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265431 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑15 fettling a scraper plane
So I have had this scraper plane for quite some time now, a Stanley 
No112 (honking big scraper that looks like a plane Jeff). A round to-it 
suddenly appeared and I decided I should begin using the beast. So I 
honed a nice 45deg angle plus micro-bevels front and back on the Hock 
iron that came with it . And have given it a wee bit of a hook. The iron 
cuts beautifully hand-held. But even when set to a high angle, close to 
85deg from horizontal, the 112 is acting like a plane that's worn down 
in all the wrong places, either not cutting at all, or cutting too deep 
( shavings of 4-5 thou instead of the whisper-thin bits I get from a 
cabinet scraper).  And so it is, worn down a little more than 3 thou 
fore and aft of the mouth. So I guess I need to flatten it out some. 
Initially, I was thinking it wouldn't be as fussy a job as flattening a 
plane sole, but now I'm thinking that since I want whisper-thin 
shavings, I may have to spend some considerable effort to get it as flat 
as pee on a plate. I have some good Alox papers  glued to glass, so I'm 
equipped for the task, but given the size of the real estate, this will 
take a while...

So here's my specific question: how flat will I need it to be to give 
whisper-thin? Do I need perfection or can I do with less?

More generally, how is it that plane soles wear most where it most 
matters? Why is it concentrated around the mouth? I think I understand 
wear at the heel and toe, and maybe along the sole in front of the iron, 
but why right behind the iron, when the wood surface it passes over has 
already been reduced?


Don

-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265434 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
It’s physics.  When lapping, you have to flip the top and bottom every
cycle, because the top wears concave, and the bottom wears convex.  In
fact, any wear surfaces, like machine ways do the same.  Gravity is pulling
down on the top part as it slides and  overhangs the bottom part, wearing
the edge of the bottom anything, and the center of the top anything (eg a
topslide. )   It’s how you get the concave surfaces you want when making a
telescope mirror, by keeping the lap under and the glass on top.  So
anything that gets pushed over the edges will eventually get a concave
bottom.  Plus, this is a common fault in wood planing, creating a banana
instead of a flat plane.
Cheers
Claudio
265437 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
I think you answered your own question.

When using a card scraper there is no sole at all, or you could think about it
as a highly disfigured sole that doesn’t even touch the wood.

Your whispy thin shavings can come with the sole just as it already is. Your
iron might not as sharp as you think.

You can remove it from the plane and test it like a card scraper. 


Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
265438 "professor@f..." <professor@f...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
I'm stating up front that I can't answer your question directly because I have
not taken the steps to flatten a sole as you're contemplating.
I have a L-N large scraper plane (patterned on the Stanley #112)with an original
L-N blade that has a similar problem in the sole and the same performance.  It
has not seen enough use to cause the issue through wear.  I did acquire it
second-hand and the sole did not have any evidence that it touched wood.  I
believe the previous owner sold it rather than deal with the issue.
OTOH I have a Stanley #12 with a dead flat sole and a Hock blade that performs
admirably.
I admit that I have not taken the trouble to contact Lie-Nielsen Tool Works
about the sole on the #112 since the #12 fills the gap in my arsenal, so I don't
know what their take is on the flat sole effect.
Frank S in IA

 

    On Thursday, March 15, 2018 7:48 AM, Matthew Groves 
wrote:
 

 I think you answered your own question.

When using a card scraper there is no sole at all, or you could think about it
as a highly disfigured sole that doesn’t even touch the wood.

Your whispy thin shavings can come with the sole just as it already is. Your
iron might not as sharp as you think.

You can remove it from the plane and test it like a card scraper. 


Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
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OldTools@s...
265439 Claudio DeLorenzi <admin@d...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
For what it's worth I had this issue last year with some highly figured
walnut crotch.  Just maybe these thick blades are not better than the thin
ones on the original Stanley model?  I know it's heresy to think that thin
blades might be  better.
 If you have an old hand saw which isn't pitted (and not otherwise
valuable), cut a new blade for your scraper plane out of it.  Try that and
see if you find the same results I did.
 The LN Co has a video where Deneb fettles one (I can't recall on what
webpage it's linked from, but Google it).  I tried the method shown but it
wasn't good for the wood I was scraping (I bought one to try).  Didn't
someone here also mention wiping the wood with denatured alcohol
occasionally?  ...maybe that helped, not really sure.
One more thing about the thinblades-  Finding the right height, so that it
takes a cut without the thin blade making a clicking sound (it shouldn't
snap back)  at the end of each stroke is the tricky part.

How hard is your wood?  The softer it is, the more difficult it will be to
scrape.
Claudio

On Mar 15, 2018 9:06 AM, "professor@f..." <
professor@f...> wrote:
265441 Claudio DeLorenzi <admin@d...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: Bought an old bench.
That's outstanding!  Nice score Stacey.  It's a good 'un.
Cheers
Claudio
PS tradition dictates we have to give you an enthusiastic  ''you suck'" for
such an amazing buy.

On Mar 15, 2018 10:57 AM,  wrote:

I picked up an old woodworking bench a few days ago at a yard sale. It is
about 8 1/2 feet long. I will add more pictures in the next few days, along
with a couple of questions.
By the way, I paid $300 CDN for the bench, & 2 metal dogs.

https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk



Stacey Darrington
604-617-4754
Mission, BC
V2V 7E8

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
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OldTools@s...
265442 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

>
> So I have had this scraper plane for quite some time now, a Stanley No112
> (honking big scraper that looks like a plane Jeff). A round to-it suddenly
> appeared and I decided I should begin using the beast. So I honed a nice
> 45deg angle plus micro-bevels front and back on the Hock iron that came
> with it . And have given it a wee bit of a hook. The iron cuts beautifully
> hand-held.


I have the LN112, and have posted of my trials and tribulations over the
years.  Check the archives for further insights including hooks, no hooks,
raising the toe, etc.

I don't think your plane's sole is the issue, since the blade cuts handheld.

I too wonder about your definition of sharp.  The LN comes with a hugely
thick iron, and I can't sharpen it well hand held.  I have to use a guide.
Once I built the guide, and kept it at a true 45°, the thing cut like a
beast.

Not so sure with your blade, as the stock blades in my vintage 12s are
nowhere near the same tool, requiring a hook.  The Hock may be somewhere in
between.

But setting the toe on a piece of paper when setting the blade seems to be
key also.

-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, Ca, waiting for the next patch of rain to hit.
265443 Paul Drake <bdbafh@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Kirk,

I prefer taking apart a feeler gauge and using a couple of pieces parallel
to the blade to set the height.

What pieces I last used eludes me.

Paul
265444 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: Bought an old bench.
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM,  wrote:

> I picked up an old woodworking bench a few days ago at a yard sale. It is
> about 8 1/2 feet long. I will add more pictures in the next few days, along
> with a couple of questions.
> By the way, I paid $300 CDN for the bench, & 2 metal dogs.
> https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk
>

Dang, that is just a shame.  It appears you even have a big enough space
for it too.  Well done.  Enjoy.
-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
265445 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Paul Drake  wrote:

> Kirk,
>
> I prefer taking apart a feeler gauge and using a couple of pieces parallel
> to the blade to set the height.
>
> What pieces I last used eludes me.
>
>
That's the problem with feeler gauges, first finding them, and then
remembering the numbers to use.  Guess you could inscribe it on the plane,
near the hang hole.

Printer paper I have easy access to.  Currently measuring at 0.0040" here
in the office. (Cheap legal pads showing up at 0.0025")

Found a few posts on Knots and others, one of which has Hamler saying he
prefers a scraper (thin) in the LN112.  What do I know?


-- 
Kirk Eppler, off to meetings
265446 Paul Drake <bdbafh@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Kirk,

Hang hole?

1 April ain't for a couple more weeks.

I don't yet have standing here to suggest that the spittoon get a cleaning.

I'd gladly rescue any plane even a maroon colored one with a plastic
adjuster knob from having a hang hole bored.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Paul
265447 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Hey Kirk
Say more about this after your meeting- very interested
C
265448 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
for everyone's information, a cut sheet of 20 lb. white bond (75 g/m^2, of
any post-consumer waste content, any size i've measured) is specified in
the USA to mic at 0.0040".  i've been in and around the printing business
the last 22 years, and that's a pretty fixed standard.  so you can shim to
your heart's content, at least up to about four sheets (before you might
get deformation issues in the stock).

i can't speak to the specs of paper sourced for our european, antipodean,
or other brethren scattered about the place.

bill
felton, ca

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:53 AM Kirk Eppler  wrote
265449 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: Bought an old bench.
Beauty, eh?

Ed Minch
265450 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑15 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On 2018-03-15 9:39 AM, Kirk Eppler wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Don Schwartz  <mailto:dks@t...>> wrote:
>
>
>     So I have had this scraper plane for quite some time now, a
>     Stanley No112 (honking big scraper that looks like a plane Jeff).
>     A round to-it suddenly appeared and I decided I should begin using
>     the beast. So I honed a nice 45deg angle plus micro-bevels front
>     and back on the Hock iron that came with it . And have given it a
>     wee bit of a hook. The iron cuts beautifully hand-held. 
>
>
> I have the LN112, and have posted of my trials and tribulations over 
> the years.  Check the archives for further insights including hooks, 
> no hooks, raising the toe, etc.
>
> I don't think your plane's sole is the issue, since the blade cuts 
> handheld.
>
> I too wonder about your definition of sharp.  The LN comes with a 
> hugely thick iron, and I can't sharpen it well hand held.  I have to 
> use a guide.  Once I built the guide, and kept it at a true 45°, the 
> thing cut like a beast.
>
> Not so sure with your blade, as the stock blades in my vintage 12s are 
> nowhere near the same tool, requiring a hook.  The Hock may be 
> somewhere in between.
>
> But setting the toe on a piece of paper when setting the blade seems 
> to be key also.
>
Thanks to all who responded. Having returned safely through the snow and 
ice from what should have been a 1-1/2 hr trip, but became 3 hrs, I've 
made some progress. First, I will sum up what I learned earlier.

The iron that L-N provides for their Cabinetmaker's scraper plane is 
1/8in. (0.125").I couldn't find any guidance as to sharpening and set-up.

Ron Hock sells 2 thicknesses of iron for the No.112 - both high carbon 
sterl, suitable for rolling a burr, 3/32in which he says is more 
popular, and the 1/16in which is more flexible. They come ground to 
45deg.. Mine is the thicker of the two. He says to hone them at 45deg, 
and to burnish at 15deg.

LV sells the Veritas scraper plane in the same size range as the No.112. 
Unlike the Stanley, it has "an integral thumbscrew that bows the blade 
to eliminate ridges in the work surface caused by blade corners." The 
plane comes with a 0.055" high-carbon steel blade suited to this 
technique, but they also sell a 1/8in (0.125") thick blade of A2 tool 
steel for use without bowing.

Veritas provides detailed instructions for grinding and honing their 
irons, which I followed to the best of my ability yesterday , using 
their MK-some number iron grinding jig to maintain Hock's 45deg bevel on 
a Washita stone and on 15micron 3M abrasive glued to glass. I added 
small secondary bevels and back-bevels using 2 finer grades of the 3M 
micro-abrasives. When I finished, I was unable to see any reflection 
from the edge ( no little white line ) in directional lighting. Then, 
using the same hard steel burnishing rod I use for my Sandvik card 
scrapers, I went over the bevel at 45 deg for 5 strokes of the 
burnisher, then 5 light strokes at about 15 deg, , consistent with LV 
and Ron Hock.  Testing the iron hand-held on cherry, I could produce a 
satisfying whispy curl of shavings. But not in the plane, as I 
described. So I started flattening, and made some progress.

Today I burnished out yesterday's burr, and re-burnished using the same 
tool and a 15deg block as a guide, until I got a small even burr. I 
checked hand-held cutting, and got a nice whispy shaving. I then tried 
using paper to set the blade depth on the plane. I set the angular 
adjustment as close to vertical as it would go. Carefully inserting the 
blade from below, I set the blade depth using a single sheet of paper ( 
0.004in thick ) under the front of the sole, stopping short of the 
mouth, on a sheet of 1/4" glass. Looking underneath, it seemed the blade 
was too far exposed but I decided to try it. I hammer-adjusted the iron 
for even depth of cut, tapping the side of the iron with a small brass 
hammer. And tried it on cherry which has been finishh-planed. The cut 
was too aggressive, and I had no way to back it off as the bedding was 
vertical. So I restarted, same as above, but without the paper. Still 
no-go. Crinkled shaving 0.005 thick and chatter.

I then leaned the bed forward by 1.85 deg ( thank-you Tilt-box!) and 
reset the iron without paper below the sole, resulting in shavings > 
0.004in with some chatter, and no small effort required to make it cut. 
So I then moved the bed back towards the tote by making a half-turn 
adjustment of the brass wheels. This is better, giving me shavings of 
0.002 -0.003, with less chatter and lower effort.

So I will try again tomorrow by starting out with the bed angled 5deg 
forward before setting the blade depth ( as suggested by Veritas, but 
which I initially failed to note ;-{ ) . This will give me 5 deg of 
adjustability, allowing me to reduce the depth of cut from the initial 
setting. If that doesn't help, I'll go back to flattening the sole and 
try again...

FWIW
Don






-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265453 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Claudio DeLorenzi 
wrote:

> Hey Kirk
> Say more about this after your meeting- very interested
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:53 AM Kirk Eppler  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Paul Drake  wrote:
>>
>> Found a few posts on Knots and others, one of which has Hamler saying he
>> prefers a scraper (thin) in the LN112.  What do I know?
>>
>
Here is the Hamler post on Knots about using the thin blade

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools
/help-ln-112-scraper-plane">http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-
knots/hand-tools/help-ln-112-scraper-plane


And Another one as well

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools-
and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie-nielsen-112">http://forums.finewoodworking.com
/fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools-and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie-
nielsen-112


But seriously, poke through our archives, lots of great stuff on getting
the 112 to work.  That's where I just found an error in my first post.  I
sharpen my 112 blade at 60°.  Really hard to do with most jigs due to the
width at 2-7/8"

-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, calling it quits for now.
265454 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

>
> The iron that L-N provides for their Cabinetmaker's scraper plane is
> 1/8in. (0.125").I couldn't find any guidance as to sharpening and set-up.
>
>  I set the blade depth using a single sheet of paper ( 0.004in thick )
> under the front of the sole, stopping short of the mouth, on a sheet of
> 1/4" glass.
>

Here is LN's directions

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/large-scraping-plane

I put the paper only under the very edge of the toe, not the whole front of
the plane


-- 
Kirk Eppler Really calling it quits this time.
265457 sdarring@i... 2018‑03‑16 Re: Bought an old bench.
Thanks everyone. I really didn't need another bench, but just could  
not walk away from it. It needs a few repairs, but should turn out  
great eventually. (When I get around to it...)

For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do.

Stacey

Quoting Ed Minch :

> Beauty, eh?
>
> Ed Minch
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 11:05 AM, sdarring@i... wrote:
>>
>> I picked up an old woodworking bench a few days ago at a yard sale.  
>> It is about 8 1/2 feet long. I will add more pictures in the next  
>> few days, along with a couple of questions.
>> By the way, I paid $300 CDN for the bench, & 2 metal dogs.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk <https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stacey Darrington
>
>



Stacey Darrington
604-617-4754
Mission, BC
V2V 7E8
265460 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: Bought an old bench.
> On Mar 15, 2018, at 11:47 PM, sdarring@i... wrote:
> 
> 
> For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do.


Looks big enough for a queen size mattress.

Ed
265461 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
On 2018-03-15 6:04 PM, Kirk Eppler wrote:
> Here is the Hamler post on Knots about using the thin blade
>
> http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools
/help-ln-112-scraper-plane">http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-
knots/hand-tools/help-ln-112-scraper-plane
>
>
> And Another one as well
>
> http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools-
and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie-nielsen-112">http://forums.finewoodworking.com
/fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools-and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie-
nielsen-112
>
>
> But seriously, poke through our archives, lots of great stuff on getting
> the 112 to work.  That's where I just found an error in my first post.  I
> sharpen my 112 blade at 60°.  Really hard to do with most jigs due to the
> width at 2-7/8"

Thanks! I hadn't seen that. The first link was particularly interesting. 
I do have card scrapers I could try using in the plane, but will 
continue with the thicker Hock iron for the present.

Hammler mentions his spring-adjust modification for the No.112. I came 
across this video of some his modifiications, and it was among them, 
briefly shown after he discusses his modified 212 design.

They come at about 12 minutes into this video 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNw_SeH0JRk

What a productive guy!

Don


-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265462 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: Bought an old bench.
Stacey,


Good plan: Clean it and "let it talk to you."  You may see signs of changes and
repairs made over the several decades, perhaps more than a century, since the
bench was made.


Look for dates and names, which are always fun to find.  With today's on-line
resources, you may even be able to identify any name that you find.


This bench has a story. Your job is to discover that story and document it here
to whatever extent you can.


Joints dovetailed? What sort of fasteners, factory-made or blacksmith made? Wood
species? Tool marks?


And, hey, the recent thread about removing crud may be very helpful. 


John Ruth

________________________________
From: OldTools  on behalf of sdarring@i...

Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 11:47:46 PM
To: Ed Minch
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bought an old bench.

Thanks everyone. I really didn't need another bench, but just could
not walk away from it. It needs a few repairs, but should turn out
great eventually. (When I get around to it...)

For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do.

Stacey

Quoting Ed Minch :

> Beauty, eh?
>
> Ed Minch
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 11:05 AM, sdarring@i... wrote:
>>
>> I picked up an old woodworking bench a few days ago at a yard sale.
>> It is about 8 1/2 feet long. I will add more pictures in the next
>> few days, along with a couple of questions.
>> By the way, I paid $300 CDN for the bench, & 2 metal dogs.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk <https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stacey Darrington
>
>



Stacey Darrington
604-617-4754
Mission, BC
V2V 7E8

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
265465 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
>> Here is the Hamler post on Knots about using the thin blade
>>
>> http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools
/help-ln-112-scraper-plane">http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-
knots/hand-tools/help-ln-112-scraper-plane

    Hamler is a genius of our time. His mind is simply beyond the rest 
of us.
When he is feeling good its like standing next to a charging locomotive. 
You just stand there with your eyes open trying to follow it all.
Once in a great while I get to sneak in something he hasn't thought of.
But its so rare.. hahahahaha

   Anyway thin scraper blades rock!  They flex.
  All the original Stanley blades are very thin. I had a #85 for years 
and it came with a very thin blade.
   Second part of the magic is relieving the frog or blade holder 
--behind the blade---.

  I restored a #81 (pretty frame scraper with a wood sole, Jeff) and 
made a very tight mouth, thinking this may improve performance.  I made 
a thick blade from an old circular saw blade and honed it.
   Awful!! Chatter, hard pushing, impossible to set. EEEEEEEEEYUCK!

   So I shaved a little wood from the sole behind the blade, Yup, right 
where you want the support on a plane, you relieve it on a scraper.
(Stanley sometimes used a bed liner shim, that stopped 1/4" short of the 
mouth leaving the blade to dangle)
     And I cut out a nice thin "old handsaw" blade.
  This time I didn't even need to hone it or burnish at all.

   A good thorough drawfiling at 45 degrees, and who cares from accurate 
degrees. Take it out the vise and OMG
    Set the blade for any shaving you like. Leave it way out rank and it 
hogs with wild abandon. Practically a scrub of a scraper.
  Set it close and whisper thin shavings all day long.

  I really have no idea who started the thicker blade craze for scrapers.
  But they were wrong. Dead wrong.
     yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
265466 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Got curious and measured the thickness of about 30 Stanley planes and the 3
Stanley scraper blades I am sure were intended to go into scrapers.

Almost all plane blades are .075" (give or take a couple of thou either way, and
this is true of #2-#8, regardless of age.  There are an occasional .085 thrown
in there - again regardless of plane size, and there is even a .1 - it has a “V”
logo, pre WW1.  3 Sargents and 3 Milers Fallses (sp?) all had .075.

The 2 #12 scraper blades are .045.  My favorite scraper “plane”, the #80, has a
.045 original

Ed Minch
265468 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Well it occurred to me it was hard to describe what I was talking 
about, so I tried to draw you guys a pic.
Never was any good as an artist but maybe this will help. Use your 
imagination.....................

  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/scraperbed.jpg

  The "frog" stops short leaving the blade to dangle, and there is a 
little relief behind the blade through the sole.
    This allows the thin blade to flex, instead of a rigid mounting.

    That flex makes a nearly impossible tool into a very tame one anyone 
can set up and make use of.

  There is a reason the #80 outsold all other scrapers combined. First, 
it was cheap, but with the thin blade incorporating flex room, and easy 
set?
      Its a wonderful effective tool! No shop anywhere should be without 
one.

   The only real advise I have for using a scraper plane (once you have 
it cutting)  is to watch the very ends of the workpiece.
   Try a wild skew when working the very ends. There is a tendency to 
dig in at the end, so you need to counter that.

   Attacking from another angle besides straight down the work, and 
skewing the tool, helps a lot.
        yours again Scott


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
265473 Matt Cooper <manocooper@l...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: Bought an old bench.
Is there a hall table in your future? Or possibly a side table in the dining
room?

Yeah that's the ticket.



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S8+.

-------- Original message --------
From: sdarring@i...
Date: 3/15/18 23:47 (GMT-05:00)
To: Ed Minch 
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Bought an old bench.

Thanks everyone. I really didn't need another bench, but just could
not walk away from it. It needs a few repairs, but should turn out
great eventually. (When I get around to it...)

For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do.

Stacey

Quoting Ed Minch :

> Beauty, eh?
>
> Ed Minch
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 11:05 AM, sdarring@i... wrote:
>>
>> I picked up an old woodworking bench a few days ago at a yard sale.
>> It is about 8 1/2 feet long. I will add more pictures in the next
>> few days, along with a couple of questions.
>> By the way, I paid $300 CDN for the bench, & 2 metal dogs.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk <https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stacey Darrington
>
>



Stacey Darrington
604-617-4754
Mission, BC
V2V 7E8

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OldTools@s...
265476 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
On 2018-03-16 11:23 AM, scott grandstaff wrote:
>
>   The only real advise I have for using a scraper plane (once you have 
> it cutting)  is to watch the very ends of the workpiece.
>   Try a wild skew when working the very ends. There is a tendency to 
> dig in at the end, so you need to counter that.
>
>   Attacking from another angle besides straight down the work, and 
> skewing the tool, helps a lot.
>        yours again Scott 


Boy that was good timing Scott! I was about to report on my findings 
this morning when I saw this.

First thing I did today was ensure that my practice board was reasonably 
flat, as Tom suggested. It wasn't quite, so I touched it up - good 
enough for smoothing. Then I tried scraping with the same settings I had 
yesterday, with no perceptible improvement. Chatter, 0.005 shavings, etc.

Next I inclined the blade bed ( frog?)  5.1 deg forward of vertical. 
Reset the iron on the glass surface, & hammer-adjusted for equal cutting 
side to side. I expected a more aggressive cut due to the angle, but I 
was wrong. I got smaller 0.003in shavings, no chatter, and a nice 
surface sheen on the cherry.

Then I adjusted the angle of incline to 5.85 deg,and found I can 
consistently get shavings of 0.001-0.002in on cherry, with very low 
effort.  Ditto for mahogany and white oak. Sweet!

I switched over to my project shelves two of which didn't respond as 
well to smoothing as I'd wanted. I got the same results as above. Easy 
going, whispy shavings, and a lovely surface. Skewing helps, as Scott 
says. Only thing is I found I had to be very careful both starting and 
stopping, because the iron wants to dig in. The mouth on this plane is 
wide open!  I had to be mindful of starting with downward pressure on 
the front knob, and finishing with light pressure on the tote when 
finishing the stroke, lifting the front knob very slightly. Very little 
downward pressure in the middle of the stroke.

Kirk: I couldn't find your posts in the archives. Too many hits!

So, that's it. Except for some niggling details. I started this thread 
by asking about flattening the sole of the Stanley 112, then went ahead 
and started flattening before I had a response. But I didn't finish the 
flattening, because I started believing maybe it wasn't necessary, 
thanks to Matthew Groves. Maybe it isn't. Or maybe if I continued 
flattening, the plane would be more manageable at the beginning and end 
of a stroke. Maybe. I might do that sometime, just to see.

Second, Scott and others speak strongly in favour of thin irons for 
these planes, and they may be better - or not. But I have a fairly thick 
one working for me, so for now I'll 'dance with the one who brung me'.

Third, Kirk and Brent both recommend bevel angles widely different from 
the traditional 45 deg which I have stuck with, 60 and 30 degrees 
respectively. I respect those opinions, but won't be going down that 
rabbit hole anytime soon. Too much grinding of good steel would be required!

Somewhere in his writing, the esteemed Mr. Hamler suggests burnishing a 
hook, then folding it over onto the iron, and creating and burnishing a 
new hook there. What's that about?

Finally, I'd like to register my vote for this Stanley No.112 scraper 
plane being the fussiest, most finnickety plane ever!

FWIW

Don, getting ready to wax a shovel and attack some heavy wet white stuff 
impeding passage to the bins in the alley


-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265478 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
You are absolutely right concerning the angle a scraper meets the wood.

Try it yourself guys. Stand a card scraper nearly straight up. Push
It hogs, I mean hogs the wood.
  But take the same scraper and lean it forward 20 degrees. Now push.
It peels off dust!
  And you have anywhere inbetween, on the fly.

   I use this trick all the time working a hand (card) scraper.
Stand it up to cut, lay it over to finish. ;)

   On one of my homemade plane totes, I scraped it start to finish. No 
sandpaper ever touched it.
  Scraping this way puts you through all the scraper angles and all the 
grain attack angles.  Every single one. Plus the trick of sliding 
sideways as you push.

       If you want to really learn scraping, do a tote. haahaah
(rosewood and all of the hardest woods are the easiest to scrape)

>
>  getting ready to wax a shovel and attack some heavy wet white stuff

  my man

    yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
265479 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
On 2018-03-16 3:08 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:
> Stand a card scraper nearly straight up. Push
> It hogs, I mean hogs the wood.
>  But take the same scraper and lean it forward 20 degrees. Now push.
> It peels off dust!
>  And you have anywhere inbetween, on the fly. 


The weird thing about the 112 is that the further forward the 
inclination of the iron, the deeper and more aggressive the cut. Seems 
counterintuitive.

Don


-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265480 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> On 2018-03-16 3:08 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:
>
>> Stand a card scraper nearly straight up. Push
>> It hogs, I mean hogs the wood.
>>  But take the same scraper and lean it forward 20 degrees. Now push.
>> It peels off dust!
>>  And you have anywhere inbetween, on the fly.
>>
>
>
> The weird thing about the 112 is that the further forward the inclination
> of the iron, the deeper and more aggressive the cut. Seems counterintuitive.
>
> Tilting the blade is two changes on a 12 & 112, angle and depth of cut.
If you angle too much, you need to retract the blade a bit.  The pivot is
above the cutting edge.

-- 
Kirk Eppler suffering through a group edit session.
265481 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
I think this will depend on how much you have turned your burr over.  If
you do excessive pressure, you can curl that burr right over so that it's
practically closed over itself, like a wave that has crested over, and you
need to lean it almost flat to engage the wood.
   It's a cutting tool, as your shavings will attest and the so called burr
is the blade.  The same principles apply as when you sharpen anything, so
you need both intersecting surfaces to be nice and smooth.  If you're good
with draw filing, you can pull off nice long clean strips of steel, leaving
a nice crisp edge along the distal edge.  Then all you need to do is hone
the one  flat side of an angle blade (or both sides of a card scraper).
  Don't forget to consolidate (work harden) the edge after applying a
little oil to the edge (old timers used their ear for a handy supply of
lube), then burnish it to squash the steel into the "burr".  You should be
able to easily feel it when you've got one with your fingernail ( and it's
a sharp blade which can cut your skin if you are not careful).   Thicker
blades are totally different and much more difficult (for me anyways).
Thin blades (less the 40 or 50 thou) are easiest to do, provided you have
good steel.  I like the really super thin scrapers I got from Lee Valley in
their kit or set of card scrapers.  The thinnest one in the set is about 9
thou, and it's perfect for doing what Scott described with shapes because
you can easily curl it over to do rounded shapes without having to cut the
blade.  The most common sizes you find are about 25 to 30 thousandths of an
inch in thickness.
Claudio
265482 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑03‑16 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
On 2018-03-16 3:52 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi wrote:
> Thicker blades are totally different and much more difficult (for me 
> anyways).  Thin blades (less the 40 or 50 thou) are easiest to do, 
> provided you have good steel.  I like the really super thin scrapers I 
> got from Lee Valley in their kit or set of card scrapers.  The 
> thinnest one in the set is about 9 thou, and it's perfect for doing 
> what Scott described with shapes because you can easily curl it over 
> to do rounded shapes without having to cut the blade.  The most common 
> sizes you find are about 25 to 30 thousandths of an inch in thickness.

For sure. Some time in the 70s I bought several of the Sandvik card 
scrapers. I liked them so much, I tried to get more, but they were no 
longer available. Then I  bought some other thicker ones ( Record or 
Marples maybe? ), but have never liked them as much. Ditto for the 
super-thin LV scrapers. They're flexible to a fault when it comes to 
flat surfaces. They all take a good edge, but I still prefer the Sandviks.

Don

-- 
I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but
I’ve moved on.

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
265486 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑03‑17 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
I was also referring to the very thick blades on the LN scraper plane.   I
have one of the old LV inserts they used to sell, and it’s blade is around
20 to 25 thou if I recall correctly.  I checked out the Hammler guy last
night for hours!- he of the miniatures!  Cool miniature everything- serious
talent.  Also, in one of his videos it sounds like he was the one who
designed the insert for LV?  His own personal scraper plane that he demos
on his video also uses a thin blade.  Thanks Kirk for finding that guy!
Your Google Fu is at Grand Master levels, and much appreciated!
Claudio
265487 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑03‑17 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
> On Mar 17, 2018, at 9:44 AM, Claudio DeLorenzi  wrote:
> 
> Also, in one of his videos it sounds like he was the one who
> designed the insert for LV?  His own personal scraper plane that he demos
> on his video also uses a thin blade. 


Our own George Langford did this too, maybe 15 years ago:

http://georgesbasement.com/no
4scrpr.html <http://georg
esbasement.com/no4scrpr.html>

and

http://georgesbasement.com/mk
no4scr.html <http://georg
esbasement.com/mkno4scr.html>

Pretty fancy machine work there, and his blade is made from an old hacksaw blade
- so it is thin.  Here is one another George made after seeing it:

http://george
sbasement.com/GeorgeAllchinScraperPlane.htm <http://georgesbasement
.com/GeorgeAllchinScraperPlane.htm">http://georgesbasement.com/GeorgeAllchinScra
perPlane.htm>

Ed Minch
265488 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2018‑03‑17 Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 7:14 PM Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
>> On 2018-03-16 3:52 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> For sure. Some time in the 70s I bought several of the Sandvik card
>> scrapers. I liked them so much, I tried to get more, but they were no
>> longer available. Then I  bought some other thicker ones ( Record or
>> Marples maybe? ), but have never liked them as much. Ditto for the
>> super-thin LV scrapers. They're flexible to a fault when it comes to flat
>> surfaces. They all take a good edge, but I still prefer the Sandviks.
>> 
>> Don

I found this comment about the Sandvik scraper very interesting. I have scrapers
from LN (thin, 20 thou, I like a lot), old Disston and Stanley of various
thicknesses (one is marked w/ a Keystone and D7, wonder where that came from?),
and a variety of unmarked scrapers. But, my favorite is a Sandvic at 27 thou. I
inherited it from an in-law who was a finish carpenter. He put his kit away in
1954 (dated from the newspapers various tools were wrapped in). It has always
been my go to scraper. Just seems to take and hold an edge better than any other
and have the right amount of flex for most jobs.

Bill
265493 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2018‑03‑19 Re: fettling a scraper plane
Don,
It has been a while since I sold my 112, which was the only scraper I
could ever get to work properly.  My fault, not the other scrapers.
Anyhow, I sharpened my 112 blade (which was an original Stanley) dead
straight and used no burr.  Angle didn't seem to matter.  That beauty
would take a beautiful thin shaving consistently on almost anything.
I always attributed my lack of success with other types of scrapers
with my lack of ability to turn a decent burr.  Another whole
discussion about which I have nothing to add....
Don't know if this will help, but might be worth a try.  Dead
straight, sharp edge.
Good luck.
Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
265505 sdarring@i... 2018‑03‑20 Re: Bought an old bench.
> Quoting Ed Minch :
>
>> Beauty, eh?
>>
>> Ed Minch
>>
  Sure is. Here are a few more pictures showing more detail.

https://imgur.com/a/CzUOk

With work, & ice storm damage to trees I don't have a lot of shop time  
right now, so the bench will just have to wait. I do enjoy looking at  
it as I go by though.

I picked up a Stanley #59 dowel jig yesterday for $10CDN at a gun  
show. Unfortunately it only has one sleeve with it.. Pics if it & my  
$5 dovetail saw soon...

Stacey Darrington
604-617-4754
Mission, BC
V2V 7E8
265509 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2018‑03‑21 Re: Bought an old bench.
Stacey,

When you glue it up, do what the restorers of valuable antiques do: use hide
glue because it is reversible.

About the uneven left end: Maybe he lived a busy life and never found the time
to finish off the left end. I can imagine that he often looked at it and said
“some day!”

John Ruth
Metuchen, NJ

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2018, at 9:24 PM, "sdarring@i..."  wrote:

Recent Bios FAQ