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270908 Thomas Conroy 2020‑05‑17 Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
O Galoots:
Some more thoughts about how to deal with scissors that have been trashed by
grinding on the inside ("flat") surfaces. This is from theory for me, not (as
far as I can remember) experience.

If you have good scissors that are soft enough to resharpen with a file, then
you might be able to make some improvement by bending the blades.

There are two types of curvature to the "flat" surface, resulting in a compound
three-dimensional curvature. First, the whole face is hollow-ground by the maker
with a big wheel, maybe two or three feet in diameter. To properly re-establish
this by grinding you would need a comparably big grinding wheel, or a special-
purpose belt grinder, and a lot of skill. Second, there is curvature along the
length of the blade; this is what results in your being able to see lots of
daylight between the blades when the scissors are closed and the blades touch at
tips and axle. Scissors Sam calls this second curvature the "spring."

Sam says that you can re-establish the spring of blades that don't have it it:
"In this case I take a pair of heavy pliers and very slightly spring the thinner
of the two blades inward at about two-thirds toward the tip of the blade, then
again at about half an inch from the tip. If you examine quality scissors
closely, you will find that one blade is always thinner than the other. This is
the shearing blade. Always spring the thinner blade....The very hard crystalized
scissors will never be sprung out of shape. Usually I get them with the points
broken off. They are very brittle and will break easily. Before I attempt to
spring scissors, I test them with a file. Scissors of softer metal that can be
sharpened with a file will not usually have broken points."

A thought of my own is that if the problem is a counter-bevel, that is to say a
loss of the hollow of the hollow grinding, then we might take thought to how
Japanese plane blades are treated when the hollow on the back of the blade has
been flattened away. The blade is put flat down on a wooden block, edge sticking
out a little way, and the bevel is given a series of lots of light taps to turn
the edge downward. The taps must be given well back from the edge, on the soft
iron of the back of the blade, not on the the hard brittle steel of the edge.
The metal doesn't have to be moved very far. The technique is somewhat skilled,
but it is well within the capabilities of the individual woodworker; when I took
Japanese sharpening classes, many years ago, the teacher (Jay vn Arsdale) re-
established the hollow of a number of students' blades in this way. I think a
similar approach might be taken to the blades of good shears. If (when) I try
it, I would probably hold the blade in a vise while I did it; and after tapping
over the edge I might just barely touch the flats of the blades near the edge to
fair in the shape---very carefully so as not to destroy the hollowness created
by tapping. After all, as Scott says, what do you have to lose?

I wouldn't want to experiment on treasured big bankers' or tailors' shears with
either of these techniques, because I think they would need a bit of practice.
And I don't, at the moment, have any scissors that have buggered-up flats to try
them on. But sooner or later I will end up with a pair that needs the
techniques, and I intend to try them then.

By the way, in the twists of trying to clear up my backlog of email, I only just
read Scot's long screed on sharpening scissors. I agree with every word of it,
even when it is different from what I wrote. Of course, I agree with myself as
well. And I agree with Claudio too. There is an awful lot of room for varying
methods in sharpening scissors, as long as you understand the geometry.
And never touch the insides of the blades with abrasives.
Tom Conroy.
Oh, and never cut sandpaper with scissors. But none of use would do that, would
we? Sam gets quite heated, by his lights, about a household-tips newspaper
column that advised housewives to sharpen their sewing scissors by cutting
sandpaper with them.  The damage is completely untreatable after a few
repetitions. This is about the only damage he seems to give up on. But we
wouldn't ever do that. Or touch the insides of the blades with abrasives. No
indeed.
270915 Bill Ghio 2020‑05‑17 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
> On May 17, 2020, at 4:40 AM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> Oh, and never cut sandpaper with scissors. But none of use would do that,
would we?

I thot this was why plastic handled scissors were invented...
270947 gary may 2020‑05‑18 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
Tom Conroy:
     Wonderful stuff! I keep meaning to ask; 'big banker's shears'? I'm tempted
to look it up myself, but where's the fun in that? Thanks for all that you do

                                                            yr pl gam in OlyWA


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Sunday, May 17, 2020, 01:40:32 AM PDT, Thomas Conroy
 wrote:
 
 O Galoots:
Some more thoughts about how to deal with scissors that have been trashed by
grinding on the inside ("flat") surfaces. This is from theory for me, not (as
far as I can remember) experience.

If you have good scissors that are soft enough to resharpen with a file, then
you might be able to make some improvement by bending the blades.

There are two types of curvature to the "flat" surface, resulting in a compound
three-dimensional curvature. First, the whole face is hollow-ground by the maker
with a big wheel, maybe two or three feet in diameter. To properly re-establish
this by grinding you would need a comparably big grinding wheel, or a special-
purpose belt grinder, and a lot of skill. Second, there is curvature along the
length of the blade; this is what results in your being able to see lots of
daylight between the blades when the scissors are closed and the blades touch at
tips and axle. Scissors Sam calls this second curvature the "spring."

Sam says that you can re-establish the spring of blades that don't have it it:
"In this case I take a pair of heavy pliers and very slightly spring the thinner
of the two blades inward at about two-thirds toward the tip of the blade, then
again at about half an inch from the tip. If you examine quality scissors
closely, you will find that one blade is always thinner than the other. This is
the shearing blade. Always spring the thinner blade....The very hard crystalized
scissors will never be sprung out of shape. Usually I get them with the points
broken off. They are very brittle and will break easily. Before I attempt to
spring scissors, I test them with a file. Scissors of softer metal that can be
sharpened with a file will not usually have broken points."

A thought of my own is that if the problem is a counter-bevel, that is to say a
loss of the hollow of the hollow grinding, then we might take thought to how
Japanese plane blades are treated when the hollow on the back of the blade has
been flattened away. The blade is put flat down on a wooden block, edge sticking
out a little way, and the bevel is given a series of lots of light taps to turn
the edge downward. The taps must be given well back from the edge, on the soft
iron of the back of the blade, not on the the hard brittle steel of the edge.
The metal doesn't have to be moved very far. The technique is somewhat skilled,
but it is well within the capabilities of the individual woodworker; when I took
Japanese sharpening classes, many years ago, the teacher (Jay vn Arsdale) re-
established the hollow of a number of students' blades in this way. I think a
similar approach might be taken to the blades of good shears. If (when) I try
it, I would probably hold the blade in a vise while I did it; and after tapping
over the edge I might just barely touch the flats of the blades near the edge to
fair in the shape---very carefully so as not to destroy the hollowness created
by tapping. After all, as Scott says, what do you have to lose?

I wouldn't want to experiment on treasured big bankers' or tailors' shears with
either of these techniques, because I think they would need a bit of practice.
And I don't, at the moment, have any scissors that have buggered-up flats to try
them on. But sooner or later I will end up with a pair that needs the
techniques, and I intend to try them then.

By the way, in the twists of trying to clear up my backlog of email, I only just
read Scot's long screed on sharpening scissors. I agree with every word of it,
even when it is different from what I wrote. Of course, I agree with myself as
well. And I agree with Claudio too. There is an awful lot of room for varying
methods in sharpening scissors, as long as you understand the geometry.
And never touch the insides of the blades with abrasives.
Tom Conroy.
Oh, and never cut sandpaper with scissors. But none of use would do that, would
we? Sam gets quite heated, by his lights, about a household-tips newspaper
column that advised housewives to sharpen their sewing scissors by cutting
sandpaper with them.  The damage is completely untreatable after a few
repetitions. This is about the only damage he seems to give up on. But we
wouldn't ever do that. Or touch the insides of the blades with abrasives. No
indeed.
270950 Kirk Eppler 2020‑05‑18 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.

https://archive.org/details/JWissAndSonsCatalog1911/page/n23/mode/2up

Big. 18" long big.



On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:02 PM gary may via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

> Tom Conroy:
>      Wonderful stuff! I keep meaning to ask; 'big banker's shears'? I'm
> tempted to look it up myself, but where's the fun in that? Thanks for all
> that you do
>
>
> I wouldn't want to experiment on treasured big bankers' or tailors' shears
> with either of these techniques, because I think they would need a bit of
> practice.
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, winding down the last meeting of the day.  And trying
to keep the brain engaged by doing old tools stuff.
270952 dks <dks@t...> 2020‑05‑18 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
Strange that they would have been offered over such a wide range of lengths, no?

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Eppler via OldTools" 
To: "gary may" 
Cc: oldtools@s..., "Thomas Conroy" 
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 4:14:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in
theory.


https://archive.org/details/JWissAndSonsCatalog1911/page/n23/mode/2up

Big. 18" long big.



On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:02 PM gary may via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

> Tom Conroy:
>      Wonderful stuff! I keep meaning to ask; 'big banker's shears'? I'm
> tempted to look it up myself, but where's the fun in that? Thanks for all
> that you do
>
>
> I wouldn't want to experiment on treasured big bankers' or tailors' shears
> with either of these techniques, because I think they would need a bit of
> practice.
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, winding down the last meeting of the day.  And trying
to keep the brain engaged by doing old tools stuff.
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270957 Kirk Eppler 2020‑05‑19 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
Nah, not really, makes perfect sense.

The small town banker didn't need the 18" scissors.  But the fat cat banker
in NYC, he had the BIG scissors to show how he had made it.

I suspect the paper hangers were much more pragmatic.  It takes some
strength to manipulate those big shears all day long, so the  5'6" tall guy
had to work his upper body strength up to be able to use the 18", or he may
have had to stop at 15" since the balance probably got to be awkward for
his hands, or too big.  The big guys could start at a larger size?


OK, I've shoveled enough crap in my online meetings, and now it's carrying
over to the tool world.  Maybe I should go work in the garden instead.


KE



On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 4:52 PM dks  wrote:

>
> Strange that they would have been offered over such a wide range of
> lengths, no?
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirk Eppler via OldTools" 
> To: "gary may" 
> Cc: oldtools@s..., "Thomas Conroy" 
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 4:14:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the
> flats, in theory.
>
> > https://archive.org/details/JWissAndSonsCatalog1911/page/n23/mode/2up
>
> Big. 18" long big.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 1:02 PM gary may via OldTools <
> oldtools@s...> wrote:
>
> > Tom Conroy:
> >      Wonderful stuff! I keep meaning to ask; 'big banker's shears'? I'm
> > tempted to look it up myself, but where's the fun in that? Thanks for all
> > that you do
> >
>
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA, who started to unravel a different tool mystery
today, after Mr Welch snipped off one which was going astray.
270958 Bill Ghio 2020‑05‑19 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
My banker scissors (J.A. Henkels) are 10 inches, which seems quite long. 18
inches, or even 15 inches, would be a lot to handle. But I do love the length of
mine for trimming paper nice and straight.

Bill, who only has ten pair of vintage scissors spread around the house.
270960 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑05‑19 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
> On May 18, 2020, at 8:41 PM, Kirk Eppler via OldTools  wrote:
> 
>  It takes some
> strength to manipulate those big shears all day long, so the  5'6" tall guy
> had to work his upper body strength up to be able to use the 18", or he may
> have had to stop at 15" since the balance probably got to be awkward for
> his hands, or too big.  The big guys could start at a larger size?


Kirk

I call malarkey on that one.

I am 6’2" and my mom was 5’ plus a half inch and she had bigger hands than I do,
and she was as strong as a lady ox

Ed
270971 Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> 2020‑05‑22 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
Speaking of working with scissors all day, I'd like to see  the forearms 
of the person who worked with these Sailmakers shears(?). 16" long and 
weigh approx 4 1/2 lbs.  Made by T Wilkinson - Sheffield. Note only one 
side has a point.  Is that usual?

http://eastconn.com/Scissors
/IMG_0431.JPG

http://eastconn.com/Scissors
/IMG_0433.JPG 
<http://eastconn.com/Scissor
s/IMG_0431.JPG>

Paul H.

Hebron CT
270973 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑05‑22 Re: Scissors---re-establishing the geometry of the flats, in theory.
I can’t even open my hand that far. Yow.  In serious sailing circles, where you
may need to use your knife on quick notice, the knife does not have a point -
rather sort of a sheepsfoot pattern -  Google “sailor knife”.  The reason is
that you may be in a group and poking your knife towards a flailing sail or a
whipping rope may result in someone else getting hurt.  When someone asks for
help in cutting a rope, you present your knife blade up, waist high, while not
moving the blade once in position, and let the requestor pass the rope over the
blade.

I am thinking something like this, where the scissors may be used on deck with a
sail in a pile and fellow crew all around.  With symmetrical handles, this would
let you pick which blade is hidden under the sailcloth

Here is an amazing movie made by Irving Johnson, then a passeger on one of the
giant cargo ships the Germans used to train merchant marine sailors after the
turn of the last century.  Trips between Germany and Chile with no engine in a
360 foot sailboat.  In this time of looking-for-something-to-do, the whole movie
is worth a look, but check at 12:30 for a minute

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=9tuTKhqWZso

I climbed to the top of the mainmast of a sister ship, the Kruzenshtern.  Lucky
it was tied to a dock, because 196 feet is high enough without moving 30° either
side of plumb

Ed Minch

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