OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
271908 | "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> | 2020‑10‑12 | crown molding application to bookcase |
GGs, I'm in a multi-month process (yeah, it's a rush job) of building a bookcase for my daughters. It's all tulip poplar, 1x9x6 ft, which is the stock size I could get. The top is dovetailed with common through-DTs, and the shelves all use sliding dovetails; the back panels were resawn by hand and fitted into grooves on the sides. I post photos on twitter as I go along, but will eventually get around to posting a writeup here, since it's been almost entirely hand/vintage tools. I now find myself having made a crown moulding for it to hide the dovetails. The moulding is 2-1/4" wide (it's from p. 192 of Bickford's book, taken from a Rhode Island chest). I'm planning to join the corners of the moulding with miters, but I'm worrying about expansion and contraction. What's the best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the front and sides? Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like a bad idea, regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my mitered corners. On a related note, should I nail the miters together, or use glue and a spline? I'd like to know what is best practice, but also what is historically correct. My inclination is hide glue and a spline (maybe floating tenon is more correct). thanks, Adam |
|||
271913 | "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
Adam, I tackle this issue by gluing the front strip to the carcass (long grain to long grain so movement in its length is not an issue) then gluing the side strips only on the front 3-4 inches. Use a fine finishing nail on the back end of the side strips. That keeps the front mitre joint closed but allows movement to the rear. Cheers, John Johnston “There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.” |
|||
271915 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
Adam’s cornicing Depending on the site - you could ? leave the cornice as a loose item. You’d need to provide bearers at the back of the cornice, and corner blocks to support he corner - in cross section, imagine a T on its side, where the vertical bar is actually the cornice leaning out, and the horizontal bar sits atop the casework. A full width bar runs at the back between the ‘free’ end of the returns. If desired, you can screw the bars/supports down to the case at the centre points, but that would be overkill. All manner of bracing etc can be provided, your only issue being to ensure that it is a loose enough drop fit that the casework expansion is not able to stretch the joints apart. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot |
|||
271916 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
Its probably not the right thing for this elegant piece of furniture. (sounds divine btw Adam) But I have always been a brad guy. Choosing and doing a workmanlike job with good 'ol honest brads was always a matter of pride for me. I started using them on my own when I began woodworking and quickly found that learning to choose the right brad and applying it correctly was not nothing. There is still nothing wrong with them even though they are out of fashion now. Battery drills/screws or air brads have taken over and hardly anyone even remembers brads. Last year there was a yard sale a couple doors down. After the sale was over where was a badly warped desk and a plain bookshelf left over. They were set out to be taken to the dump. The desk had a 2 ton early particleboard top, ugh, that was waste. But the carcass was made from hardwood with 3 drawers. I threw the top away and made the case into a side table, mostly just for storage. I needed to stash some of the nicest chisels ever made that I had gathered in a fortuitous circumstance. But the bookshelf, completely innocent pine planks nailed together (brads). I thought maybe I would disassemble and use the planks. Hate to see good wood going to the landfill. But the shelf was still strong. Looking it over carefully when I got it home, I realized I had made it, probably 40 years ago. A shelf for a utility room or garage or something I had put up for a neighbor most likely. I don't remember. But the style was undeniable. And the reason it had held together all this time, was that the brads were chosen for the job and applied correctly. My granddaughter had just moved and needed a shelf, so guess where that one went. lol As far as crown molding, I put up this display shelf around maybe 25-30 years ago. The crown is bradded on. No opening of the miters in all this time, not even a little. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/bottles/livingshelf.jpg We do have a tendency to overthink sometimes, hahaaha yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
|||
271917 | "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 06:32 , scott grandstaff |
|||
271918 | Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
I am surprised the traditional method has yet to appear..... ITOD, the moulding was applied using a sliding dovetail. Male mounted to the cabinet, female routed on the molding. Sometimes the DT section applied in a single continuous strip, but more commonly in short sections... You would glue/screw/nail the male piece to the cabinet, keeping the alignment. With short sections of DT, you just nail or glue them on. Then the actual molding is applied to this DT strip. The molding is applied to the sides by gluing/nailing the first couple of inches along the front, then allowed to be free moving along the back.... expansion/contraction being the issue. The movement becomes an issue only along the back, away from the observer, so it "disappears"..... Since the front piece does not have an issue with cross grained movement, you can glue/nail this section along its length, or spotty gluing. With your very wide/thick molding, it is an option....... and it hides the carcase DT well. But it is LOT of work. Especially doing it all with hand tools. Note on the male DT strip: It is usually made from the end of a board, meaning the grain along the DT is not aligned with the length, but perpendicular to it.... think short grain along the length. This way, if the carcase wants to tug at the DT, the DT breaks off, and the cabinet side is not constrained. >> GGs, >> >> (snip) >> I now find myself having made a crown moulding for it to hide the dovetails. >> The moulding is 2-1/4" wide (it's from p. 192 of Bickford's book, taken >> from a Rhode Island chest). I'm planning to join the corners of the moulding >> with miters, but I'm worrying about expansion and contraction. What's the >> best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the front and sides? >> Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like a bad idea, >> regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my mitered >> corners. >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html > > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/ > > OldTools@s... -- *Frank Filippone* *BMWRed735i@G...* |
|||
271919 | Scott Garrison <scottbgarrison@g...> | 2020‑10‑13 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
Adam says - > What's the best way to affix a crown moulding to a carcase? Nail the front and sides? Nail the sides only? Nail the front only? Glue seems like a bad idea, regardless, but I'd rather not see a big ol' seasonal gap on my mitered corners. > On a related note, should I nail the miters together, or use glue and a spline? I'd like to know what is best practice, but also what is historically correct. My inclination is hide glue and a spline (maybe floating tenon is more correct). I too do what John says - "tackle this issue by gluing the front strip to the carcass (long grain to long grain so movement in its length is not an issue)" but where he then glues the front 3-4 inches, letting the back float, I sometimes do that or I nail with brads, or in the case of a blanket box, I made a sliding dovetail. Unless using the sliding dovetail at the back, definitely add the necessary number of brads to hold it tight. For brads, I use Tremont nails, don't have the size in my noggin at the moment but could go look. For "traditional-type" furniture as opposed to outdoors or shop thingamajigs I always use hide glue, either make my own from the can or Old Brown Glue. Here is the handplaned moulding for the cherry bookcase that I built for my daughter a few years ago. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5i K0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF1QipN90r2ZCqJJ5Ut4_9nFKbJXc9h_7PXpnv6Zzl 3D?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZEVScEx3">https://photos.google.com/share /AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5iK0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF 1QipN90r2ZCqJJ5Ut4_9nFKbJXc9h_7PXpnv6Zzl3D?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZ EVScEx3 I did hide glue the miters themselves, more so as a caulking that when I sand I get any minor discrepancies to fill in. I built up a structure above the carcass to which I glued long grain to long grain and nailed with brads otherwise. You can see that in this pic. Sorry I was unable to pull the case from the wall for a clearer shot. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5i K0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF1QipO07d4cS6brWSekHvrm6IVYfz9uNWRldlWLvi By?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZEVScEx3">https://photos.google.com/share /AF1QipOqcpYASgr9lsDjccn3jeWUo2Wt30qot5iK0EWTM_dgEvMICOlsvICptOASu2lXDw/photo/AF 1QipO07d4cS6brWSekHvrm6IVYfz9uNWRldlWLviBy?key=UklNRTdqb2p4Z2l3cFctN05ZQTNxaTdoZ EVScEx3 But this is 3? years old now and I have had no issue with movement that wasn't expected and compensated for. One thing I did learn, is that hide glue is not completely invisible to finishes as you can see some blemishes. PS - As I was writing this Frank also addressed the sliding dovetail, here's a random pic from the internet http://www.steveweb.net/breadboard_preassembly.jpg Scott Garrison Duluth GA On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:41 PM Frank Filippone |
|||
271926 | Patrick Olguin <paddychulo@g...> | 2020‑10‑14 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
GGs, Regarding sliding dovetails, I have a confession. I have cheated. No, not using a tailed demon. As Frank described, cutting and applying small, short-grain male dovetails is accepted practice, but cutting two beveled strips and gluing them long-grain to long-grain to the backside of your moulding, where it's never seen, is a dirty little secret. I got the idea from hanging cabinets with French cleats I'd made myself, way back when I was installing kitchens as a part-time gig. Well, what is a French cleat, but half a sliding dovetail? Getting the proper alignment on the "cheater" female dovetail is simple enough. I just use the short-grain male pieces as spacers for lining up the cleats. Put a little wax on the males before gluing the cleats in place or they might get stuck. Don't ask me how I know this. The side pieces of moulding are thinner than the front, because instead of excavating a dovetail, you're gluing on two cleats. It's not that pretty, but no one will see it. I start with the moulding/dovetail assembly slightly thick, and then plane it down so that I get a really snug fit, and check that the miters (mitres, Richard) are tight. This is way simpler than cutting a sliding dovetail. Yes, I realize it's kind of a Galoot rite of passage. Glue/brad-nail as normal. Best, Paddy - who's better at planing than chiseling On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:41 AM Frank Filippone |
|||
271931 | Chuck Taylor | 2020‑10‑14 | Re: Adam's shop [Was "crown molding application to bookcase"] |
Gentle Galoots, Pardon me for hijacking this thread to talk about some other goodies in Adam's shop photos. Adam, you wrote: > Photos here of the case as it stands, and the moulding in >question. ... https://maxwells.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Poplar-bookcase/ > I threw in some gratuitous photos of milling the back... Thanks for doing that! I love that frame saw! Where did the blade come from? How do you get it started accurately with teeth that size? Judging from the looks of your cabinet back, it appears to work a treat! I see that you have installed a planing stop with steel teeth on/in your bench top. Like Chris Schwarz has been touting lately. How is it working for you? Any problems with the teeth marking the ends of the stock? Nice-looking pole lathe! I like the way you have mounted a twin-screw vise at what looks like the left end of your bench with fixed screws and movable nuts. I've seen it done that way in some of the old historical illustrations that Chris has made available, but nowhere else. I put a leg vise in the front vise position of my bench because with a 5" thick bench top, having the screw[s] of a conventional front vise or twin screw vise run under the 5"-thick bench top would lead to too much vertical racking to suit me. Putting an end vise with fixed screws like yours on the left end would solve that problem. But the leg vise is staying! I've been intending to build a "Moxon" vise but have been put off by the prospect of mounting/dismounting it as needed and finding a place to store it. Mounting a twin-screw vise like yours would eliminate my need for a separate Moxon vise. Those wooden screws look they were made using one of those 1-1/2" Taiwanese threading kits sold by Woodcraft and others. Is that right? Thanks for sharing. Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA |
|||
271933 | Patrick Olguin <paddychulo@g...> | 2020‑10‑14 | Re: crown molding application to bookcase |
Hey Frank, YES! The important step is that the short grain male DTs, that will be installed as usual on the sides of the carcasse, are used as a reference to perfectly size the female cheater 45deg long grain strips. When the cheater 45 strips are dry, I slide the male DTs-as-spacers out, and install them on the carcasse. Then slide the female "dovetail" over the male parts. If the male DTs mushroom a little during their installation, that's kind of a bonus, as it works sort of like a draw-bored M&T, and really sucks the lady DT onto the carcasse. Paddy the lazy engineer On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 11:06 AM Frank Filippone |
|||
271934 | "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> | 2020‑10‑15 | Re: Adam's shop [Was "crown molding application to bookcase"] |
Hi, Chuck, Nice to hear from you again! > On Oct 14, 2020, at 10:39 , Chuck Taylor |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |