OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

182297 "Frank Sronce" <dilloworks@s...> 2008‑08‑20 3-Minute Dovetails
Galoots,

How's this for fast dovetails?  

http://webmail.aol.com/38491/aolpd/en-us/Suite.aspx

Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182298 "Frank Sronce" <dilloworks@s...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Sorry.  I don't know where that URL came from.  This should get it.

http://popularwoodworking.com/klausz

Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank Sronce" 
To: "oldtools" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:53 AM
Subject: 3-Minute Dovetails

> Galoots,
> 
> How's this for fast dovetails?  
> 
> http://webmail.aol.com/38491/aolpd/en-us/Suite.aspx
> 
> Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182310 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Frank Sronce wrote:
> http://popularwoodworking.com/klausz
That's embarrassing.  I can spend 10x that long on my practice tails, 
and they don't look that good.  I'd rumors about this technique, but 
never looked for it.

Back to building dovetailed boxes to store my crap til they don't look 
like crap.......................... (tm I forget who)

-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
Process Development Engineering
Eppler.Kirk@g... 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182315 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
The blade is bent (twisted) 90 degrees at the end.

On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:

> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?
>
> J
>
> Joseph Sullivan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r...
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Robert
> Hutchins
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:35 PM
> Cc: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
>
> Ray Gardiner wrote:
>> Hi Frank et al.
>>
>> Hah!  now that was  brilliant.  I am suitably impressed!.
> And didya notice he did PINS first?
>
> Bob Hutchins
> Temple, TX, USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
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>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182318 "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
It looks like he is using a saw blade that has been twisted 90 degrees
to cut out the waste. But the twist seems to be in part of the blade
with no teeth? What do you think?

I have tried that with the twist in the middle of the blade and didn't
have much luck. Maybe I need to file the teeth off near the end and
twist it there?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182323 "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
In this case, he already has the vertical part cut so he just slides
the blade down close to the bottom, jabbed it forward and cut
straight across.
>>> "Bill Taggart"  8/20/2008 2:16 PM >>>
I saw Frank do this live in person on a couple of occasions when I lived
in NJ. His shop was about 15-20 minutes from where I lived. He did it
once at a NJ CRAFTS meet and once at a local club meet at his shop.

The the back, oh, 1/3 or so of the saw blade is horizontal with the
teeth pointing towards the side, but vertical like any other normal
blade in the front part. The transition is diagonal, so that the
horizontal part starts out as just a thin bit and then gets wider as you
go towards the rear end of the blade.

He starts the cut with the front part of the blade, cutting normally,
and then when he gets to the bottom, makes a quick push to transition to
the horizontal part of the blade, which he uses to cut across the bottom
of the waste. As I recall, the blades are (were) imported (from Belgium?
Hungary?).

- Bill T.

-----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r...[mailto:oldtools-
bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Waylan Limberg Sent: Wednesday, August 20,
2008 4:57 PM To: joe@j...Cc: oldtools@r...Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re:
3-Minute Dovetails

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Joseph Sullivan  wrote:
> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so
smoothly?
>

According to the second paragraph under the video:

> Frank is using a bowsaw blade that was manufactured with a
> 90=C2=B0 bend
in it. So after
> he saws down to the bottom of the tail or pin he pushes the bent
section of the
> sawblade forward into the cut. That's how he turns the corner so
effortlessly. The
> sawblade isn't made anymore (according to Frank and our research),
but boy is it
> amazing.

Personally, I'd like to see some more information on that blade. It's
hard to see from the video - although for the last couple tails it's
a little clearer if you look real close as he's putting the blade
into position.

--
----
Waylan Limberg waylan@g...------------------------------------------------------
------
------------

182313 Robert Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Ray Gardiner wrote:
> Hi Frank et al.
>
> Hah!  now that was  brilliant.  I am suitably impressed!.
And didya notice he did PINS first?

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX, USA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182314 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?

J

Joseph Sullivan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Robert
Hutchins
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:35 PM
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

Ray Gardiner wrote:
> Hi Frank et al.
>
> Hah!  now that was  brilliant.  I am suitably impressed!.
And didya notice he did PINS first?

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX, USA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182317 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Yes, but it went down a kerf-wide slot and didn't seem to have anywhere to
turn inside the kerf -- let alone to turn flat and cut flat.

J 

 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: James Thompson [mailto:jdthompsonca@s...] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:56 PM
To: joe@j...
Cc: 'Robert Hutchins'; oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

The blade is bent (twisted) 90 degrees at the end.

On Aug 20, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:

> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?
>
> J
>
> Joseph Sullivan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r...
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Robert
> Hutchins
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:35 PM
> Cc: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
>
> Ray Gardiner wrote:
>> Hi Frank et al.
>>
>> Hah!  now that was  brilliant.  I am suitably impressed!.
> And didya notice he did PINS first?
>
> Bob Hutchins
> Temple, TX, USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182326 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
He did it fast and easy....... ( but hey, it's Frank!! .......This is 
not a noun, it's a verb.)
The bent blade had to be a speed help (doesn't look like a narow kerf, 
low set blade either)
 but don't we all do the same thing with a regular blade by laying the 
frame over to it's side? Any narrow blade tracks to 90 degrees in a 
short space whether coping or turning or bandsaw blade for that matter.
 
 If you notice he doesn't go all the way to the bottom to start his 
sideways cut (it's backed up about 1/4" up) and he has to go back and 
clean up that corner where the blade turned. It looks like he's using a 
1/4" wide blade, coping saws are a lot narrower so presumably you can 
cut from less than 1/4" off the bottom of the primary cut with a 
narrower blade.

My favorite part was at the end where he flops the joint face down .... 
twice!!... and it doesn't open up a bit!!!!!
Go Frank!!
   yours, Scott

-- 
******************************* 
   Scott Grandstaff
   Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
   scottg@s...
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182322 Robert Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Joseph Sullivan wrote:
> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?
>   
I've watched that video several times.  If you notice, after he cuts the 
pins free, he goes back in the opposite direction with the saw and 
cleans up the corner that was left when the blade made its turn. 

Not claiming to be anything on the order of a Klausz dt maker, but I 
follow the same approach with a coping saw when making the 'bottom' 
cuts. Coping blades are nowhere near as stiff as the blade on FK's frame 
saw; therefore, cutting a straight line takes practice and a fresh blade.

Finally, I've seen St. Roy use a blade with the 90degree twist on some 
past show (no, I don't remember the episode number).  Seems like there 
was a European (German?) source for that blade some time ago, but it 
Klausz says it's no longer available, I have to believe him.

Bob Hutchins
Temple,TX, USA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182316 "Waylan Limberg" <waylan@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Joseph Sullivan  wrote:
> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?
>

According to the second paragraph under the video:

> Frank is using a bowsaw blade that was manufactured with a 90=B0 bend
> in it. So after he saws down to the bottom of the tail or pin he
> pushes the bent section of the sawblade forward into the cut. That's
> how he turns the corner so effortlessly. The sawblade isn't made
> anymore (according to Frank and our research), but boy is it amazing.

Personally, I'd like to see some more information on that blade. It's
hard to see from the video - although for the last couple tails it's
a little clearer if you look real close as he's putting the blade
into position.

------
Waylan Limberg waylan@g...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182319 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Robert Hutchins wrote:
> And didya notice he did PINS first?

   I used to do tails first.  It made sense if you wanted to gang-saw 
your tails.  The problem is that marking pins from tails means marking 
on end-grain, and that kind of sucks.  Marking the tails from the pins 
is effortless because the grain forces the awl against the side of the 
pin to help you get a truer mark.  Now I do pins first.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182320 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Joseph Sullivan wrote:
> Yes, but it went down a kerf-wide slot and didn't seem to have anywhere to
> turn inside the kerf -- let alone to turn flat and cut flat.

   Stephen Sheppard has a blade like that, which he uses for dovetails, 
except his is bent in the middle so that he uses one saw for everything. 
  He cuts the sides of the tails and pins with the front half of the 
blade, then pushes through for the bottoms.  I don't imagine it would be 
hard to make such a blade... all it would take is a vise and a pair of 
pliers.  I don't know if Stephens is original or homebrew.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182321 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
I saw Frank do this live in person on a couple of occasions when I lived in
NJ.  His shop was about 15-20 minutes from where I lived.  He did it once at
a NJ CRAFTS meet and once at a local club meet at his shop.

The the back, oh, 1/3 or so of the saw blade is horizontal with the teeth
pointing towards the side, but vertical like any other normal blade in the
front part.  The transition is diagonal, so that the horizontal part starts
out as just a thin bit and then gets wider as you go towards the rear end of
the blade.

He starts the cut with the front part of the blade, cutting normally, and
then when he gets to the bottom, makes a quick push to transition to the
horizontal part of the blade, which he uses to cut across the bottom of the
waste.  As I recall, the blades are (were) imported (from Belgium?
Hungary?).

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Waylan Limberg
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:57 PM
To: joe@j...
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Joseph Sullivan
 wrote:
> How did he get his blade to turn and cut the bottoms out so smoothly?
>

According to the second paragraph under the video:

> Frank is using a bowsaw blade that was manufactured with a 90° bend in it.
So after
> he saws down to the bottom of the tail or pin he pushes the bent section
of the
> sawblade forward into the cut. That's how he turns the corner so
effortlessly. The
> sawblade isn't made anymore (according to Frank and our research), but boy
is it
> amazing.

Personally, I'd like to see some more information on that blade. It's
hard to see from the video - although for the last couple tails it's a
little clearer if you look real close as he's putting the blade into
position.

--
----
Waylan Limberg
waylan@g...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182329 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
On Aug 20, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Jeff Thieme wrote:

Really?  My favorite part was just before that when he says, "If it's
too tight, don't force it.  Just get a bigger hammer."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!

Spike Cornelius
PDX
           Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182330 "Bob Passaro" <bobhp@e...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
That twisted saw blade is brilliant. Yeah, I wonder if you could make
a passable one of those for a bow saw from an old piece of 1/4 or 3/16
band saw blade or something. Maybe too thick a kerf, though? Might be
worth a try.

I had a woodworking teacher (Gary Rogowski) who introduced dovetails
to students with something he called the 5-minute dovetail -- just one
tail and a couple half pins. It was the same kind of thing. Do it
quick, don't fuss too much over perfection, no chisel work. Just get
your head around how the joint comes together, how you cut it and get
some practice sawing. Bang it together. If it splits, toss it in the
firewood pile and try again.

Not to take anything away from FK -- that was a great demo, for sure.
But ... I think any of you out there could be doing this with a couple
hours of practice -- maybe you won't be doing them in THREE minutes,
maybe the joint won't go together first try or maybe it'll be a bit
loose. But this isn't as hard or far off as some might think.

Mill up a few boards -- and don't start with hard maple -- use pine (I
think that's what FK was using, too) or alder or something that's soft
and forgiving and will squeeze together when you bang it home.

If you want to learn dovetails, give it a try!! No pressure. Don't
start with something you're going to sweat over. Bang together a box
to keep old plane parts or those chisels you're never going to get
around to fixing up -- or a flower box. Whatever. Failure will happen.
Don't worry about it. Try again.

-- Bob in Eugene
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182328 "Jeff Thieme" <jeff.galoot@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Scott from Happy Camp writes:

> My favorite part was at the end where he flops the joint face down ....
> twice!!... and it doesn't open up a bit!!!!!
> Go Frank!!
>  yours, Scott


Really?  My favorite part was just before that when he says, "If it's
too tight, don't force it.  Just get a bigger hammer."

~Jeff
near Memphis, TN
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182341 "Frank Filippone" <red735i@e...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Great picture... really explains the issue..... the mistake is the that
both ends of the blade are filed rip.... I think the closer part needs
to be filed crosscut... for doing the bottom of the pins and
tails...........

If you took a regular old 1/4 inch blade, and "bent it permanently" at
90 degrees, you would have it, at least a practice one....... Do you
apply heat so that the steel takes the bend permanently? I think so....

Anyone got a 1/4 inch hack saw blade and a forge? This is not
rocket science ( to get one that works.... one that works well, may
require a PHD.)

BTW, a coping saw blade might work as well..... if it turns on its own
width it can be used... ....but it is not going to be fast...

I have seen Frank do the DT thing.... I even helped mill the wood one
time for him. He is very particular about what kind of wood..... Soft
pine.... If you made about 2000- 4000 DT a weekend for 10 years, as FK
has done, you would be good at it too......

I have a teacher that got to spend the day with him..... he said the guy
was amazing...... lots of skills hidden away to be brought out when
needed..... But then the teacher got to visit Garrett Hack..... and Hack
was even more amazing.....

Gotta hand it to these old timers.... they know their business.......

Frank Filippone red735i@e...

   Here's a link to the page of Steven Shepherd's blog where he shows
   his bent blade bowsaw.

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p
M.Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182337 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
I'd love to see ne, or better yet, have one to play with.

Joe

 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Taggart [mailto:wtaggart@c...] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:58 PM
To: joe@j...; 'James Thompson'
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

The blade does not need to turn or twist in the kerf.  The transition from
vertical to horizontal is not immediate - it is a diagonal transition so
that the leading end of the horizontal plane of the blade is sort of like
the very tip of a keyhole or pad saw - very thin - then the horizontal plane
widens as you push the saw forward - so as you push the saw forward you stop
making a vertical kerf and start making a horizontal kerf.

Kinda hard to describe, but if you saw the blade up close, you'd see how it
works.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Joseph
Sullivan
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:58 PM
To: 'James Thompson'
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

Yes, but it went down a kerf-wide slot and didn't seem to have anywhere to
turn inside the kerf -- let alone to turn flat and cut flat.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182342 "Bob Passaro" <bobhp@e...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
I earlier mentioned using a piece of narrow bandsaw blade to make one of
these and Frank tosses out some other suggestions:

> If you took a regular old 1/4 inch blade, and "bent it permanently" at
> 90 degrees, you would have it, at least a practice one <> a
> coping saw blade might work as well <>

I was getting all excited to about the idea on that "fullchisel" blog
that Mike linked to that you could use ONE saw for BOTH cuts -- but then
I calmed down and thought a little harder about it.

The thing about using a little backsaw to cut dovetails is that the cut
stays straight because the blade is wide -- obviously, it's wider than
the cut is deep. That's why these saws typically have very little set,
too -- so they cut straight. But cutting a straight line with a coping
saw or even a 1/4 wide blade on, say, a 3/4 inch deep cut is dicier.

In fact, Klauz uses a bow saw with a blade that looks an inch and a half
wide or so to make his rip cuts. Then he switches saws for the
crosscuts. It's still cool in that he can remove most of the waste, to
the line, in one quick crosscut.

But one saw to do both? I don't know how effective it would be. Unless
you had the vertical part of the blade very wide, the twist very
narrow and then the crosscut part a little wider than that. Ah, that's
getting too complicated for me. OK, my excitement has worn off a
little. Maybe I'll just go back to my old, comfortable (and slower)
way of cutting these.

-- Bob in Eugene
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182332 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Roy got the twisted saw blade after having Frank as a guest on his show.
Frank did the 90-second dovetail routine and Roy was impressed enough to get
one of those blades for himself.

When I visted Frank's shop in NJ those years ago, it was shortly after he
had done the show with Roy.  We asked him how it went; he replied, "He sure
bleeds a lot."

Yup.  That's Roy.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----

Finally, I've seen St. Roy use a blade with the 90degree twist on some
past show (no, I don't remember the episode number).  Seems like there
was a European (German?) source for that blade some time ago, but it
Klausz says it's no longer available, I have to believe him.

Bob Hutchins
Temple,TX, USA
\

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182333 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
The blade does not need to turn or twist in the kerf.  The transition from
vertical to horizontal is not immediate - it is a diagonal transition so
that the leading end of the horizontal plane of the blade is sort of like
the very tip of a keyhole or pad saw - very thin - then the horizontal plane
widens as you push the saw forward - so as you push the saw forward you stop
making a vertical kerf and start making a horizontal kerf.

Kinda hard to describe, but if you saw the blade up close, you'd see how it
works.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Joseph
Sullivan
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:58 PM
To: 'James Thompson'
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

Yes, but it went down a kerf-wide slot and didn't seem to have anywhere to
turn inside the kerf -- let alone to turn flat and cut flat.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182334 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
By the way, he tells the tale that at 15, he became an apprentice to his
father.  He says that on that day, he "lost a father and gained a master."
He built packing crates, that were held together with dovetails.  He had to
make so many per day and was paid per piece.  That's how he learned how to
crank out functioning dovetails quickly.  You'll note that his 3-minute
dovetails are not the most lovely things and certainly not fine-furniture
grade, but they do function.  When he's doing furniture grade dovetails he
does it a bit differently and more slowly, as you can see in his "dovetail a
drawer" video.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Kirk Eppler
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 3:00 PM
Cc: oldtools
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails

Frank Sronce wrote:
> http://popularwoodworking.com/klausz
That's embarrassing.  I can spend 10x that long on my practice tails,
and they don't look that good.  I'd rumors about this technique, but
never looked for it.

Back to building dovetailed boxes to store my crap til they don't look
like crap.......................... (tm I forget who)

--
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
Process Development Engineering
Eppler.Kirk@g...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182335 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
scott grandstaff wrote:
> If you notice he doesn't go all the way to the bottom to start his 
> sideways cut (it's backed up about 1/4" up) and he has to go back and 
> clean up that corner where the blade turned.

   I think that was just on the tails.  The blade is bent 90 degrees, 
and the transition between the bottom and sides of the waste between the 
pin is less than 90 degrees, so he had to start early so it wouldn't cut 
below the line.  When cutting the pins he was able to blast through 
right from the bottom of the cut.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182336 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑20 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Bob Passaro wrote:
> That twisted saw blade is brilliant.

   Here's a link to the page of Steven Shepherd's blog where he shows
   his bent blade bowsaw.

http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p
M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182343 "Frank Filippone" <red735i@e...> 2008‑08‑20 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
And waste all that time?

Seriously, Frank's abilities are pretty phenomenal..... The use a  new/old
tool is he interesting part.... after all, how fast can one cut a DT?
Takes me a LONG time........

Frank Filippone
red735i@e...

OK, my excitement has worn off a
little. Maybe I'll just go back to my old, comfortable (and slower)
way of cutting these.

-- Bob in Eugene

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182302 "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Hi Frank et al.

Hah!  now that was  brilliant.  I am suitably impressed!.

Regards
Ray

On 8/20/2008, "Frank Sronce"  wrote:

>Sorry.  I don't know where that URL came from.  This should get it.
>
>http://popularwoodworking.com/klausz
>
>Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182347 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Frank Filippone wrote:
> Great picture... really explains the issue.....  the mistake is the that
> both ends of the blade are filed rip.... I think the closer part needs to be
> filed crosscut... for doing the bottom of the pins and tails...........

   Actually, I think that was an error in the blog.  He calls it a 
'rip-crosscut' so I imagine that the front of the blade is filed rip and 
the back end of the blade (after the twist) is filed cross-cut.

> If you took a regular old 1/4 inch  blade, and "bent it permanently" at 90
> degrees, you would have it, at least a practice one.......
> Do you apply heat so that the steel takes the bend permanently?  I think
> so....

   It would depend on the steel.  Honestly, saw steel is not hard.  It 
will take a bend and keep it.  The problem will be getting that fold and 
keeping the blade straight.  Easiest would be to use a bending brake to 
fold it over then put the blade under tension and pull it straight.  It 
might take a few tries to get it right.  Stephen says he's made several, 
and he's a 19th century re-enactor so it's unlikely that there are any 
high-tech tools involved in making the blades.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182348 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
paul womack wrote:
> A slim knife with a steep bevel does it well enough.

   The problem with a knife is that you can trim a sliver (or chunk) off 
of the tails in the process.  Also, the endgrain needs to be pretty 
smooth for even a heavy knife-mark to be nicely visible.  If you're 
going to plane the ends of the tails after the fact, then it seems 
wasted effort to agonize over the ends of the boards before cutting the 
joint.
   But hey, everybody's got to find their own way.

M.Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182355 "Robert A. Weber" <raweber@m...> 2008‑08‑21 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Kirk wrote:
: Back to building dovetailed boxes to store my crap til they don't look
: like crap.......................... (tm I forget who)

Whether or not you can picture Esther saying "Crap" she was indeed the
one who popularized that quote here on the porch.

Rob Weber Peoria, IL

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182344 "Jeff Gorman" <amgron@c...> 2008‑08‑21 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
:  -----Original Message-----
:  From: oldtools-bounces@r...
:  [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...]On Behalf Of Metalworker
:  Mike
:  Sent: 20 August 2008 22:03
:  To: Robert Hutchins
:  Cc: oldtools@r...
:  Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetail

:  .........................The problem is that marking pins from tails
means marking
:  on end-grain, and that kind of sucks.

One old dodge is, having cut the kerfs for the sockets (and before chopping
them out), the tail piece is offered to the pin bearer and the tip of the
tenon saw is run along each kerf, thus outlining the pin.

I have tried it, but wouldn't use if for other than the kind of job that
Klaus used his d'tails for; some hard-pressed tradesmen might have made good
use of it..

Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
http://www.amgron.clara.net

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322)
Database version: 5.10520e
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182354 Brian Welch <brian_welch@h...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
> We recently had a thread on old saws and someone mentioned that all 
> saws were filed rip a while back.  Perhaps for these purposes, a full 
> rip blade would be adequate.

I have seen FK do his DT routine (the longer 5 minute version where he 
uses a backsaw) and he only uses a rip backsaw.  I asked him why he only 
used a rip backsaw and he said "it works, doesn't it?"  I didn't have an 
answer to that one and in fact I now pretty much only use a rip backsaw 
for most things.  It is the only really sharp backsaw I have (and the only 
saw I ever sharpened myself--gotta get back to saw sharpening, I guess) 
but like Frank said, it does the trick for most things. 

It is worth noting (while probably obvious to all of you) that the first 
10 seconds of the video is FK using a marking gauge on both boards.  If 
you ignore that part, it looks like he is doing these dovetails 
completelty freehand, but that is a little misleading. Having a line to 
cut to is a quick step that makes a huge difference.

Brian Welch
Worcester, MA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182346 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Metalworker Mike wrote:
> Robert Hutchins wrote:
>> And didya notice he did PINS first?
> 
>   I used to do tails first.  It made sense if you wanted to gang-saw 
> your tails.  The problem is that marking pins from tails means marking 
> on end-grain, and that kind of sucks.

A slim knife with a steep bevel does it well enough.

If the knife has a low bevel, the mark is too narrow
to see well - I learnt this from the excellent mark
left by a tite-mark gauge.

For shoulders, a low bevel works well, since the cut
is deep enough for the cut to have width.

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182370 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
galoot@l... wrote:
> In the interest of declining unearned credit, it is merely a quote I 
> remembered from someone else in the early days..
> I requoted a year or two ago to encourage someone beating  himself up 
> on his first attempts.
>
> Someone who wants to grep through a text version of the archive might 
> resurrect the original.
>
The first appearance of "look like crap" in the modern archives is 
credit to one Esther Heller on Jan 29, 1997
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=12680#message

'I picked up a suggestion a while back from I don't remember where on 
dovetails that went something like "make a bunch of boxes to hold crap
until the boxes don't look like crap, then start on drawers".'

-- 
Kirk Eppler, screaming through the archives between meetings.
Process Development Engineering
Eppler.Kirk@g... 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182349 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Metalworker Mike wrote:
> paul womack wrote:
>> A slim knife with a steep bevel does it well enough.
> 
>   The problem with a knife is that you can trim a sliver (or chunk) off 
> of the tails in the process.  Also, the endgrain needs to be pretty 
> smooth for even a heavy knife-mark to be nicely visible.  If you're 
> going to plane the ends of the tails after the fact, then it seems 
> wasted effort to agonize over the ends of the boards before cutting the 
> joint.

Yes - but I follow Kirby in this regard. The ends
of both work pieces are short to length and square.
Final finish is by planing the faces, not the tails.

This is the only accurate way to make a dovetailed
item of a known finished exterior size.

Hence my endgrain is planed, and ready for marking.

I guess this also demonstrates that many working
practice decisions cannot be taken in isolation.

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182360 "Bruce Lambert" <blambertjr@v...> 2008‑08‑21 RE: 3-Minute Dovetails
I just started reading Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking.  He stated in the book
that he primarily used the bow saw and he would re-file any cross-cut blade
he got into a rip cut.  He said it cut faster in either direction.

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Brian Welch
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:20 AM
To: ruby@m...
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] 3-Minute Dovetails

> We recently had a thread on old saws and someone mentioned that all 
> saws were filed rip a while back.  Perhaps for these purposes, a full 
> rip blade would be adequate.

I have seen FK do his DT routine (the longer 5 minute version where he 
uses a backsaw) and he only uses a rip backsaw.  I asked him why he only 
used a rip backsaw and he said "it works, doesn't it?"  I didn't have an 
answer to that one and in fact I now pretty much only use a rip backsaw 
for most things.  It is the only really sharp backsaw I have (and the only 
saw I ever sharpened myself--gotta get back to saw sharpening, I guess) 
but like Frank said, it does the trick for most things. 

It is worth noting (while probably obvious to all of you) that the first 
10 seconds of the video is FK using a marking gauge on both boards.  If 
you ignore that part, it looks like he is doing these dovetails 
completelty freehand, but that is a little misleading. Having a line to 
cut to is a quick step that makes a huge difference.

Brian Welch
Worcester, MA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182362 galoot@l... 2008‑08‑21 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Quoting "Robert A. Weber" :

> Kirk wrote:
>
> : Back to building dovetailed boxes to store my crap til they don't
look
> : like crap.......................... (tm I forget who)
>
> Whether or not you can picture Esther saying "Crap" she was indeed
the
> one who popularized that quote here on the porch.

In the interest of declining unearned credit, it is merely
a quote I remembered from someone else in the early days..
I requoted a year or two ago to encourage someone beating
himself up on his first attempts.

Someone who wants to grep through a text version of the archive might 
resurrect the original.

Esther

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182381 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Galoots:

Jeff Thieme wrote:

  >My favorite part was just before that when he says, "If it's too
  >tight, don't force it. Just get a bigger hammer."<

My boss says he expects any time to hear they have excavated a chariot
repair shop in Pompeii with this written on the wall.

Tom Conroy San Francisco


------------------------------------------------------------------------

182388 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
>  but the arguments against using a rip saw for cross-cutting is that
>  it leaves a rough cut in many woods.

Man is that ever right! Every crosscut makes a rough surface. Never saw
a hand crosscut that didn't to some degree. And some a ...whole... lot
more rough than others, but faaaast!

 Crosscuts, smooth or fast, you get to pick! That's the beauty of it.
 yours, Scott


*******************************
   Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s...
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182382 Metalworker Mike <metalworker.mike@g...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Bruce Lambert wrote:
> I just started reading Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking.  He stated in the book
> that he primarily used the bow saw and he would re-file any cross-cut blade
> he got into a rip cut.  He said it cut faster in either direction.

   He certainly said that, and no doubt he did that, but the arguments 
against using a rip saw for cross-cutting is that it leaves a rough cut 
in many woods.  In the well-dried furniture-grade hardwoods that Frid 
used it was probably just fine, especially when you consider that Frid 
sanded everything he could get his hands on.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182391 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2008‑08‑21 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
On Aug 21, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Michele Minch wrote:

>
>
> We recently had a thread on old saws and someone mentioned that all 
> saws were filed rip a while back.

	And for the record, a few of us don't think that is correct.

Regards,
Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182394 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2008‑08‑21 RE: 3-Minute Dovetails
-----Original Message-----
Ed Minch sed:

> We recently had a thread on old saws and someone mentioned that all
> saws were filed rip a while back.

To which Steve Reynolds sed:

	> And for the record, a few of us don't think that is correct.

I'm thinking that might have come from my attendance at the Colonial
Williamsburg WW conference in January.  I reported that Mack Headley, master
cabinetmaker at Colonial Wmsbg (I'm pretty sure it was Mack who said this,
but it might have been one of the veneer-making guys, because he did a talk
about saws) said that all of the saws they had found from that period
(early-ish/mid-ish 18th Century - pre-American Revolution to Revolutionary
era) were filed rip - at least from the evidence they had found - I think
they also were talking about Benjamin Seaton's tool chest somewhere in
there.

Anyhow, I don't think they meant to imply, and I did not mean to imply that
there were no saws filed crosscut; they just said that they had found
evidence only for saws made and filed rip - but of various TPI.  A fine rip,
very sharp, will get a pretty clean cut in dried hardwood, as they
demonstrated for us.

- Billy T.
- Checking the C.W. website weekly to catch when the sign-up for next
January's WW conference opens up

------------------------------------------------------------------------

182406 "Ellis, Thomas" <thomas_ellis@r...> 2008‑08‑22 RE: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
This is becoming an interesting topic, not - for once - because it's
about pins or tails first, but because it gets into the different ways
of thinking and the assumptions we make. For example, John talks here
about the margin of error for the thickness of a marking gauge pin. But
I never use a marking gauge for this, because a cutting gauge - with a
blade rather than a pin - doesn't have that problem.

Also, the point with the Kirby, et.al. approach is that it's much easier
to plane the faces of the sides than the end grain of the front and back
(with drawers), plus, if you know you're not going to plane end grain,
you can cut the length of the front to exactly match the width of the
opening, and then plane down to meet it. The result - when done
correctly - is less effort to reach a precise result.

Another assumption is that the guage - whichever it is -should exactly
match the thickness of a board. But the Kirby method - as several have
pointed out - is to inentionally set the gauge just a tad narrower,
intentionally creating a recessed pin-end.

We seem to have several instances here of having trouble hearing what
someone else is saying, because of the individual assumptions we make
about the "self-evident" approach to take. Not any right or wrong here,
just - as I said - veryinteresting, suggesting to me, anyway, to be more
aware of, and question, the assumptions I make.

Tom Ellis Dayton, OH
> -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r...> [mailto:oldtools-
> bounces@r...] On Behalf Of> John Manners Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008
> 5:07 AM To: paul womack; metalworker.mike@g...
> Cc: oldtools@r... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
>> Paul Womack writes:
>> > Yes - but I follow Kirby in this regard. The ends
> > of both work pieces are short to length and square. Final finish is
> > by planing the faces, not the tails.
> >
> > This is the only accurate way to make a dovetailed item of a known
> > finished exterior size.
>> Is falling short all round by half the thickness of a gauge> pin
>> within the acceptable parameters of accuracy? If not,> allow an
>> extra> 1/16th" which seems to be the standard thickness for> marking-
>> gauge pins. Cut the boards plumb and square (naturally) to final
>> length,> with or without the extra 1/16". Set the gauge to the
>> thickness of one board by holding the> pin against one side of it and
>> pushing the fence along the> stock until it> firmly touches the other
>> side, trapping the thickness of the> board between the fence and pin.
>> Lightly gauge both sides of the end> of the board to be joined to the
>> one from which the gauge was> set and so on around the entire box.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-

182402 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2008‑08‑22 Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Steve Reynolds wrote:
> 
> On Aug 21, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Michele Minch wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> We recently had a thread on old saws and someone mentioned that all 
>> saws were filed rip a while back.
> 
>     And for the record, a few of us don't think that is correct.

Certainly ALL the old books I list here:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

have extensive commentaries on cross cut teeth.

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182403 "John Manners" <jmanners@p...> 2008‑08‑22 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Jeff Gorman writes:

> One old dodge is, having cut the kerfs for the sockets (and before
> chopping them out), the tail piece is offered to the pin bearer
> and the tip of the tenon saw is run along each kerf, thus
> outlining the pin.

Ooops! I thought that Jeff's description of the method of cutting the
pins is the conventional method. I admit to then scratching in my
vertical lines for the pins down to the gauge mark with my chisel
although those of my acquaintance with the sharper eye and the steadier
hand don't bother to do so and accuse me of wasting time. Joints seem to
fit together O.K. Saw and chisel need to be sharp, though. Tend to think
that chopping out the waste bits is somewhat quicker than sawing them
out. Depends how they're hanging at the time, I suppose.

Regards from Brisbane,

John Manners
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182404 "John Manners" <jmanners@p...> 2008‑08‑22 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Paul Womack writes:

> Yes - but I follow Kirby in this regard. The ends of both work pieces
> are short to length and square. Final finish is by planing the faces,
> not the tails.
>
> This is the only accurate way to make a dovetailed item of a known
> finished exterior size.

Is falling short all round by half the thickness of a gauge pin within
the acceptable parameters of accuracy? If not, allow an extra
1/16th" which seems to be the standard thickness for marking-gauge pins.

Cut the boards plumb and square (naturally) to final length, with or
without the extra 1/16".

Set the gauge to the thickness of one board by holding the pin against
one side of it and pushing the fence along the stock until it firmly
touches the other side, trapping the thickness of the board between the
fence and pin. Lightly gauge both sides of the end of the board to be
joined to the one from which the gauge was set and so on around the
entire box.

Measure (not really all that necessary if one first cuts tails and marks
pin top cuts from the kerfs), mark tail cuts with bevel and, in due
course, pin cuts with square to gauge lines, using chisel in the
approved manner to mark face and reverse face lines. Saw, saw, chop,
chop - whacko! Dovetails and pins ready to embrace each other. Mallety-
mallet together, praying, "What this man has joined together let no man
put asunder ."

Here we find, unless we used a not-as-sharp-as-she-could-be chisel (more
important than some persons think), a happy union of four boards (with
or without tops and bottoms) with the ends of dovetails and pins
protruding all round by 1/32" or something very near.

Plane away from each end towards the middle of each board to plane down
projecting ends of dovetails and pins and we find ourselves "inaccurate"
by a plane shaving all round. This "evil" may be overcome by dressing
the outside of the boards to their final finish first and planing along
the tops of the protrusions from either end, but a crosswise plane-swipe
towards the end of one of the boards is likely to make its unwelcome
appearance together with a few sweat and finger marks and a bit of dirt
or whatever from the bench. Final finish is best left to last.

Regards from Brisbane,

John Manners
------------------------------------------------------------------------

182476 "John Manners" <jmanners@p...> 2008‑08‑25 Re: Re: 3-Minute Dovetails
Tom Ellis writes:

This is becoming an interesting topic, not - for once - because it's
about pins or tails first, but because it gets into the different ways
of thinking and the assumptions we make. For example, John talks here
about the margin of error for the thickness of a marking gauge pin. But
I never use a marking gauge for this, because a cutting gauge - with a
blade rather than a pin - doesn't have that problem.

A cutting gauge has its bevel towards the fence of the gauge (at least,
all of mine have). When the gauge is set by trapping a board through its
thickness between the fence and the cutter, as distinct from a pin, one
has the whole thickness of the cutter, not half of its thickness as in
the case of a pin, to be taken into consideration where a relatively
high degree of accuracy is desired. Using pin or cutter, it makes little
difference, in this way, one still finishes up with the ends of the
tails and pins proud of the work. As I stated previously, there is
obtained a union of boards with the ends of dovetails and pins
protruding all round by 1/32" (if a pin is used to mark) or the
thickness of a cutting gauge (usually a full 1/16") or something very
near. The "something very near" occurs because few boards are absolutely
consistent throughout in their thickness but the gauge is set, using the
board's thickness at any convenient place, without bothering to take
this into account. Planing the endgrain of tails and pins works O.K.
because of the inherent support given by the joint.

Regards from Brisbane,

John Manners
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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