OldTools Archive
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264688 | Micah Salb <msalb@l...> | 2018‑01‑10 | When Good Squares Go Bad |
GGs, I am tired of squares that aren’t square. I don’t understand how craftsmen of yonder days did good work with squares that weren’t square! Are there reliable ways of squaring a square? Micah Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it contain confidential information and are intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please delete this e-mail from your system and notify the sender immediately by e-mail. Thank you. |
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264689 | "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
Check the blade is tight if not tighten it with a few taps making sure its square, then I take the brass face off flatten it clean the stock and re attach it. If it's still out get the files out and file it square, the only tricky part is right up at where the blade joins the body removing the brass helps. I square up the underneath part of the blade first then draw a parallel line on the top face and file to the line. Pete -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Micah Salb Sent: 10 January 2018 14:01 To: porch |
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264690 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
I'm going to be the contrarian here- I assume we are we talking rosewood, brass, and blued spring steel type squares? Squares are one of the measurement tools that are self proving, so you can test it against itself to make sure it's good- you don't need any precision metrology stuff to test it. I have had issues with those old rosewood ones- the ones where the wood has a wonderful patina on it and is rounded off from decades of use, typically with the diamond shaped brass washers and peened steel pins. These can look solid, until you stress them a little bit and see that there is a few thousandths of movement between the stock and the blade (sometimes the holes in the steel blade have enlarged because of rust and abnormal wear from abnormal movement). Peening the steel over a bit tighter over the brass washer doesn't seem to work if the hole is enlarged, out of round, or whatever- the tension is only going to be a temporary fix. Using some slow set epoxy resin - the kind with steel particles in it- in the holes in the steel blade, and going through all the hassles of fixing these when they are really bad isn't a really good return on your investment, since you could probably make a new, better one in about the same amount of time. So if it is just a matter of peening the pins in a bit then go for it, but if it is moving alot (meaning that the holes are wallowed out through the wood, or the steel, or both) then it's probably not worth the effort- there are so many good ones around it doesn't make sense to fix the bad ones. Put it up on the wall (after marking it as a bad square), and look for a good one. Claudio On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Maddex, Peter |
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264691 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
I check every square that comes into my shop. First thing. Never allow a bad square to linger at all. Squares can sometimes be fixed. I have had to repair a few squares including couple of starretts in my life. You first have to have a master square you absolutely trust. This is not as easy to prove as you might think. There are many surfaces on every square and any one of them might be out a hair, either though misuse or casual manufacture. So it takes a while testing and retesting to make sure every bit of your master square is square. If you go though this, "retire" the master for use, except as a master square. Mine in an 1896 Starrett that I was unable to find any fault at all in. I already loved and trusted the square, but after much testing I deemed it the master. Every square in my shop is checked against it. It leads a sheltered life now. Fixing a square is often not really as hard as figuring out what to fix. This is not as easy as you might think. Is it really the joint? Are the legs genuinely parallel? Is the face truly square to the stock? Are you measuring against a bad part and thinking another part is bad? When you are finally sure exactly what is wrong with your square? You can go about correcting it. Wooden stock steel blade squares can often have the joint reset. Most of the time these get dropped and closed up. Look for the tell tale dented corner where it fell. Most of the time you can whack them back open with a soft driving punch, a vise and a hammer. Light blows and keep checking against your master. Hold both your master and your patient together, up against bright window light and squint, as humans do. Make sure they are both clean. Errant contaminants can make a fool of you quick. If the rivets are tight (it takes quite a few light blows to move), then just use thinned adhesive blown in with air after you reset it. (a soda straw or more stringent air) because you don't really need much. Thinned pva or water thin super glue here. If the rivets are loose pein them tight again. This usually won't work. Like Claudio says, truly loose rivets make for a candidate you simply let go. Immediately. I won't even hang a bad square on the wall. If it has considerable decorative value sell it. Otherwise toss it right now. Out, get it out before you forget, and it messes with you. I have run into a couple of occasions the square was never right. Unparallel steel is not damage through use. Finding the fault and correcting it with a file is slow work. But its do-able. Keep checking and rechecking as you slowly bring the square to true. Learning to use a file with precision is not automatic at all. But its a skill worth pursuing. Steel squares get whacked in any direction. Peining the corner either open or closed results in unsightly damage. Occasionally its worth the trouble because its unusually sized and you just like that size for some reason. But you better like it. Steel squares in standard configurations can be had for too little money to waste your time over. If there is very much wrong with an all steel square, toss it regardless. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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264692 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
Hey Scott If I'm not mistaken, you are also bringing in steel carpenter's squares and such into the discussion? (well, maybe also combination squares, double squares, die maker's squares (adjustable!), and so many other machinist squares, knife edge precision squares, architect squares, machine set up squares, and on. It might get a bit confusing doing all of these, hehe?) I've only ever seen the prick punch / center punch trick done on steel carpenter squares, never on the rosewood/steel ones? Claudio On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 12:49 PM, scott grandstaff |
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264695 | Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
Or, you could simply get some blue masking tape and write 'wrong' on the un-square ones. Seems to work on a number of levels. Happy to help. Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. |
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264696 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑01‑10 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
ooohhhhuunnnnggg Ed Minch |
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264708 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2018‑01‑11 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
Oh Yeah The center punch trick is for flat steel squares you want to keep for some reason. I have one that is thin and light and its a size not usually made. Has about a 14" long leg. I like it. Handy for some work. So it was worth the trouble to true it up again. I got a small Starrett machinist's double square once that was pretty far out of square. I love the little 4" size and keep 2 of them handy at all times (in case one gets mislaid). I do a lot of small work as everyone knows. When I scored the second one (yard sale or ebay, don't remember) I checked it against my master as always, and it was pretty far off. I cleaned it well and checked again and again and no doubt about it, it was out at least a full degree. Hard to believe it got out of the Starrett plant like that, but it did. In that case I had to take a really thin warding file and redo the bottom of the slot in the head, that the rule rides. Its been good ever since. I am not very critical precise about a lot of things. But for layout I try to be pretty sharp. As Roy says, "Plenty enough fugly is going to creep in as you work. Try to at least start well." Since we were talking the dreaded pegboard last week or so, I took some pix. Here is how to put 348394850489 screwdrivers and pliers into a small space. Make some planks with holes drilled and drill the back of the plank for a couple of heavy pegboard hooks. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard2.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard5.jpg And here are 6 small squares in 5" of space. This was a recent quickie trial using a "scrap 'o woodply" off the floor. I'll make a cuter one later. haahah http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard6.jpg yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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264710 | David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> | 2018‑01‑11 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
I use the same rig for my plier and screwdrivers. I’m going to borrow your square idea though. I have most of mine in the measurement tools drawer in a divider. But I wanted to have some on the wall rack behind the wood working bench. I have two of mine flat against the board and it takes up too much space. Real estate over the bench is a scarce commodity. I thought about stacking them but got hung up on the idea of putting them one behind the other. Thanks for sharing. From: scott grandstaff<mailto:scottg@s...> And here are 6 small squares in 5" of space. This was a recent quickie trial using a "scrap 'o woodply" off the floor. I'll make a cuter one later. haahah https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fuser s.snowcrest.net%2Fkitty%2Fsgrandstaff%2Fimages%2Fshop%2520pix%2Fpegboard6.jpg&da ta=02%7C01%7C%7Cc8b7fb707d414e89a58f08d55910be1c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaa aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636512850792448102&sdata=BR86ZAIdt5slEePQob0LverxCzk8uUVmKHvlpJ%2B tKXQ%3D&reserved=0">https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A% 2F%2Fusers.snowcrest.net%2Fkitty%2Fsgrandstaff%2Fimages%2Fshop%2520pix%2Fpegboar d6.jpg&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc8b7fb707d414e89a58f08d55910be1c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636512850792448102&sdata=BR86ZAIdt5slEePQob0LverxCzk8uUVm KHvlpJ%2BtKXQ%3D&reserved=0 yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff |
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264711 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑01‑11 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
Thanks for that Tom - saner words were never spoken. I really like to build Windsor chairs because if the 4 legs are at 4 different angles, you can’t tell. The seat is created by eye so is not symmetrical side to side, or one chair to the next. The tip of the seat, the shape of the turnings, the back. Spindles are all different sizes (why do we make them with hand tools when you know they were made on a lathe as soon as one became available?). - it’s all an inexact sceince - that’s why I like ‘em. Ed Minch |
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264712 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2018‑01‑11 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
GG's I ran across a framing square that had been cut into two pieces. The apparent wastefulness puzzled me at first. Then I realized that perhaps the previous owner was unsuccessful in truing up this steel square, and thus had cut it to make two useful straightedges. They are useful at times. Now, if I could only figure out how to deal with a stainless-steel square which is nearly true square but both the stock and the tongue are bent so that they don't lie flat... John Ruth ________________________________ From: OldTools |
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264713 | curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> | 2018‑01‑11 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
> Now, if I could only figure out how to deal with a stainless-steel square > which is nearly true square but both the stock and the tongue are bent > so that they don't lie flat... It sounds like you have a carriage-makers square. Quite a find there... |
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264731 | David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> | 2018‑01‑13 | Re: When Good Squares Go Bad |
I would like to say that unless a tool is on its way to being repaired it's on itscway out the door of my shop. I would be lying. Some of Grandpa's tools, from both sides of the family, Dad's tools, and father in laws tools have pride of place just because. Then there is the framing square that hangs over the bench. I don't use it. It looks like it was in the tool kit for Noah's boys to play with. It's there because it has the full set of scales engraved in the sides of the blade. It's the only one like that I have. Is it straight and square? Don't know. I never checked. The Stanley from 1973 is still doing fine, and if I don't lend it out, it should stay that way. I keep wobbling close to the line but I don't think I crossed over to collector. Yet. |
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