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272486 james bennett <jlb5542@g...> 2021‑01‑09 Scrapping a piano tomorrow
Galoots  - ebony keys, worth my time in a resale situation?

Thanks!
James
272487 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑01‑09 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
James:

Ebony and Ivory, together in CITES harmony!  The whole keyboard assembly may
come out as a unit for later dissection.

Some of my best boyhood projects were made from the "Rock Maple" frame of an
upright that I found in a vacant lot.  It was so hard that even the tempered
nails for hardwood flooring required pilot holes.

John Ruth
272492 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑01‑09 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
James spots a recycling event…


If ’twere me, I’d rescue them.  You will find the ivory is a veneer, and could
be reused as inlay,  the ‘ebony’ may be ebonised, or the good stuff,  either
eway, it has second uses.
and as John said, the main frame sections will make absolutely superb timber.  

“They don’t grow them like that anymore”


Richard Wilson

Up before the sun in Northumbria
272505 Kirk Eppler 2021‑01‑09 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
I'd suggest a search through the archives for any post by Todd Hughes and
piano in the same message.  I think he has some caveats about quality of
material as far as age, real ebony and ivory, etc.

Not sure about resale value but reuse maybe.

Kirk Eppler from the Droid

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 2:11 AM yorkshireman@y... <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
272517 Nick Jonkman <njonkman@x...> 2021‑01‑10 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
Hi guys

I haven't been very active lately so thought I needed to chime in. Quite 
a few years ago I designed and built a special sander for a lady in 
California. She was replacing the plastic on piano keys with salvaged 
ivory from old pianos. She actually used new keys and glued the old 
ivory to these. Since the ivory pieces were not all the same thickness 
she needed a machine that would surface sand them flat. I built a drum 
sander for her with 3 or 4 different grits of paper on it with dedicated 
slot/track for each grit where she could slide the key into to cross the 
drum. She sent me some new keys and one with salvage ivory on it so I 
could build the machine to fit. I presume she was happy as I never heard 
from her again. So yes old ivory can be reused.

Nick
272523 Dave T <dwtardiff13@g...> 2021‑01‑10 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
I just salvaged an old upright recently, by the side of the road.
It was just sitting there at the edge of a dirt road when I drove by, a
little away from a house.  I stopped to look at it, then went on my way.
On my return trip, a FREE sign had been added, so I returned with a few
tools and went to work.  Pianos are built for service, so most of the parts
come off pretty easily, even without tools.  I removed all the covers,
doors, keys, etc, including the large heavy casters on the bottom. I
dismantled all that I could, and only missed out on the soundboard (great
wood, 100 years later?  Why not?) because many of the very large flathead
screws attaching the harp to it were underneath strings, and I hadn't come
prepared to cut or remove the taught string wires.  I did take as many of
the large wooden chunks that I could remove, and so far it's all just piled
up in the garage.  I did remove a few of the ivory key tops as a test, but
haven't cut into the black keys yet to verify ebony or not.  Even the keys
themselves are quite good wood, the black parts are glued on, so they could
be ebony....

From the research I did, if the keys are in multiple parts, they're ivory,
as the plastic versions are one L-shaped veneer.
272524 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑01‑10 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
A freind gave me some piano keys recelty and I salvaged the ivory veneer - I
have used it for inlay on a guitar, and a key escutcheon.  8-10  of the 10” long
or so pieces of what looked like Sugar Pine that was left after harvesting were
in a box.  Last night I found that they make AMAZING kindling.

Ed Minch
272527 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
I have used the recovered Piano key ivory as inlet markers for pairs of
winding sticks ( and various other tiny projects).  The ivory veneers are
usually just a few mm thick and have great color ( but I’m sure many
synthetic materials the luthiers use would work just as well, so it is not
irreplaceable).  Although it may be sinful to slaughter elephants for new
ivory, I’m conflicted about governments that insist on destroying even
ancient ivory objects on the principle that only a complete ivory ban will
stop poaching.  I understand it, but I will still save old piano keys
whenever I can (most of the more recent ones are all synthetic).  It seems
the greater sin to put old pianos in the landfill.  Upcycle, reuse, and
repurpose I say.  Maybe it is wrong?  The older I get, the less certain I
am...
Cheers
Claudio
272535 James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
can't imagine what that smelled like (sanding ivory). If its anything like
bone, I'd want to be far away.

On the other hand, I've been dreaming of a new piano with old ivory on the
keys for a looong time.... Good to know I'm not hte only one..
-James
272538 David Wittner <dwittne@u...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
Jumping in late and perhaps a bit off topic but I've been known to salvage
(from) the occasional piano. Strip the ivory from the keys, ebony as well.
Piano tuner pointed out that it was Gabon ebony. I'll take any solid wood,
i.e., not veneer, from the carcass, if there's any, and bring the frame to
the scrap yard-- last one was 200lbs of cast iron. If you really want to
have fun there are lead counterweights in the keys that amount to several
pounds.

The ebony ends up as keys or glue ups for knife scales. Haven't used any of
the ivory yet. Wood has found its way into various projects and the scraped
metals support my tool habit! I've yet to find anything cool to do with the
strings other than line burners for turning.

Disclaimer: I only do this to pianos heading for the garbage dump, and even
then feel guilty about "killing" an instrument.

DGW

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools  On Behalf Of James DuPrie
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 8:44 AM
To: Nick Jonkman 
Cc: Tools Old 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Scrapping a piano tomorrow

can't imagine what that smelled like (sanding ivory). If its anything like
bone, I'd want to be far away.

On the other hand, I've been dreaming of a new piano with old ivory on the
keys for a looong time.... Good to know I'm not hte only one..
-James

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:11 PM Nick Jonkman  wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> I haven't been very active lately so thought I needed to chime in.
> Quite a few years ago I designed and built a special sander for a lady
> in California. She was replacing the plastic on piano keys with
> salvaged ivory from old pianos. She actually used new keys and glued
> the old ivory to these. Since the ivory pieces were not all the same
> thickness she needed a machine that would surface sand them flat. I
> built a drum sander for her with 3 or 4 different grits of paper on it
> with dedicated slot/track for each grit where she could slide the key
> into to cross the drum. She sent me some new keys and one with salvage
> ivory on it so I could build the machine to fit. I presume she was
> happy as I never heard from her again. So yes old ivory can be reused.
>
> Nick
>
>
> On 21-01-09 5:40 PM, Kirk Eppler via OldTools wrote:
> > I'd suggest a search through the archives for any post by Todd
> > Hughes and piano in the same message.  I think he has some caveats
> > about quality of material as far as age, real ebony and ivory, etc.
> >
> > Not sure about resale value but reuse maybe.
> >
> > Kirk Eppler from the Droid
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 2:11 AM yorkshireman@y... <
> > yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
> >
> >> James spots a recycling event…
> >>
> >>
> >> If ’twere me, I’d rescue them.  You will find the ivory is a
> >> veneer, and could be reused as inlay,  the ‘ebony’ may be ebonised,
> >> or the good
> stuff,
> >> either eway, it has second uses.
> >> and as John said, the main frame sections will make absolutely
> >> superb timber.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 9 Jan 2021, at 00:32, james bennett  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Galoots  - ebony keys, worth my time in a resale situation?
> >>>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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272541 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
It doesn't smell to bad when you lightly scrape it, IIRC. Might do, if 
you go at it hard, generating more heat.

Don

On 2021-01-11 6:44 a.m., James DuPrie wrote:
> can't imagine what that smelled like (sanding ivory). If its anything like
> bone, I'd want to be far away.
>
> On the other hand, I've been dreaming of a new piano with old ivory on the
> keys for a looong time.... Good to know I'm not hte only one..
> -James
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:11 PM Nick Jonkman  wrote:
>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> I haven't been very active lately so thought I needed to chime in. Quite
>> a few years ago I designed and built a special sander for a lady in
>> California. She was replacing the plastic on piano keys with salvaged
>> ivory from old pianos. She actually used new keys and glued the old
>> ivory to these. Since the ivory pieces were not all the same thickness
>> she needed a machine that would surface sand them flat. I built a drum
>> sander for her with 3 or 4 different grits of paper on it with dedicated
>> slot/track for each grit where she could slide the key into to cross the
>> drum. She sent me some new keys and one with salvage ivory on it so I
>> could build the machine to fit. I presume she was happy as I never heard
>> from her again. So yes old ivory can be reused.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On 21-01-09 5:40 PM, Kirk Eppler via OldTools wrote:
>>> I'd suggest a search through the archives for any post by Todd Hughes and
>>> piano in the same message.  I think he has some caveats about quality of
>>> material as far as age, real ebony and ivory, etc.
>>>
>>> Not sure about resale value but reuse maybe.
>>>
>>> Kirk Eppler from the Droid
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 2:11 AM yorkshireman@y... <
>>> yorkshireman@y...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> James spots a recycling event…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If ’twere me, I’d rescue them.  You will find the ivory is a veneer, and
>>>> could be reused as inlay,  the ‘ebony’ may be ebonised, or the good
>> stuff,
>>>> either eway, it has second uses.
>>>> and as John said, the main frame sections will make absolutely superb
>>>> timber.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Jan 2021, at 00:32, james bennett  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Galoots  - ebony keys, worth my time in a resale situation?
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>>
>>> To change your subscription options:
>>> >>> htt
ps://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>>
>>> To read the FAQ:
>>> >>> https://swingleydev.c
om/archive/faq.html
>>>
>>> >>> OldTools archive: https://swingley
dev.com/ot/
>>>
>>> OldTools@s...
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>
>> To change your subscription options:
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>>
>> To read the FAQ:
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>>
>> >> OldTools archive: https://swingleyde
v.com/ot/
>>
>> OldTools@s...
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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>
> To change your subscription options:
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>
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-- 
If a guy's not to be trusted with a Twitter account, should he be trusted with
the nuclear launch codes?

“Those ... who believe that they either speak or are silent, or do anything from
a free decision of the mind, dream with open eyes.”
-Benedict de Spinoza
272544 gary may 2021‑01‑11 Re: Faux ivory
Hi Ed---

          Wonderful guitar you've built there. Sounds wonderful too!  Reminding
us all, perhaps, that 'amateur' means 'lover', and not 'bungler'.

                          Proud to know the Minches;  gam in OlyWA/USA


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 05:50:42 PM PST, Ed Minch 
wrote:
 
 Ivory has been used on guitars for a long time and in fact Martin (big, old,
good guitar maker Jeff) used some real ivory until the 1980’s.  When it is thin
like a piano key, I have seen red paint in the recess before the ivory and it
gives it a nice color.

I just copied a Martin from pre-civil war times and put a faux ivory bridge on
it - the original would have been covered in ivory stuff.  It is redwood and
maple where the originals would have been spruce and maple.  All of the other
white-ish strips are what is called Ivoroid.  This is a very early plastic made
from the residue of photography chemicals - the oldest plastic was this stuff in
1858 (??)Many piano keys were made of this starting in the 1870’s.

I love this instrument  - Click left and right, text below, and my daughter
plays a little tune on the last frame:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/50356331877/in/album-72157678301
955987/


Ed Minch


> On Jan 10, 2021, at 8:15 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi  wrote:
> 
> I have used the recovered Piano key ivory as inlet markers for pairs of
winding sticks ( and various other tiny projects).  The ivory veneers are
usually just a few mm thick and have great color ( but I’m sure many synthetic
materials the luthiers use would work just as well, so it is not irreplaceable).
Although it may be sinful to slaughter elephants for new ivory, I’m conflicted
about governments that insist on destroying even ancient ivory objects on the
principle that only a complete ivory ban will stop poaching.  I understand it,
but I will still save old piano keys whenever I can (most of the more recent
ones are all synthetic).  It seems the greater sin to put old pianos in the
landfill.  Upcycle, reuse, and repurpose I say.  Maybe it is wrong?  The older I
get, the less certain I am...
> Cheers
> Claudio
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
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OldTools@s...
272546 james bennett <jlb5542@g...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
The piano yielded some very nice ebony keys (based on uniformly color
throughout), ivory keys, several 3x3 timbers of 4 foot length and several
3x3 odds and ends of the tightest, high count grain wood I've ever seen.
I'll get back with a count and photo. Used hand tools in the disassembly,
and found very little joinery beyond butt joints, glue and LOTS of slotted
screws. Initially, a little bit of disappointment in the craftsmanship, but
on reflection, the strength of the assembly supporting the soundboard/harp
included what appeared to be shopmade "plywood", all butt joints were tight
fitting, glue joints survived 100+ years for glue ups, etc, so feeling a
little guilt about the salvage, but all an all an interesting lesson. Thank
you to everyone for your comments, very informative.

James
272549 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
One way to check for eboiny is its weight - very heavy and when you drop it on a
metal serface, small pieces “clink” really nicely.  It is 62+ lbs/ft3, so about
twice as heavy as cherry, mahogany, or walnut.

Ed Miknch
272553 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑01‑11 Re: Faux ivory
> On Jan 11, 2021, at 1:08 PM, scott grandstaff  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the pix of the wonderful ax Ed!
> Its amazingly generous of you to take so many beautifully composed pictures to
share.
> 
> But I searched and searched hoping for a moment with Mamie.


Scott

At the bottom of the last shot.  A composite of several tunes

Ed

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/50356339247/in/album-72157678301
955987/
272554 Dave T <dwtardiff13@g...> 2021‑01‑12 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
The keys from my old piano seem to have cylindrical lead weights in
them....I suppose I should remove them before I burn them....
272563 Clifford Fales <cfales1407@c...> 2021‑01‑12 Re: Scrapping a piano tomorrow
Another use for ivory when parting out a piano:

In the late 19th & early 20th centuries fashionable ladies carried small 
notebooks with very thin ivory pages   ---- write with pencil and rub 
off to erase.

Front and back covers for the notebook might also be ivory, or other 
material, i.e. mother of pearl, tortoise shell, silver

There is some ambiguity about the names used for this item: 
aide-memoire, carnet de bal, chatelaine.

An example of the most common configuration is:
https://www.google.com
/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.worthpoint.com%2Fzoom%2Fimages2%2F1%2F0107%2
F14%2Ffab-victorian-ladies-old-ivory-notebook-w-brass_1_78832331a9c4445a415df14b
9c99f595.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.worthpoint.com%2Fworthopedia%2Ffab-
victorian-ladies-old-ivory-notebook-w-brass&tbnid=kZcT2jYH6AxdRM&vet=12ahUKEwjo0
cPgvJfuAhWCRs0KHSgRDlUQMygDegQIARBX..i&docid=RNOZD_anmf-zhM&w=400&h=232&q=antiqu
e%20ladies%20ivory%20notebook&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=2ahUKEwjo0cPgvJfuAhWCRs0K
HSgRDlUQMygDegQIARBX
<https://www.google.com
/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.worthpoint.com%2Fzoom%2Fimages2%2F1%2F0107%2
F14%2Ffab-victorian-ladies-old-ivory-notebook-w-brass_1_78832331a9c4445a415df14b
9c99f595.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.worthpoint.com%2Fworthopedia%2Ffab-
victorian-ladies-old-ivory-notebook-w-brass&tbnid=kZcT2jYH6AxdRM&vet=12ahUKEwjo0
cPgvJfuAhWCRs0KHSgRDlUQMygDegQIARBX..i&docid=RNOZD_anmf-zhM&w=400&h=232&q=antiqu
e%20ladies%20ivory%20notebook&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=2ahUKEwjo0cPgvJfuAhWCRs0K
HSgRDlUQMygDegQIARBX>


Someone is now making them from recycled piano keys.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fd121tcdkpp02p4.cloudfr
ont.net%2Fclim%2F34624%2Fminiature-
notebook-1340547641.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goosebay-
workshops.com%2FWhat-s-In-Your-Pocket-&tbnid=Gjuzwa2dyYjM7M&vet=12ahUKEwir5t_1qZ
XuAhUZUc0KHbfMDBMQMygJegUIARC8AQ..i&docid=16QolzCmX_SRYM&w=886&h=287&q=ivory%20n
otebook&hl=en&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=2ahUKEwir5t_1qZXuAhUZUc0KHbfMDBMQMygJegUI
ARC8AQ
<https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fd121tcdkpp02p4.cloudfr
ont.net%2Fclim%2F34624%2Fminiature-
notebook-1340547641.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goosebay-
workshops.com%2FWhat-s-In-Your-Pocket-&tbnid=Gjuzwa2dyYjM7M&vet=12ahUKEwir5t_1qZ
XuAhUZUc0KHbfMDBMQMygJegUIARC8AQ..i&docid=16QolzCmX_SRYM&w=886&h=287&q=ivory%20n
otebook&hl=en&client=firefox-b-1-d&ved=2ahUKEwir5t_1qZXuAhUZUc0KHbfMDBMQMygJegUI
ARC8AQ>

Regards,
Cliff

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