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264688 Micah Salb <msalb@l...> 2018‑01‑10 When Good Squares Go Bad
GGs,

I am tired of squares that aren’t square.  I don’t understand how craftsmen of
yonder days did good work with squares that weren’t square!

Are there reliable ways of squaring a square?

Micah

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264689 "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Check the blade is tight if not tighten it with a few taps making sure its
square, then I take the brass face off flatten it clean the stock and re attach
it.
If it's still out get the files out and file it square, the only tricky part is
right up at where the blade joins the body removing the brass helps.
I square up the underneath part of the blade first then draw a parallel line on
the top face and file to the line.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of Micah Salb
Sent: 10 January 2018 14:01
To: porch 
Subject: [OldTools] When Good Squares Go Bad

GGs,

I am tired of squares that aren't square.  I don't understand how craftsmen of
yonder days did good work with squares that weren't square!

Are there reliable ways of squaring a square?

Micah

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264690 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
I'm going to be the contrarian here- I assume we are we talking rosewood,
brass,  and blued spring steel type squares?  Squares are one of the
measurement tools that are self proving, so you can test it against itself
to make sure it's good- you don't need any precision metrology stuff to
test it.
I have had issues with those old rosewood ones- the ones where the wood has
a wonderful patina on it and is rounded off from decades of use,  typically
with the diamond shaped brass washers and peened steel pins.  These can
look solid, until you stress them a little bit and see that there is a few
thousandths of movement between the stock and the blade (sometimes the
holes in the steel blade have enlarged because of rust and abnormal wear
from abnormal movement).
  Peening the steel over a bit tighter over the brass washer doesn't seem
to work if the hole is enlarged, out of round, or whatever- the tension is
only going to be a temporary fix.  Using some slow set epoxy resin - the
kind with steel particles in it- in the holes in the steel blade,  and
going through all the hassles of fixing these when they are really bad
isn't a really good return on your investment, since you could probably
make a new, better one in about the same amount of time.  So if it is just
a matter of peening the pins in a bit then go for it, but if it is moving
alot (meaning that the holes are wallowed out through the wood, or the
steel, or both) then it's probably not worth the effort- there are so many
good ones around it doesn't make sense to fix the bad ones.  Put it up on
the wall (after marking it as a bad square), and look for a good one.

Claudio

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Maddex, Peter 
wrote:
264691 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
I check every square that comes into my shop. First thing.
  Never allow a bad square to linger at all.
Squares can sometimes be fixed. I have had to repair a few squares 
including couple of starretts in my life.

   You first have to have a master square you absolutely trust. This is 
not as easy to prove as you might think. There are many surfaces on 
every square and any one of them might be out a hair, either though 
misuse or casual manufacture.
So it takes a while testing and retesting to make sure every bit of your 
master square is square.
      If you go though this, "retire" the master for use, except as a 
master square.

     Mine in an 1896 Starrett that I was unable to find any fault at all 
in.
I already loved and trusted the square, but after much testing I deemed 
it the master. Every square in my shop is checked against it.  It leads 
a sheltered life now.

   Fixing a square is often not really as hard as figuring out what to 
fix. This is not as easy as you might think. Is it really the joint? Are 
the legs genuinely parallel? Is the face truly square to the stock?
  Are you measuring against a bad part and thinking another part is bad?

   When you are finally sure exactly what is wrong with your square? You 
can go about correcting it.
Wooden stock steel blade squares can often have the joint reset.
  Most of the time these get dropped and closed up. Look for the tell 
tale dented corner where it fell.
  Most of the time you can whack them back open with a soft driving 
punch, a vise and a hammer. Light blows and keep checking against your 
master.
   Hold both your master and your patient together, up against bright 
window light and squint, as humans do.
  Make sure they are both clean. Errant contaminants can make a fool of 
you quick.

      If the rivets are tight (it takes quite a few light blows to 
move), then just use thinned adhesive blown in with air after you reset 
it. (a soda straw or more stringent air) because you don't really need 
much.  Thinned pva or water thin super glue here.

    If the rivets are loose pein them tight again. This usually won't work.
Like Claudio says, truly loose rivets make for a candidate you simply 
let go. Immediately.
  I won't even hang a bad square on the wall.
If it has considerable decorative value sell it. Otherwise toss it right 
now.
  Out, get it out before you forget, and it messes with you.

   I have run into a couple of occasions the square was never right. 
Unparallel steel is not damage through use. Finding the fault and 
correcting it with a file is slow work. But its do-able.  Keep checking 
and rechecking as you slowly bring the square to true.
  Learning to use a file with precision is not automatic at all. But its 
a skill worth pursuing.

  Steel squares get whacked in any direction.  Peining the corner either 
open or closed results in unsightly damage. Occasionally its worth the 
trouble because its unusually sized and you just like that size for some 
reason. But you better like it.
   Steel squares in standard configurations can be had for too little 
money to waste your time over.
If there is very much wrong with an all steel square, toss it regardless.
               yours Scott




-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
264692 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Hey Scott
If I'm not mistaken, you are also bringing in steel carpenter's squares and
such into the discussion? (well, maybe also combination squares, double
squares, die maker's squares (adjustable!), and so many other machinist
squares, knife edge precision squares, architect squares, machine set up
squares, and on.  It might get a bit confusing doing all of these, hehe?)

  I've only ever seen the prick punch / center punch trick done on steel
carpenter squares, never on the rosewood/steel ones?

Claudio

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 12:49 PM, scott grandstaff 
wrote:
264695 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Or, you could simply get some blue masking tape and write 'wrong' on the
un-square ones. 

Seems to work on a number of levels.

Happy to help.

Mick Dowling
Melbourne
Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.
264696 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
ooohhhhuunnnnggg

Ed Minch
264708 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Oh Yeah
  The center punch trick is for flat steel squares you want to keep for 
some reason.
I have one that is thin and light and its a size not usually made. Has 
about a 14" long leg. I like it. Handy for some work. So it was worth 
the trouble to true it up again.

   I got a small Starrett machinist's double square once that was pretty 
far out of square. I love the little 4" size and keep 2 of them handy at 
all times (in case one gets mislaid).
  I do a lot of small work as everyone knows.
   When I scored the second one (yard sale or ebay, don't remember) I 
checked it against my master as always, and it was pretty far off.
  I cleaned it well and checked again and again and no doubt about it, 
it was out at least a full degree.
Hard to believe it got out of the Starrett plant like that, but it did.
  In that case I had to take a really thin warding file and redo the 
bottom of the slot in the head, that the rule rides. Its been good ever 
since.

  I am not very critical precise about a lot of things. But for layout I 
try to be pretty sharp.
  As Roy says, "Plenty enough fugly is going to creep in as you work. 
Try to at least start well."

   Since we were talking the dreaded pegboard last week or so, I took 
some pix.
Here is how to put 348394850489 screwdrivers and pliers into a small space.
Make some planks with holes drilled and drill the back of the plank for 
a couple of heavy pegboard hooks.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard2.
jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard5.
jpg

And here are 6 small squares in 5" of space. This was a recent quickie 
trial using a "scrap 'o woodply" off the floor.    I'll make a cuter one 
later. haahah
  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/pegboard
6.jpg

   yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
264710 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
I use the same rig for my plier and screwdrivers. I’m going to borrow your
square idea though. I have most of mine in the measurement tools drawer in a
divider. But I wanted to have some on the wall rack behind the wood working
bench.  I have two of mine flat against the board and it takes up too much
space. Real estate over the bench is a scarce commodity.  I thought about
stacking them but got hung up on the idea of putting them one behind the other.
Thanks for sharing.

From: scott grandstaff<mailto:scottg@s...>
And here are 6 small squares in 5" of space. This was a recent quickie
trial using a "scrap 'o woodply" off the floor.    I'll make a cuter one
later. haahah
  https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%
2F%2Fusers.snowcrest.net%2Fkitty%2Fsgrandstaff%2Fimages%2Fshop%2520pix%2Fpegboar
d6.jpg&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc8b7fb707d414e89a58f08d55910be1c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636512850792448102&sdata=BR86ZAIdt5slEePQob0LverxCzk8uUVm
KHvlpJ%2BtKXQ%3D&reserved=0

   yours scott

--
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
264711 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Thanks for that Tom - saner words were never spoken.  I really like to build
Windsor chairs because if the 4 legs are at 4 different angles, you can’t tell.
The seat is created by eye so is not symmetrical side to side, or one chair to
the next.  The tip of the seat, the shape of the turnings, the back.   Spindles
are all different sizes (why do we make them with hand tools when you know they
were made on a lathe as soon as one became available?).  - it’s all an inexact
sceince - that’s why I like ‘em.


Ed Minch
264712 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
GG's


I ran across a framing square that had been cut into two pieces.  The apparent
wastefulness puzzled me at first.  Then I realized that perhaps the previous
owner was unsuccessful in truing up this steel square, and thus had cut it to
make two useful straightedges.


They are useful at times.


Now, if I could only figure out how to deal with a stainless-steel square which
is nearly true square but both the stock and the tongue are bent so that they
don't lie flat...


John Ruth

________________________________
From: OldTools  on behalf of Ed Minch 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 2:18:13 PM
To: Thomas Conroy
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] When Good Squares Go Bad

Thanks for that Tom - saner words were never spoken.  I really like to build
Windsor chairs because if the 4 legs are at 4 different angles, you can’t tell.
The seat is created by eye so is not symmetrical side to side, or one chair to
the next.  The tip of the seat, the shape of the turnings, the back.   Spindles
are all different sizes (why do we make them with hand tools when you know they
were made on a lathe as soon as one became available?).  - it’s all an inexact
sceince - that’s why I like ‘em.


Ed Minch




> On Jan 11, 2018, at 8:37 AM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
>
> Its a disease that attacks some people.

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264713 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
> Now, if I could only figure out how to deal with a stainless-steel square
> which is nearly true square but both the stock and the tongue are bent
> so that they don't lie flat...

It sounds like you have a carriage-makers square. Quite a find there...
264731 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2018‑01‑13 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
I would like to say that unless a tool is on its way to being repaired it's on
itscway out the door of my shop. I would be lying. Some of Grandpa's tools, from
both sides of the family, Dad's tools, and father in laws tools have pride of
place just because.
Then there is the framing square that hangs over the bench. I don't use it. It
looks like it was in the tool kit for Noah's boys to play with. It's there
because it has the full set of scales engraved in the sides of the blade.
It's the only one like that I have. Is it straight and square? Don't know. I
never checked. The Stanley from 1973 is still doing fine, and if I don't lend it
out, it should stay that way.

I keep wobbling close to the line but I don't think I crossed over to collector.
Yet.

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