OldTools Archive
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269955 | "Cal Meier" <calmeier@s...> | 2020‑02‑20 | Advice needed |
Hi, I generally lurk somewhere under the porch normally asking or commenting one on one to a true porch members. Today I need some advice. In central Louisiana southern yellow pine, solid wood doors, are much more common and much cheaper that Douglas Fir or Hemlock my parent’s and grandparents had access to. I am going to be applying a “finish” to from four to six doors (four panel solid pine). I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown. I planned to apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine. Then I started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear polyurethane on. What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac?? Locally, getting the garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy. Thanks much for any advice or just smiles at this question. I like to build but generally am scared when it comes to finishing. I do read Teri Masaschi books (especially revised edition) “Foolproof wood finishing for those who love to build and hate to finish—revised edition.” I guess I am not too hesitant in asking for advice considering the changes in what is available in the way of stains. Teri has had to revise her book in part because a couple of key venders she sent readers to went out of business. In my area stains other than Minwax generally have to be ordered in which can make for some somewhat expensive gambling when shipping is added in. Cal Meier Pineville, LA 71360 Raining steadily. |
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269956 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2020‑02‑20 | Re: Advice needed |
SNIP I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown. I planned to apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine. Then I started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear polyurethane on. What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac?? Locally, getting the garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy. END SNIP I have used quite a few gallons of shellac on furniture and construction. With some woods like pine, you must seal first of you WILL get a blotchy result. The easiest approach is to use ZInsser Seal Coat, which is a super blond dewaxed pre-mix designed for the purpose. You can go over that with your stains or your poly. Do not cut regular Zinsser Amber for use as a seal cost, as it has wax and may cause adherence problems for subsequent layers of non-shellac finish. It is not hard to mix amber or ruby shellac or any other color you want. Just order the flakes and get a high-quality solvent. Denatured Alcohol s the most usual, but for best results try to get a DNA that has very low water content. That can take some looking. Avoid paying up for the expensive branded solvents. They are quite good, but not good enough to make up for the cost. If you do use a darker shellac, you will get some shade of amber. You will not have enough film thickness to make the door look like the flakes. Also be aware that use of darker shellac straight over pine can cause blotching. To avoid that, use the same blond sealer that you would use for poly. If you use straight shellac outdoors with no varnish topcoat, over time you will get white water marks. I |
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269957 | "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2020‑02‑20 | Re: Advice needed |
SNIP I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown. I planned to apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine. Then I started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear polyurethane on. What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac?? Locally, getting the garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy. I use 1-pound cut amber shellac extensively in furniture I build. This does not darken the wood too much, even with multiple coats. John “There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.” ________________________________ From: OldTools |
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269958 | don schwartz <dks@t...> | 2020‑02‑20 | Re: Advice needed |
On 2020-02-20 8:36 a.m., Cal Meier wrote: > I generally lurk somewhere under the porch normally asking or commenting one on one to a true porch members. > Today I need some advice. In central Louisiana southern yellow pine, solid wood doors, are much more common and much cheaper that Douglas Fir or Hemlock my parent’s and grandparents had access to. I am going to be applying a “finish” to from four to six doors (four panel solid pine). I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown. I planned to apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine. Then I started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear polyurethane on. What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac?? Locally, getting the garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy. > > Thanks much for any advice or just smiles at this question. > > I like to build but generally am scared when it comes to finishing. I do read Teri Masaschi books (especially revised edition) “Foolproof wood finishing for those who love to build and hate to finish—revised edition.” I guess I am not too hesitant in asking for advice considering the changes in what is available in the way of stains. Teri has had to revise her book in part because a couple of key venders she sent readers to went out of business. In my area stains other than Minwax generally have to be ordered in which can make for some somewhat expensive gambling when shipping is added in. > > Cal Meier > Pineville, LA > 71360 > Raining steadily. Hi Cal I've used a variety of shellac flakes from super-blonde to 'button' in DNA / Mohawk solvent & most recently, Everclear. I prefer the Everclear because the fumes aren't toxic, and if there's some left over, I can find another use. ;-) There is a good selection of flake product available on-line from Tools for Working Wood, Highland Woodworking and Lee Valley. I currently favour Lee Valley because their prices are good, and they have an excellent return policy, but I've also purchased from TFWW, where the prices seem higher. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/finishing/finishes/ 76311-shellacs">https://www.leevalley.com/en- ca/shop/tools/supplies/finishing/finishes/76311-shellacs You can get a fair bit of colour in your sealing coat if you use one of the darker shellacs. Even the super-blonde has some colour to it. Highland offers 'platina' which they say is lighter than the super-blonde and more water-resistant, FWIW. To me the great thing about mixing up your own shellac is that when you've got the tint you want (amber, garnet etc ), you can do some testing on samples to determine the 'cut' to use. You can also tint the the shellac with alcohol-soluble stains. https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/LW-MCW.XX?searchterm=dye I have always used the Lockwood stain, never the Moser's products available at WoodWorkers Supply. These dyes are very powerful, so start with a highly dilute mix. A few grains of the powder, 1/8 teaspoon or less at a time. I use a tiny spoon which came in a bottle of Stevia sweetener. Testing is quick and easy because the solvent evaporates quickly. Once you've settled on the 'cut' and any toning dye you can still apply a gel stain if you wish, but you will have more toning options, and should be able to produce a finish with more clarity than if you relied completely on the gel for your colour. FWIW Don -- “If you feel the need to give something back perhaps it means you took too much in the first place." - Stefan Stern |
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269960 | Kirk Eppler | 2020‑02‑20 | Re: Advice needed |
Cal I did a mission finish that started with a coat of shellac then multiple layers of color on top of that. Was quite controllable. Gel stain was involved. Was much easier than a second project where I tried to build color with Amber shellac. I would top coat the exterior with a good poly. I got my guidance from Jeff Hewitt at Homestead Finishing. On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 7:46 AM Cal Meier |
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269961 | "Eric Coyle" <ecoyle@t...> | 2020‑02‑20 | Re: advice needed |
Years ago I requested a quote for some solid doors and was floored by the cost. In response to my question, the answer was that in some parts of the world, a south facing door protected by a storm door can reach an incredibly high temp with exterior moisture content, meanwhile the interior surface can be basking in air-conditioned comfort with lower humidity. That obviously is a recipe for warping and god lnows what else, so basically he explained warranty claims drove the cost up so high. Up here in GWN, the inverse can occur..outside temp -30C, zero humidty, while inside is comfoprtable 70F, with a humidifier running, or (as I;ve experienced, the clothes dryer veented inside which raised humidt to 80% That being said, most doors come with some kind of document that says All surfaces have to be finished or there's no warranty. Of all the painters I've encountered over the years a a finishing/cabinet guy, the vast majority are unaware of this requirement, or just blithely ignore it. Trust your mentor pointed this requirement out. Regards Eric |
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269962 | don schwartz <dks@t...> | 2020‑02‑21 | Re: advice needed |
On 2020-02-20 3:21 p.m., Eric Coyle wrote: > Years ago I requested a quote for some solid doors and was floored by the > cost. In response to my question, the answer was that in some parts of the > world, a south facing door protected by a storm door can reach an incredibly > high temp with exterior moisture content, meanwhile the interior surface can > be basking in air-conditioned comfort with lower humidity. That obviously is > a recipe for warping and god lnows what else, so basically he explained > warranty claims drove the cost up so high. > > > > Up here in GWN, the inverse can occur..outside temp -30C, zero humidty, > while inside is comfoprtable 70F, with a humidifier running, or (as I;ve > experienced, the clothes dryer veented inside which raised humidt to 80% > > > > That being said, most doors come with some kind of document that says All > surfaces have to be finished or there's no warranty. Of all the painters > I've encountered over the years a a finishing/cabinet guy, the vast majority > are unaware of this requirement, or just blithely ignore it. > > > > Trust your mentor pointed this requirement out. > > > > Regards > > Eric Lest there be any ambiguity, that means all edges - top & bottom included. Don -- “If you feel the need to give something back perhaps it means you took too much in the first place." - Stefan Stern |
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269963 | "Y At Y.i" <yorkshireman@y...> | 2020‑02‑21 | Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed |
Cal tries to tell us he just lurks here... > On 20 Feb 2020, at 15:46, Cal Meier |
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269964 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2020‑02‑21 | Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed |
Richard > I have found, over the years, that everything I need to colour (color, Paddy) benefits from beginning with the blondest, wax free shellac I have. Even so, this will alter the colour slightly, and is pretty permanent, in that as it is going on to bare wood, you can never get it truly out again. In building guitars, there are several steps where I lay down a couple of coats of shellac to protect the wood - not my idea, common knowledge. The shellac will protect it against dirt and minor nicks, keep spruce grain from lifting and tearing when you remove masking tape, and keep CA clue from getting into end grain and discoloring the wood 1/8” to 1/4” in from the edge. At each step I can completely remove the shellac by sanding a bit, and the final sanding gets the wood very very clean. I tend to be generous with the shellac and leave the shellac I put on until that final sanding Here is shellac on Redwood while I use CA glue to install the rosette (round decoration thingy at the soundhole, Paddy) https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/album-72157678301 955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/album-72157678301 955987/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/albu m-72157678301955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/albu m-72157678301955987/> And here it is sanded for a few seconds - I couldn’t wait to see what the final product looked like https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/album-72157678301 955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/album-72157678301 955987/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/albu m-72157678301955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/albu m-72157678301955987/> Here is a chart on the wall at Martin Guitar telling their techs how far to go with various woods - they have built 2-1/2 million guitars in 187 years and their finishes are flawless https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195 662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195 662357/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu m-72157713195662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu m-72157713195662357/> Most go to 220, some get 320 machine and some get 320 handsanding, mostly the harder surfaced woods Note at the top it says: "Do not sand with 320 on any body that receives a hand-rubbed stain" This is opposed to stain or toning that is applied in the sprayed finish. And I think that oversanding makes blotchiness more apparent. There are amateur guitar builders who sand there bodies to 1000 grit before finish Ed Minch |
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269965 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2020‑02‑21 | Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed |
‘ Mornin’ Ed I agree with all that you say. I never have any issue with shellac. I should have been more exact in my comment. “Before you start, you will have considered the chemistry of all the products you may be using, and you will be conscious that if you seal timber with shellac - lets say you need to control end grain absorption of colour - then cleaning it out will be almost impossible. But then - why would you need to? Shellac is happy with almost everything else you may want to put on top of it. I’ve never had to investigate the most modern ’stuff’ but if you were to want somehting like, I don’t know - a 2 part epoxy coating - it might want to be on the timber rather than have an intermediate layer. The get out of jail card is to say “test your intended process os an offcut’ that way, if what I say is complete rubbish, and responsible for you losing a thousand hours of work - it isn’t my fault! “ I do have some old product - as old as me or more, whose chemistry is a bit uncerain to me. Don’t mix with spirit (alcohol) or water, therefore I’m always wary. Stay with shellac ground to allow water based colour colour control, and go to top coats of shellac or oil varnish/shellac mixtures for the final finish. Never fails.. Richard Still in the Borders (bit of country separating Scotland from England, Paddy) |
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269967 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2020‑02‑21 | Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed |
SNIP Here is a chart on the wall at Martin Guitar telling their techs how far to go with various woods - they have built 2-1/2 million guitars in 187 years and their finishes are flawless https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195 662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195 662357/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu m-72157713195662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu m-72157713195662357/> Most go to 220, some get 320 machine and some get 320 handsanding, mostly the harder surfaced woods Note at the top it says: "Do not sand with 320 on any body that receives a hand-rubbed stain" END SNIP Ed: You raise an interesting and touchy issue. On this and on the FWW forum I frequented until a few years ago, people often exchange tips for getting very highly polished surfaces on wood prior to applying the finish. However, when sitting at the feet of Peter Gedrys, an acknowledged master finisher and gilder, I was repeatedly warned by him not to use high grits on wood unless there was some overriding reason. Such a reason might be that, ala James Krenov, one wanted to leave the wood unfinished, with a silky tool finish. For most purposes, Peter taught that 220 was the highest grit needed. Why? Because it smooths the wood, yet leaves enough tooth to form a mechanical bond with the finish. In fact, under normal circumstances, faced with wood polished or glazed by tools, Peter sands at 220 to break the glaze and improve adherence. Finer grits are used for wet sanding. There are two objectives with wet sanding: a smooth surface; and tooth to help the mechanical bond with the next coat. Another point Peter made was that once a finish has some build to it, one is no longer sanding the wood, so direction of grain is irrelevant. Of course, many amateur furniture makers like the work of planning and constructions and have no patience with finishing. Therefore, they tend towards oils that can be "ragged on." Some very nice looks can be attained that way, but there are limitations. I would guess though, that if one planned to simply wipe on oil, a polished wood face would not matter. Cheers! J |
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269969 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2020‑02‑22 | Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed |
Joe I agree with everything you said. Although - even with an oil finish I don’t go beyond 220 and have not had a problem. I finish guitars with heardening oils, natural or waterbased varnishes, and for a couple, shellac. I have no spray equipment wo everything is either brushed or padded, then I level and polish through the grits. Once you have a finish on, there is no grain direction and that makes it easier. Here is some wet-dry sanding on a nice piece of oak - I use up to 2000 grit sandpaper, then sanding screens up to about 8000 grit, then some car compound Here is a nitrocelluose lacquer finish I had a local car painter put on for me and I hand polished from his 1200 grit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/album-72157646344 222304/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/album-72157646344 222304/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/albu m-72157646344222304/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/albu m-72157646344222304/> And here is an experiment with wipe-on poly. I took the last coat up to about 2000 grit, then carefully wiped on a slightly thinned last coat. Othere than a coupl eof dust goobers, it looks quite good https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/album-72157688488 198220/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/album-72157688488 198220/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/albu m-72157688488198220/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/albu m-72157688488198220/> |
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