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271217 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑12 How to file a BackSaw?
I have a 50-60's Diston backsaw I must sharpen to use.  Is it filed rip 
or crosscut?

On this particular saw, it looks like....both..... depending on where I 
look......

It is pretty dull, and needs a full cleaning as well.... Lots of work to 
get a really nice saw back in shape.....

But how do I file it?

-- 
Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
271218 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2020‑06‑12 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
File it as you intend to use it!
 Best, Spike


Sent from my refuge
271219 gtgrouch@r... 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
If you're using it as a miter saw, then file crosscut.

	If you're using it as a dovetail saw, then file rip. 

	In both cases, I use fairly fine teeth.

	YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Frank Filippone" 
To: "Old Tools"
Cc: 
Sent: Friday June 12 2020 7:09:43PM
Subject: [OldTools] How to file a BackSaw?

I have a 50-60's Diston backsaw I must sharpen to use. Is it filed rip

 or crosscut?

 On this particular saw, it looks like....both..... depending on where
I 
 look......

 It is pretty dull, and needs a full cleaning as well.... Lots of work
to 
 get a really nice saw back in shape....

 But how do I file it?

 -- 
 Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
 aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage,
 value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
 traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

 To change your subscription options:

 OldTools archive:
271220 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 at 11:09, Frank Filippone  wrote:
>
> I have a 50-60's Diston backsaw I must sharpen to use.  Is it filed rip
> or crosscut?
>
> On this particular saw, it looks like....both..... depending on where I
> look......
>
> It is pretty dull, and needs a full cleaning as well.... Lots of work to
> get a really nice saw back in shape.....
>
> But how do I file it?

Hi Frank,

Use a magnifier glass if you cannot see with your bare eyes.
Rip cut teeth should show a line, cross-cut should shaw a triangular knife.

Paul Seller has a few interesting video about saw sharpening (and saw
teeth): https
://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc3EpWncNq5QL0QhwUNQb7w

Blackburn tools have very good online materials, check out:
h
ttp://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html
http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/practical-cross-cut-saw-angles
/index.html

On one of his videos Paul Seller claims that there is not much
difference b/w cross-cut and rip cut for fine saw (i guess above 14
TPI).

Filling for rip cuts is easier, so unless you intend to use your saw
with a mitre box and your saw has fine teeth, I would say that a rip
cut filling is your best bet.

Backsaws need a perfectly flat tooth line, i use a level (fro
flatness), and i check for flatness with a feeler gauge. I usually try
to reach b/w +- 0.2mm to +- 0.1 mm.

Chris
271222 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
I never thought to use this saw as a rip saw. Maybe I did not explain the
saw is about 18 inches long. Teeth (not yet measured, but I would guess
around 14 or so) are really dull. It will be used as a crosscut saw in a
miter box.
I guess, if the saw has both xcut and rip teeth, I get to choose. Since I
will use it for xcut, it will need xcut teeth.
Never filed xcut. New skill to learn.  (Fleam?).
Thanks gang. I knew this was the place to get a response.
Thanks for the reading and tutorial references. I will review them all.
Frank

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Christian Gagneraud 
wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 at 11:09, Frank Filippone 
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 50-60's Diston backsaw I must sharpen to use.  Is it filed rip
> > or crosscut?
> >
> > On this particular saw, it looks like....both..... depending on where I
> > look......
> >
> > It is pretty dull, and needs a full cleaning as well.... Lots of work to
> > get a really nice saw back in shape.....
> >
> > But how do I file it?
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> Use a magnifier glass if you cannot see with your bare eyes.
> Rip cut teeth should show a line, cross-cut should shaw a triangular knife.
>
> Paul Seller has a few interesting video about saw sharpening (and saw
> > teeth): h
ttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc3EpWncNq5QL0QhwUNQb7w
>
> Blackburn tools have very good online materials, check out:
> > http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html
>
> http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/practical-cross-cut-
saw-angles/index.html
>
> On one of his videos Paul Seller claims that there is not much
> difference b/w cross-cut and rip cut for fine saw (i guess above 14
> TPI).
>
> Filling for rip cuts is easier, so unless you intend to use your saw
> with a mitre box and your saw has fine teeth, I would say that a rip
> cut filling is your best bet.
>
> Backsaws need a perfectly flat tooth line, i use a level (fro
> flatness), and i check for flatness with a feeler gauge. I usually try
> to reach b/w +- 0.2mm to +- 0.1 mm.
>
> Chris
>
> >
> > --
> > Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > > https
://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > > https://swingleydev.com
/archive/faq.html
> >
> > > OldTools archive: https://swingleyde
v.com/ot/
> >
> > OldTools@s...
>
-- 
Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...
271223 stephen rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
In addition to some YouTube videos (Paul Sellers and others), I found this very
helpful
http://www.vintagesaws
.com/library/library.html

Backsaws, because of their small teeth, are more difficult to file than larger
handsaws.

Sent from my iPhone
271224 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
I once got a Groves and sons backsaw with a broken blade. Mike Wenzloff put a
new blade on it and decided to file it as it had been, which turned out to be
half the teeth
  rip and half crosscut, so he compromised and filed it between rip and
crosscut, and it works fine for whatever I throw at it!
 Best, Spike
271225 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
Brent Beach posted a lot of information on saw-filing on his site, and 
designed a jig which you can make to help you file saws. His method has 
worked for me.

http://www3.telus.n
et/BrentBeach/sawjig/index.html

FWIW
Don

On 2020-06-12 6:52 p.m., Frank Filippone wrote:
> I never thought to use this saw as a rip saw. Maybe I did not explain the
> saw is about 18 inches long. Teeth (not yet measured, but I would guess
> around 14 or so) are really dull. It will be used as a crosscut saw in a
> miter box.
> I guess, if the saw has both xcut and rip teeth, I get to choose. Since I
> will use it for xcut, it will need xcut teeth.
> Never filed xcut. New skill to learn.  (Fleam?).
> Thanks gang. I knew this was the place to get a response.
> Thanks for the reading and tutorial references. I will review them all.
> Frank
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 5:28 PM Christian Gagneraud 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 at 11:09, Frank Filippone 
>> wrote:
>>> I have a 50-60's Diston backsaw I must sharpen to use.  Is it filed rip
>>> or crosscut?
>>>
>>> On this particular saw, it looks like....both..... depending on where I
>>> look......
>>>
>>> It is pretty dull, and needs a full cleaning as well.... Lots of work to
>>> get a really nice saw back in shape.....
>>>
>>> But how do I file it?
>> Hi Frank,
>>
>> Use a magnifier glass if you cannot see with your bare eyes.
>> Rip cut teeth should show a line, cross-cut should shaw a triangular knife.
>>
>> Paul Seller has a few interesting video about saw sharpening (and saw
>> >> teeth): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc3EpWncNq5QL0QhwUNQb7w
>>
>> Blackburn tools have very good online materials, check out:
>> >> http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html
>>
>> http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/practical-cross-cut-
saw-angles/index.html
>>
>> On one of his videos Paul Seller claims that there is not much
>> difference b/w cross-cut and rip cut for fine saw (i guess above 14
>> TPI).
>>
>> Filling for rip cuts is easier, so unless you intend to use your saw
>> with a mitre box and your saw has fine teeth, I would say that a rip
>> cut filling is your best bet.
>>
>> Backsaws need a perfectly flat tooth line, i use a level (fro
>> flatness), and i check for flatness with a feeler gauge. I usually try
>> to reach b/w +- 0.2mm to +- 0.1 mm.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>> --
>>> Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>>
>>> To change your subscription options:
>>> >>> htt
ps://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>>
>>> To read the FAQ:
>>> >>> https://swingleydev.c
om/archive/faq.html
>>>
>>> >>> OldTools archive: https://swingley
dev.com/ot/
>>>
>>> OldTools@s...


-- 
"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271228 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
Other than the obvious,    more teeth = more work,  Could you elaborate?

Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
271229 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
Is this because the usual result it to saw straight down, and therefore 
leave the least possible mark on the bottom wood of the miter box?

Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
271230 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
Frank asks...

> On 13 Jun 2020, at 14:10, Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> Is this because the usual result it to saw straight down, and therefore leave
the least possible mark on the bottom wood of the miter box?
> 
> Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
>> Backsaws need a perfectly flat tooth line, i use a level (fro
>> flatness), and i check for flatness with a feeler gauge. I usually try
>> to reach b/w +- 0.2mm to +- 0.1 mm.
>> 
>> Chris  


Well, yes, but more importantly, when you cut a joint - say even a tenon - and
are trying to intersect another saw cut, that cut will be straight, and you want
to meet it perfectly, with out overcutting at any point.


A feeler gauge seems a strange choice though.  Conventionally, you run a file
along the teeth lengthwise, and when the top of each tooth shows contact, it
will be flat.  Sharpen to ‘just’ remove the glint of reflected light.



Richard
271231 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
I had a group of 5 turn-of-the-last-century Disston backsaws - an 8”, 2 10”, a
12” and a 14” - that I sent to Tom Law perhaps 8-9 years ago for refurbishing
ang shrpening.  We talked about ppi, rip, cross cut, etc, and when I mentioned I
would like the 8” at 15 ppi rip for dovetail work, he said he couldn’t do more
than 13 ppi any more because of his vision.  It came back 15 ppi anyway.

So I think it is just a technical issue.  I have a 1970’s Tyzak 8” with 20 ppi.

Ed Minch
271232 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
On 2020-06-13 7:08 a.m., Frank Filippone wrote:
> Other than the obvious,    more teeth = more work,  Could you elaborate? 

Tiny teeth are hard to see, so you need good vision and some direct 
lighting, and even then it's a challenge keeping track of how far along 
you've got! Using Sharpies to mark alternate gullets before starting is 
a help. IME

Don

-- 
"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271233 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
On 2020-06-13 7:16 a.m., yorkshireman@y... wrote:
> A feeler gauge seems a strange choice though.  Conventionally, you run a file
along the teeth lengthwise, and when the top of each tooth shows contact, it
will be flat.  Sharpen to ‘just’ remove the glint of reflected light.

Remove 1/2 a glint filing heel to toe, then the other 1/2 on the return 
trip.

Don

-- 
"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut

“Worry less, concentrate more, and above all relax.” James Krenov

“It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but
thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.”
— Frederick Douglass
271235 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
A few corrections.. I took the saw apart.  Started to clean it, when I 
noted the brand name.  Not quite Disston, but rather... Craftsman.  Rust 
was pretty superficial.  A few swipes with (used) sandpaper got most of 
the job done.  Will take another run at it tomorrow..... finer, fresh 
sand paper....

The current filing is really not consistent..  some of the teeth are 
filed rip. some filed xcut.  The person that owned it was a cabinetmaker 
( old school) and even though it is hard to believe, I think he screwed 
this saw up by trying to sharpen it himself.

It has 12TPI, and it is 16 inches long.  Steel back.  Saw blade plate is 
fairly straight...

As I still want it for a crosscut miter box, there will be some work 
involved.... and learning.....

Next step will be jointing.  Just to be sure.  A few teeth are 
low....some REAL low.  Will do most of the jointing now, but save some 
for later, for fear of jointing too far.

Question:  Should I take the set out of the blade?  Now?  it is pretty 
small.

I do know to put set back in later....

Frank Filippone BMWRed735i@g...
271236 Kirk Eppler 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
I would not take the set out, unless some teeth are set on the wrong side.
I believe it helps me to keep track of where I am when filing.

16" is pretty short for most metal boxes, but ok for wooden ones.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, trying to get started on project work after a
slow start to the day.
271237 Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
One of the first saws I filed had a bad case of cows and calves.  I jointed
it to the point I was about to start losing teeth so quit and filed it. It
still wasn't right so I jointed it a second time and finished filing it.
It came out alright for a rookie.  I don't think you need to worry about
the set.  Filing will remove some of it and you'll want to bend the
teeth in the same direction they were first set or risk more breakage
bending them the other way.

Phil

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 1:51 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:
271238 Erik Levin 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
I am not a master, but have sharpened enough saws to know how to really screw
up. I did all of my regular users, most several times before they were right
(enough). Take the time to get the lighting, body position, and saw position
needed, and shift (you, the lighting, or the saw) as needed to maintain comfort.
I find, because I am old and have damaged my eyes too many times, that an
optivisor is the cats meow. A magnifier on a stick used to do it, but those days
are a decade back.

It isn't a great challenge to sharpen a saw, but it takes care. It is a LOT
easier for a crosscut if you leave the set, even if it means doing the job twice
to get what you want. Don't overjoint. You can do more if you need to after a
pass to tooth. The set helps locate the file, and the first time you drop into
the wrong gullet, you will feel it. Key is comfort and relax and if something
feels different, figure out why. I mark every other with a red marker on each
side I will approach the gullet from, as well.

Add to that Phil's note about tooth breakage when resetting the teeth (no one
told me. I learned the hard way) if you get one the wrong way, I really
recommend leaving the set. Depending on your skill setting teeth, you might want
to  touch up before jointing, do a first pass to get the teeth to all the proper
form, then recheck the jointing and set before final sharpening. That is also a
good time to check the tooth pitch uniformity.

Don't obsess about perfectly uniform tooth pitch. My opinion, which is mine, is
that there is a reason for variable tooth pitch saws, and a little variation can
reduce tendency to snag. But that is just my opinion.



*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
271239 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2020‑06‑13 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
GGs

I was halfway through writing a long saw sharpening rant when Erik wrote this;

> Don't obsess about perfectly uniform tooth pitch. My opinion, which is mine,
is that there is a reason for variable tooth pitch saws, and a little variation
can reduce tendency to snag. But that is just my opinion.

Bingo! Saws leave the factory with perfect set, pitch, fleam, tpi, etc, and
there’s a reason for that. They are sharpened on a machine.

Not a requirement in the real world. 

Hand sharpened tradesman's saws are just never that consistent. 

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia
271337 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2020‑06‑25 Re: How to file a BackSaw?
A lot of good information was given, and I thank you all for that.....

In preparation to start this first experiment in saw sharpening, I went 
to look on Paul Sellers site to see how to do it.....  I wanted to get 
all the angles right and pick up some tips.  Paul always has good 
information and shows how to in his videos....

Everything was fine, he started with a panel saw of 8TPI or so..... He 
was going to file this saw as a crosscut.....  But Paul did not use any 
fleam..... and set the angle of the file at 65 degrees or so....I was 
learning a lot....

Then he goes on to say.... for saws with more than 10TPI, it makes no 
difference if you file rip or crosscut......  My back saw is 12 TPI.....

I am not going to take Pauls' advice and sharpen it rip.. and use it 
crosscut.....I am going to file it crosscut but with no fleam. The only 
difference is that Paul uses 65 degrees of file angle and rip is 90 
degrees.  No big deal.

I have sharpened a few saws in rip pattern.  It is really not that hard 
to get the saw working pretty well.....  This saw is going to need a 
couple of passes to get it cutting correctly.... the teeth are really 
dull.  And I am going to joint it at least once.... maybe twice to be 
sure.....  it will be some work, but I think it will be worth it.... It 
will be used in a wood miter box, and I intend to use a chute board to 
make the ends smooth anyway.... so the tear out will be fixed anyway...

Will joint, file, joint, file and then set the teeth.  No matter what, 
it will cut better than it does now.....

Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...

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