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181858 | Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> | 2008‑08‑03 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
On Aug 3, 2008, at 9:26 AM, jamesbrown wrote: I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh the SUCKAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Spike Cornelius PDX Crazy for Shavings ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181862 | "Mike Wenzloff" <mwenz@w...> | 2008‑08‑03 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
> I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00: Good grab, James! If it is George Bishop, it is a *very* early one. It sure doesn't look like any American George Bishop saw I have seen. There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!). The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845): http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg As well as a couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that I only have handle images of and no maker's names. Me thinks it is English. Take care, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181856 | "jamesbrown" <james.brown9@m...> | 2008‑08‑03 | Old saw with blank medallion |
I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563539.jpg I was especially intrigued by the lack of any stamping on the large, 1 inch medallion: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563534.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563532.jpg Upon cleaning by electrolysis, the blade was found to have a small stamped mark: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563524.jpg The name appears to be either G. Bishop (Geo. Bishop?) or C. Bishop; the initial is incomplete. The blade also has the faint remnant of a nib: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563527.jpg I'm curious as to whether the medallion has had any stamping removed, or if some early saws came with blank medallions. I also welcome any thoughts as to whether this is in fact from Geo. Bishop, or some other maker. James in Keokuk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181859 | Charlie Driggs <cdinde@v...> | 2008‑08‑03 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
I hate to think it, but that saw looks a bit overcleaned to me per the photo. That person didn't take a belt sandah to it, did he? A Bishop saw with no medallion markings and a minimal etch, yet very clean looking -- I don't know whether that's a known hallmark of those saws, and I don't have Erv's book to check. Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181870 | "Wiktor A. Kuc" <wiktor@w...> | 2008‑08‑03 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
Ray, I am interested in finding more about Priest & Co. Can you point me to any source material? Wiktor A. Kuc Albuquerque, NM 505-401-6020 www.wkFineTools.com www.wkTools.com -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 8:12 PM To: oldtools@r... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion Hi Mike, & GG's The acid etching info, was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in TATHS, reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:- http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-Simon1.a sp Medallion Trivia I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co. The makers of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when they didn't want to use their own medallion. Priest & Co, registered the design as a trademark. Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks only apply to the medallion not the saw? Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put a blank medallion on a saw, Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago. Either way it's an interesting find. Nice one James! Regards Ray > >There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker >beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well >could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at >least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!). > >The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845): >http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg >As well as a couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that >I only have handle images of and no maker's names. > >Me thinks it is English. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181868 | "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> | 2008‑08‑03 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
Based on the shape and location of the handle, I'd submit (SWAG) that it's English and early-mid 1800's. Very, very nice old saw. And for one U.S. dollar? Sheesh. Not even. As if. - Bill T. -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of jamesbrown Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 12:26 PM To: oldtools Subject: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion I found this saw yesterday at a flea market, and bought it for $1.00: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563539.jpg I was especially intrigued by the lack of any stamping on the large, 1 inch medallion: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563534.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563532.jpg Upon cleaning by electrolysis, the blade was found to have a small stamped mark: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563524.jpg The name appears to be either G. Bishop (Geo. Bishop?) or C. Bishop; the initial is incomplete. The blade also has the faint remnant of a nib: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL377/1006393/17511109/328563527.jpg I'm curious as to whether the medallion has had any stamping removed, or if some early saws came with blank medallions. I also welcome any thoughts as to whether this is in fact from Geo. Bishop, or some other maker. James in Keokuk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181880 | "jamesbrown" <james.brown9@m...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Thanks to all who responded, both online and off. The general consensus is: 1. The saw is most likely English, based on the London Style handle. 2. Pre-1850 time period, perhaps slightly earlier. 3. Blank medallions are seen on early British saws. 4. Sheffield makers Weldon & Carr Bishop are listed as working in the late 1700s to early 1800s. Perhaps C. Bishop is Carr Bishop. In any case, I'm glad I bought this saw instead of the recent-make Stanley he had for $3.00. James in Keokuk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181879 | Anthony Seo <tonyseo@p...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
At 10:11 PM 8/3/2008, Ray Gardiner wrote: >Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put >a blank medallion on a saw, Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago. I have (probably still do but as to where is anyone's guess) a backsaw that has a blank medallion. I did find a picture http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/earlysaws/bsaw4.jpg I'm thinking it's a Tillotson but the mark is kind of eroded. I've also seen at least one handsaw of similar vintage that had a blank medallion. Tony Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic http://www.myspace.com/tonyseomusic ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181881 | "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> | 2008‑08‑04 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
-----Original Message----- At 10:11 PM 8/3/2008, Ray Gardiner wrote: >Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put >a blank medallion on a saw To hold the handle on? - Bill T. - Just say (tm PL), the idea of "advertising" on the medallion came along later... - p.p.s. - wondering what the function of all that artwork on those later medallions and fancy etches is ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181869 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Hi Mike, & GG's The acid etching info, was from a 2005 article by Simon Barley in TATHS, reproduced on Wiktor's amazing site at:- http://www.wkfinetools.com/cc_how/saws/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching- Simon1.asp Medallion Trivia I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co. The makers of the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when they didn't want to use their own medallion. Priest & Co, registered the design as a trademark. Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade marks only apply to the medallion not the saw? Blank Medallions? I can't think of any reason why a manufacturer would put a blank medallion on a saw, Maybe it's been re-handled some time ago. Either way it's an interesting find. Nice one James! Regards Ray > >There are also listings for an English George Bishop saw maker >beginning in 1781. And while I don't think the saw is that old, it well >could be from before the 1850 time frame of etching the saw plate (at >least by S&J according to Ray Gardiner--thanks for that info, Ray!). > >The handle is reminiscent of Disston's early No.8 (circa 1845): >http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/8page/1845no8h.jpg As well as a >couple early English saws (closer in match, actually) that I only have >handle images of and no maker's names. > >Me thinks it is English. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181871 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑04 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
Hi Wiktor, Not really, the only source material I have is Trade Directory Listings, Kelly's 1893 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders & saw screw makers 60 Peacroft White 1901 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders, saw screw manufacturers casters of mill brasses, moulds &c Peacroft Brass Works 60 Solly Street White's 1919 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders 56 Eyre Lane Kelly's 1925 PRIEST =09(& Co.) brassfounders =0956 Eyre Lane Looks like they were in business in Sheffield from 1890's to the 1920's at least. The trade mark info came from Kelly's 1901 directory. You might be onto something here, if you could find company records or accounts, you would, I suspect get a good deal of information on Sheffield tool makers for that period. .... Like most, I have several "Warranted Superior" saws ,and often wonder who really made them. I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and Ted Priest. Regards Ray On 8/4/2008, "Wiktor A. Kuc" |
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181872 | "Peter Evans" <peterrevans@o...> | 2008‑08‑04 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
Simon Barley has done research on the companies that produced the Sheffield transfers for etching; and this provides some evidence on who was making what for whom. The online reference is http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS/saws/z_reading/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-S imon2.asp, and I guess there is a lot more to be analysed. Others may have also done research in this area. Cheers Peter -----Original Message----- From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ray Gardiner Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 1:02 PM To: oldtools@r... Subject: RE: [OldTools] Old saw with blank medallion Hi Wiktor, Not really, the only source material I have is Trade Directory Listings, Kelly's 1893 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders & saw screw makers 60 Peacroft White 1901 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders, saw screw manufacturers casters of mill brasses, moulds &c Peacroft Brass Works 60 Solly Street White's 1919 PRIEST (& Co.) brass founders 56 Eyre Lane Kelly's 1925 PRIEST (& Co.) brassfounders 56 Eyre Lane Looks like they were in business in Sheffield from 1890's to the 1920's at least. The trade mark info came from Kelly's 1901 directory. You might be onto something here, if you could find company records or accounts, you would, I suspect get a good deal of information on Sheffield tool makers for that period. .... Like most, I have several "Warranted Superior" saws ,and often wonder who really made them. I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and Ted Priest. Regards Ray On 8/4/2008, "Wiktor A. Kuc" |
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181873 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑04 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
Esteemed GG's > >I was hoping that their names might have been Warren Priest and >Ted Priest. > |
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181891 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
On Aug 3, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Ray Gardiner wrote: > Medallion Trivia > I have been looking at Medallions, and notice that Priest & Co. The > makers of > the "Warranted Superior" the screws that everyone seemed to use when > they > didn't want to use their own medallion. Priest & Co, registered the > design > as a trademark. Does that mean manufacturers medallions as trade > marks only > apply to the medallion not the saw? Ray, I don't think I'm following. Are you saying that one company (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all the sawnuts so marked? Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181904 | "genfurn" <genfurn@u...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Oooooh, that was sneaky....... Bruce Z. Kearney, MO > - Bill T. > - Just say (tm PL), the idea of "advertising" on the medallion came > along > later... > - p.p.s. - wondering what the function of all that artwork on those > later > medallions and fancy etches is ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181903 | Don McConnell <DGMcConnell@c...> | 2008‑08‑04 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Steve Reynolds wrote: > Ray, I don't think I'm following. Are you saying that one >company (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and >made all the sawnuts so marked? > Thought I'd chime in here, as I had provided some relevant information on this topic a little over a year ago (message # 169321 in the archives). I now have a little additional information, and thought I'd post the amended information as well as provide links to a couple of images which may shed some light on the subject. Just so we're clear, I believe Ray is referring to the British "Warranted Superior" saw medallions which have the British Royal Coat of Arms in the center. And, yes it was the registered trade mark of, not one, but two different firms in succession. More on that in a moment, but I first wanted to outline the two over- lapping successions of firms which are related to this trade mark. The first succession goes something like this, as far as I've been able to reconstruct at present: INGLE & TRICKETT Sheffield <- 1822 - 1847 24 West Street [1822 - 1825] 17 Rockingham Street [1828 - 1837] 51 Rockingham Street [1839 - 1847] ("Late Greaves and Ingle") INGLE, JOSHUA Sheffield 1849 -> 51 Rockingham Street SMITH & CO., HENRY Sheffield <- 1852 - 1862 -> 51 Rockingham Street ("Late Ingle & Trickett") SMITH, WILLIAM HENRY Sheffield <- 1879 - 1881 -> 51 Rockingham Street These firms are listed as brass founders throughout, with the first mention of the making of saw screws in 1833. They were also listed as german silver founders beginning in 1849. The second succession of firms, goes something like this, at present: MOORWOOD & PRIEST Sheffield 1854 - 1856 64 Scotland Street (Edwin Moorwood & Alfred Priest) PRIEST, ALFRED Sheffield 1857 - 1862 -> 64 Scotland Street [1857] 60 Pea Croft [1862] PRIEST & CO. Sheffield <- 1879 - 1925 -> Pea Croft Works, 60 Pea Croft [1879 - 1893] Pea Croft Brass Works, 60 Solly Street [1901-1905] 188 Brook Street [1911] 56 Eyre Street [1919 - 1925] These firms were also listed as brass founders throughout their tenure, and the manufacture of saw screws and german silver was mentioned from the start. As to the "Warranted Superior"/coat-of-arms medallion being registered as a trade mark, the earliest indication I've found of that is in 1879, in association with the William Henry Smith firm. These are links to the trade mark listing and an advertisement in the 1879 directory: http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith.jpg http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith2.jpg At some point between 1879 and 1901, Priest and Co. seems to have purchased rights to the trade mark, as Ray has already indicated. Their 1901 trade mark listing can be found at this link: http://www.planemaker.com/photos/Priest.jpg So, it would appear that all such medallions, for quite some time, would have been manufactured by one of these firms. At this point, I don't know how early the W. H. Smith succession of firms registered it as a trade mark, but they had been making saw screws for over 40 years by 1879, and may have registered it some years earlier. Hope this has been of some interest. Don McConnell Eureka Springs, AR ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181907 | "Dana Farmer& Cindy Miller" <cynthia.miller22@v...> | 2008‑08‑05 | RE: Old saw with blank medallion |
If I'm understanding this correctly? I see a few possibilities regarding medallions. If someone would let me know what is the real deal behind the warranted superior saws 1) A larger saw maker was making a batch of saws for a special order, say a hardware store. They would stick warranted superior medallions into the saws? 2) these nuts were purchased by small manufacturers who didn't have there own medallions. 3) A larger operation would put the medallions onto saws that were not top quality, but not bad enough to be recycled. Thanks Dana -------------------------------- |
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181892 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑05 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Hi Steve, Yes, "Warranted Superior" was a Priest & Co Trademark. Sorry I can't give a more detailed answer, I am out on site at present. Regards Ray On 8/4/2008, "Steve Reynolds" |
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181925 | Bill Kasper <dragonlist@u...> | 2008‑08‑05 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
i have always liked the idea that someone, somewhere, designed the various "warrented superior" dies, and did nothing but make sawnuts all day long for the various manufacturers...and somehow don (whose scholarly research absolutely floors me, THANK YOU DON, as always) is going to find reference to it in an original shopfront and a later "&sons" shopfront, and then show the buyout by millers falls, or summat, when the "&sons" wear out their triphammers. kinda reverse of your idea, and oddly-enough twisted for my taste. bill felton, ca On Aug 5, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Steve Reynolds wrote: > I have always thought that Disston, Atkins, and Simonds made their > own Warranted Superior nuts and supplied other smaller firms. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181924 | Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> | 2008‑08‑05 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Don McConnell wrote: > Steve Reynolds wrote: > >> Ray, I don't think I'm following. Are you saying that one company >> (Priest & Co.) had a trademark for "Warranted Superior", and made all >> the sawnuts so marked? >> > > [snip] > > As to the "Warranted Superior"/coat-of-arms medallion being registered > as a trade mark, the earliest indication I've found of that is in 1879, > in association with the William Henry Smith firm. These are links to > the trade mark listing and an advertisement in the 1879 directory: > > http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith.jpg > > http://www.planemaker.com/photos/whsmith2.jpg > > At some point between 1879 and 1901, Priest and Co. seems to have > purchased rights to the trade mark, as Ray has already indicated. > Their 1901 trade mark listing can be found at this link: > > http://www.planemaker.com/photos/Priest.jpg > > So, it would appear that all such medallions, for quite some time, > would have been manufactured by one of these firms. At this point, I > don't know how early the W. H. Smith succession of firms registered > it as a trade mark, but they had been making saw screws for over 40 > years by 1879, and may have registered it some years earlier. Thanks, Don, for your usual level of scholarly research. I'm assuming that the trademark you discuss would be effective for Great Britain and whatever Commonwealth that was obeying British trademark laws at the time? I'm further assuming the Warranted Superior sawnuts we usually see here in the US were made by whoever wanted to. I have always thought that Disston, Atkins, and Simonds made their own Warranted Superior nuts and supplied other smaller firms. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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181928 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑06 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Hi Don, Steve et al Nicely detailed research Don, I think it points to some interesting possibilities. Wiktor, in an earlier post asked if anyone had additional information about Priest & Co. Following that line a bit further, if the Priest & Co archives were to be located then, it should be possible to find out who they made medallions for, what patterns, how many, when. And of course who was buying the generic "warranted superior" medallions The likely place to first look would be the Sheffied Archives, has any research already been done along these lines? As to Steve's question of other makers of "warranted superior" medallions. I imagine there were others. Perhaps that's why Priest & Co. took the trouble to register the trademark. For a long period, the US saw makers imported steel from the UK (apart from those with their own steel making facilities) So, I would not be surprised if some US makers were importing Medallions from Britain as well as steel for blades. Regards Ray On 8/5/2008, "Steve Reynolds" |
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181929 | "Ray Gardiner" <ray@e...> | 2008‑08‑06 | Re: Old saw with blank medallion |
Hi James, Having been diverted by medallions, I forgot to mention the saw. Another possibility for your saw, George Bishop, was a Sheffield wool shear maker, Listed in 1791 universal, Peter Bishop, his son is listed as a Edge tool and sawmaker in the same directory. Peter was apprenticed in 1783 and his father George is listed as a shearsmith so it is likely the same. (assuming it's the same Peter of course) he was apprenticed to William Wortley a scissorsmith. 1791 Bishop Weldon and Co are listed as :- Factors and Manufacturers of steel saws and edge tools in Holdens 1805-7 Bishop, Potts, Carr & Co. Merchants Arundel Street. So I suspect that Bishop, Weldon & Carr are resellers. I would put Peter Bishop down as a possibility for the maker of your saw. and marked with his father's name G BISHOP (possibly sold by the merchant Bishop, Weldon & Carr). There are also a number of Charles Bishops and George Bishops listed as cutlers, I imagine some those could be possibilities as well. I chose to investigate Peter, mainly because he identifies himself as a sawmaker. Regards Ray On 8/4/2008, "jamesbrown" |
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