe dye (leather dye) is alcohol based, just as
shellac is.  That means you can use the bazillion colors of shoe dye made
for the leather industry to match what you need.  If you lay down thin
layers of colored shellac, you can darken to get the right shade.

If you make a nasty mistake with the color, you can easily wipe most of the
color away by wiping with a damp alcohol cloth, so it’s somewhat
reversible.  I use Fiebing’s dye.  About one to two drops of dye per shot
glass of shellac is where to start.
Cheers
Claudio

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 8:59 PM kevin.m.foley  wrote:

> Many thanks for all the replies.  It’s definitely not going to be easy as
> I’d hoped but looking at it I guess I knew that the color was trending more
> yellow than would be expected from garnet shellac.  It will take some
> experimentation and I now have many things to try.
>
> Richard mentioned "...patina, you might want to provide a bit of light
> wear and damage”.  That’s funny because on the other side of the table
> someone has gone berzerk doing just that.  It’s entirely cross-hatched in
> black.  It might be covering up graffiti,  I don’t know yet.  Getting rid
> of that will come before finishing the rest.  This table has suffered many
> fools.  I’m next in line.
>
> … and 78 records as a source of black shellac,  that’s pretty cool.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> > On Oct 12, 2020, at 6:05 PM, yorkshireman@y... wrote:
> >
> > Kevin has resued an interesting old table from the slow death of
> polyurethane glue….
> >
> > I would start with some stain.
> >
> > given the difference in colour, you could use some georgian mid oak
> colour (color,Paddy) to get to a sensible background.  In the UK, I like
> the colron range, which may no longer be made, as it’s good and smelly, so
> probably bad for you.  You’ll need to use a brush, to get it into the edges
> without marking the existing parts.
> > That particular stain gets to the colour, and won’t go darker with more
> applications, it’s mixeable with others in its range, so you can do your
> own colour match.  There will be similar ones in the USA.  Don’t use a
> spirit based stain.
> >
> > Right, you’ve stained the bare wood.  I’d give a coat of 1lb blonde
> shellac to seal it. depending on how close thw colour is, my usual recourse
> is to Van Dyke stain next. It’s water based, so you can wash it off and ty
> again, and again, or, you can apply some more.  If you water it down, it’s
> lighter.  If you recoat, it gets darker, until it won’t go any further.
> You can seal it with a shellac coat to ‘freeze’ at any stage. maybe whilst
> you dabble on the last coat, which you may want to remove a bit of to give
> some patina.
> > Having mentioned patina, you might want to provide a bit of light wear
> and damage - a couple of scratches that a thin Van Dyke colour back to look
> a hundred years old.  Be subtle with that sort of thing, and think about
> how such a thing could occur.
> >
> > The final finish would be a couple of full strength blonde shellac coats.
> >
> > You may be right about the garnett.   If you use it, still begin with a
> stain - if you chip shellac, it will expose white wood, and you’ll need to
> repair it.  If you chip a shellc over stain, it goes back to the stain.
> >
> >
> > Of course, all the above is worth what you paid for it, but theres maybe
> something that would help.
> >
> >
> > Richard Wilson
> > Yorkshireman Galoot
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 12 Oct 2020, at 18:18, kevin.m.foley  wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Galoots,
> >>
> >> Short story:  I've replaced parts and added some bracing (stretchers)
> to this old table.
> >>
> >>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/188990335@N.../albums/72157716
378029937/with/50460373107/
> >>
> >> I need some advice on how to best match the color.  The original seems
> to be garnet shellac. I don't have much experience with it.  Any advise
> would be appreciated.  I would think building thin coats to a final depth
> of color might work, or just adjust the cut using scraps to test the color
> and go for it in one coat?  Stripping the old finish has been vetoed.
> >> (snippage)
> >
>
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271929 Tim <tpendleton@g...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, Claudio DeLorenzi 
wrote:
 About one to two drops of dye per shot
>
> glass of shellac is where to start.
> Cheers
> Claudio


A shot glass of shellac is definitely two-fingers of the good stuff!

Tim
271930 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
Tom mentions ’shoe polish’  though in the UK at least that would refer to the
coloured wax stuff.  Don’t use that (though it has its place on the shelf - I’ve
just used some on a figurine)  What you want is ‘leather dye’ - which is just
stain as we all know nd love, but tasked for leather.  Soaks in and stays in,
unlike polish, which is a thin layer on the surface to make leather shiny.  Has
some stain in it to get into cracks and cover scuffs, but not quite the same.
Good source for stains though.


Richard Wilson
Waxing in Northumberland.

(see what I did there? )
271932 Kirk Eppler 2020‑10‑14 Re: It's not finished until it's finished
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned, though I've deleted most of this
conversation already, is that if it matches today, it may not match in 10
years.  The existing finish has oxidized, sun faded, and whatever list of
natural degradation factors someone chooses to list.

The new finish won't have been through any of that, and so will start
degrading from wherever you leave it, and they will drift apart again.

Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA, fighting with a different keyboard, and
flaky shift lock function.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 10:24 AM yorkshireman@y... <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:

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