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264253 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑15 Venice Arsenal
GGG

The idea of building a ship in a day - even a small one - has been poking at me
for the last few days.  There are just too many tasks to be completed to fit
them into a day,  So I thought about the Liberty ships of WWII.  There were a
lot of yards building these things, and even though they got it down to about 40
days start to finish, they could say they were completing 3 a day.

So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how long it
took to build one.

Ed Minch
264254 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑12‑15 Re: Venice Arsenal
Ed Minch wrote:
So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how 
long it took to build one.

   I'm with you Ed
  Nobody ever carved a bowspirit in one day. Not even a rib, let alone a 
keel.

   But lots and lots of guys working on lots and lots of ships, sure I 
could see one a day finished.
   yours Scott


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
264256 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑15 Re: Venice Arsenal
On 2017-12-15 4:32 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:
> But lots and lots of guys working on lots and lots of ships, sure I 
> could see one a day finished.
>   yours Scott 

16, 000 workers!

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264257 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
i thought of that Don.  If it took you 40 hours to build a table, could you
build it in an hour with 40 people?

Ed Minch
264258 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
> But lots and lots of guys working on lots and lots of ships, sure I could
see one a day finished.

I think that's correct, and pretty much the intended understanding by the
original poster.  What another galoot brought up -- that this required
large-scale sourcing, transportation and organization of materials and the
infrastructure to support it -- I find boggling.
264259 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
Hi

On 2017-12-15 16:07, Ed Minch wrote:
> i thought of that Don.  If it took you 40 hours to build a table, could you
build it in an hour with 40 people?

If you had 160 production lines you could complete a table every 15 minutes.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
264260 Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
They just used an early version of PERT.....theirs based on experience, 
just like ours.....  hundreds of years later.


      Program evaluation and review technique
      <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&
cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiY0uHQr43YAhVGLmMKHXs8AfEQFggtMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen
.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FProgram_evaluation_and_review_technique&usg=AOvVaw3N7XDK
fXkihR3K8O_t8nY4">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=
2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiY0uHQr43YAhVGLmMKHXs8AfEQFggtMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2F
en.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FProgram_evaluation_and_review_technique&usg=AOvVaw3N7X
DKfXkihR3K8O_t8nY4>

On 12/15/2017 6:17 PM, curt seeliger wrote:
>> But lots and lots of guys working on lots and lots of ships, sure I could
> see one a day finished.
>
> I think that's correct, and pretty much the intended understanding by the
> original poster.  What another galoot brought up -- that this required
> large-scale sourcing, transportation and organization of materials and the
> infrastructure to support it -- I find boggling.
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264261 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
Can't really speak to tables but with a carefully crafted system it is possible
to build, assemble, and ship 360 vehicle doors in a single days production. The
process was broken up into three minute steps. Every three minutes a completed
assembly was packed for shipment.
264262 galoot@l... 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
Quoting Mike Rock :

> They just used an early version of PERT.....theirs based on 
> experience, just like ours.....  hundreds of years later.
>
>
>      Program evaluation and review technique
>      
Can't find the reference but I have read about it in SCA mode.  In 
modern manufacturing terms the _final assembly_ was single piece flow 
(shove the frame down the line and add things as necessary, total time 
down the line pretty quick but each assembly (ship) can be unique).  
What you don't see is all the behind the scenes making the parts for 
the frames which given a standardised design does benefit from multiple 
bodies on the task, and prepping all the decking, masts, ropes, sails, 
and etc. to be ready to go when the hull comes down the line.  You 
don't need to be interchangeable standard parts to be "close enough" on 
a standard design.

Ie the sails are this size so the parts that hold them have to be 
minimum this size, mast diameter will be minimum this diameter so hole 
to hold it will be already minimum diameter, just have to increase a 
little for bigger..  Given matched sets of go-nogo gauges you could be 
pretty close with no actual measuring.

Esther
who after the car accident was amused to figure out that the hospital 
cafeteria was a pretty good single piece flow, order from a reasonably 
large menu and it arrived assembled and delivered just for you less 
than 45 minutes later in a large regional hospital.  No standard meal 
time, no batching by ward.  (would that my employer could do as well!)
264263 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
On 2017-12-15 5:07 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
> If it took you 40 hours to build a table, could you build it in an 
> hour with 40 people?
>
> Ed Minch

That's clearly not what they were doing. they were working on a 
substantial number of ships simultaneously, the end result being they 
were able to produce boats at the rate mentioned.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264264 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
On 2017-12-15 5:17 PM, curt seeliger wrote:
> What another galoot brought up -- that this required
> large-scale sourcing, transportation and organization of materials and the
> infrastructure to support it -- I find boggling.

In one respect in particular, namely wood. But they apparently had their 
own forest. Much of Northern italy would have been forested at that 
time, and I believe quite a bit still is. They have a fairly significant 
furniture industry in Italy.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264265 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
On 2017-12-15 8:01 PM, galoot@l... wrote:
> They just used an early version of PERT.....theirs based on experience


As mentioned in the links provided previously, this facility developed 
over several hundred years - long enough for them to get their processes 
highly efficient.

They were mainly building galleys, ships of a type which had evolved in 
the Mediterranean region over many centuries.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264266 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑16 Re: Venice Arsenal
Thanks Don - my point exactly.  Not enough room around the table - so to speak -
to work on one table, but a few at a time could work on 5 tables.

Ed Minch
264277 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑12‑18 Re: Venice Arsenal
Ed Minch wrote:
> GGG
>
> The idea of building a ship in a day - even a small one - has been poking at
me for the last few days.  There are just too many tasks to be completed to fit
them into a day,  So I thought about the Liberty ships of WWII.  There were a
lot of yards building these things, and even though they got it down to about 40
days start to finish, they could say they were completing 3 a day.
>
> So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how long it
took to build one.

The standard gag is that human gestation is 280, but you can't produce a baby in
a day, even with 280 women.

(Fred Brooks is watching us all)

  BugBear
264278 Andrew Heybey <ath@h...> 2017‑12‑18 Re: Venice Arsenal
On Dec 18, 2017, at 7:40 AM, paul womack  wrote:
> 
> Ed Minch wrote:
>> GGG
>> 
>> The idea of building a ship in a day - even a small one - has been poking at
me for the last few days.  There are just too many tasks to be completed to fit
them into a day,  So I thought about the Liberty ships of WWII.  There were a
lot of yards building these things, and even though they got it down to about 40
days start to finish, they could say they were completing 3 a day.
>> 
>> So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how long it
took to build one.
> 
> The standard gag is that human gestation is 280, but you can't produce a baby
in a day, even with 280 women.
> 
> (Fred Brooks is watching us all)

If you add more women to the project, will the baby come later? ;-)

andrew
264279 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2017‑12‑18 Re: Venice Arsenal
only if they're galoots.
264281 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2017‑12‑18 Re: Venice Arsenal
Paul writes:
>> So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how
long it took to build one.
> The standard gag is that human gestation is 280, but you can't produce a
baby in a day, even with 280 women.
> (Fred Brooks is watching us all)
Thanks for the mythical man month memories. I think it was Twain who said
you can get one boy's work out of one boy, half a boy's work out of two,
and no work at all with three boys.  Judging by the writeups of BAGathons,
Spoonfests, workshops & c., this rule doesn't apply to galoots, at least
not always. Some are pretty productive, at least in a group setting.

curt, in cloudy and surprisingly dry Oregon, and just a few days left to
break into my galootaclaus pkg
264287 Claudio DeLorenzi <admin@d...> 2017‑12‑18 Re: Venice Arsenal
I spent several hours reading about this. I think in context (from
contemporaneous accounts) they were building several vessels at the same
time, with the net effect of one rolling off the assembly line (assembly
canal?) at roughly one per day in frenzy mode (when Muslim invaders were at
the gates, so to speak).  The 'Turks' avec  le Turban and curved sword,
were the motivational posters of the era, as popular ship sculptures.  I
have photos of several examples from the Maritime Museum of Barcelona
somewhere on my hard drive (can't find them right now though).  After the
successful invasion of Spain (recall the history of the Muslim general who
promptly burned his ships upon reaching Spain, telling his sailors they
would either be victorious, or dead, ie no retreat was possible).
 The population of the continent was rather nervous, if not outright
fearful after the slaughter and enslavement of the Spaniards by the
Musselmani.

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