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270384 "Eric Coyle" <ecoyle@t...> 2020‑04‑05 appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
One of my boredom projects is to fabricate a side for a Millers falls #7
skew rabbet block plane.

 

Original side plate is missing, and so ae the screws that held it on.

 

Does anyone have one? And could they measure the TPI of the screws which
hold the rods in place? I THINK I have them scoped out at a #10-with a 30 
TPI thread count.  This is referred to as a UNS (the S being for special). A
normal 10-32 thread plug goes into the hole about ¾ of the way, and I guess
I could force it, but better to get the right thread, then find a bolt to
fit (next issue to be solved)

 

10-30 is NOT a common size any longer

 

Neighbourhood master-machinist has a 10-30 tap to help confirm, but there’s
always a possibility that a previous owner has Frankenized the thread, so
I’m looking for a further confirmation before I mistakenly fankenize the
device further.

 

Please let me know if you can confirm. Thanks

 

Bored Eric
270385 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Eric,

If the thread actually *is* 10-30 UNS, count yourself lucky.

NS means the threads are of the National Standard form, and not some oddball
like Stanley Rolled Threads, Whitworth 55-degree, Sharp Vee, or BA.

https://www.victornet.com/detail/RD-10-30-B.html

https://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Special-Pitch-Taps-up-
to-1/2-inch/1260.html">https://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Special-Pitch-
Taps-up-to-1/2-inch/1260.html

John Ruth
“Of threads and threading systems, there is no end!” ( (Tm)John Ruth )
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2020, at 8:32 PM, Eric Coyle mailto:ecoyle@t...>> wrote:

One of my boredom projects is to fabricate a side for a Millers falls #7
skew rabbet block plane.



Original side plate is missing, and so ae the screws that held it on.



Does anyone have one? And could they measure the TPI of the screws which
hold the rods in place? I THINK I have them scoped out at a #10-with a 30
TPI thread count.  This is referred to as a UNS (the S being for special). A
normal 10-32 thread plug goes into the hole about ¾ of the way, and I guess
I could force it, but better to get the right thread, then find a bolt to
fit (next issue to be solved)



10-30 is NOT a common size any longer



Neighbourhood master-machinist has a 10-30 tap to help confirm, but there's
always a possibility that a previous owner has Frankenized the thread, so
I'm looking for a further confirmation before I mistakenly fankenize the
device further.



Please let me know if you can confirm. Thanks



Bored Eric

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270388 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Snip
  If the thread actually *is* 10-30 UNS, count yourself lucky.


Exactly.  When I wanted to fix up an old lathe I bought years ago, I had to
special order British Whitworth bolts to replace some chewed out ones.  The
guy at the bolt place said to me- why not just run a tap through and covert
to standard?  I even special ordered some BSW Helicoil kits to repair some
stripped threads.
All that was expensive (compared to using what I had on hand), but I did it
anyways.

Because otherwise, it wouldn’t still all be “original equipment”, right?

  I have always tried to use original parts or at least replacement parts
that could pass as original.

But really, now that I am older and supposedly wiser, who the hell else is
ever going to really care?
Cheers
Claudio
270394 Erik Levin 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Claudio wrote:

> But really, now that I am older and supposedly wiser, who the hell else is
ever going to really care?


You can't tell in the current condition. The plate won't be original. The screws
won't be original. No one here seems to know what the screw thread actually
*should* be (so far, at least), and if no one here does, it is unlikely that
anyone else ever will. Do whatever works, is my suggestion.



As for what the original was:


If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, don't think platypus. MF was an
American manufacturer, which, based on Stanley, means not a lot. Going over my
limited collection of MF tools (planes, measuring tools, spiral screwdrivers), I
find all 60 degree vee thread, including the posts for the knob and tote on a
#140 (14 inch bench plane, roughly a #5 Stanley) and the screws on a #85 rebate
plane (pretty much a clone of Stanley #78). A few screws match the Stanley
equiv, but many don't, like 1/4-20 for the fence rod for the #85 to Stanley's
1/4-28.


Kent (1916- 9th ed) shows 10-30 (0.190-30), 60 deg vee thread, to be the ASME
standard screw, and 10-24 and 10-32 being the special at the time. SAE 1911
(Machinery's 8th ed) gives 10-32 and 10-24 as the standard sizes. I don't know
which MF would have followed, but would guess one or the other.


If the 10-32 hangs up, I would see of a 10-30 does a better job. I might also
try threading in a chunk of wood-- bamboo skewers work well, and the ones I have
on hand are perfect for #10 screws, being 0.180" diameter-- and measure the
thread impression over as many threads as possible.


No idea if this is any help at all, but what else am I going to do on a sunday
morning?


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
270395 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Eric,

Your note strikes me as a cornucopia of useful info!

Many Porch members are no doubt surprised to hear that the ASME standard for a
#10 thread was #10-30 as late as 1916.  “Kent’s” is an authoritative reference.

( Might add that the “Numbered” screw sizes went up to #30. In our time, we
don’t see anything larger than #12 except when working on antiques. )

Thanks for “the word” on M-F screw thread profiles.

Your “Bamboo Trick” will become part of the “toolkit” for identifying internal
threads.

All-in-All,  great post! It’s stuff like this that makes people stay on the
Porch for decades.

John Ruth
Metuchen, NJ
270396 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
>
> That's a great tip.  I've not had much success measuring small
bolts/screws using thread wires (even when using chewing gum to hold the
wires upright, seems like you need teensy hands to do it successfully).

  I bought a wire loop with a full set of standard threads, coarse and fine
from MSC (or maybe Travers) years ago that I often use (they look like
bolts, but the elongated bolt head is drilled and tapped (so you can check
male or female), and they're cross drilled like pearls on a necklace, so I
can't loose just one).   That was a good purchase, and gets used often,
especially when scrounging through my 'bolt bucket' for a match.  If you
see one of these sets, take a look.
 I also purchased a screw ID plate for the small ones (smaller than #6),
but that doesn't get used very often for the things I typically work on.
Cheers
Claudio

Erik said:

bamboo skewers work well, and the ones I have on hand are perfect for #10
screws, being 0.180" diameter-- and measure the thread impression over as
many threads as possible.
270397 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Number 12 vs 1/4" confusion also

-- Claudio
270398 Erik Levin 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
John wrote:

> Thanks for “the word” on M-F screw thread profiles.
>
> Your “Bamboo Trick” will become part of the “toolkit” for identifying internal
threads.
>


I don't know if this was true for all MF planes, but they were well established
in other fields that followed standards when they got into planes in the 1930's.
The wood impressioning trick has been seen here before from a number of people
(George first, many years ago?) I have another tool that I can use to directly
measure the pitch of small threads- an L-shaped length of rod  with 60deg
conical end on the short leg. I use this with the comparator stage by clamping
it to a magnetic base. I have actually made a few, but at the moment can only
find one. They are small and get lost.


The thread profile is as perfect a match on all the fixins' I checked as you
will find to the US standard 60 degree profile overlay at 20X.


Claudio wrote:


> Number 12 vs 1/4" confusion also


#14 is the worst, as it was 20 thread/inch. One of the shops I used to work in
had a lot of early 20th cty machinery and equipment, and one of our machinists
refused to believe there ever was a #14, despite all evidence including the
documentation for some of hte equipment. He would swear that it was a misprint
and tap 'em all out to 1/4"-20. Amazing how many failures followed this. I have
stories that will remain untold to avoid embarrassing the guilty, including me.





*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address by the proud owner of way too
many no-longer-standard taps and dies. 1/16"-64, anyone?
270399 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Claudio,

Did you mean confusion of #14 with 1/4-inch?

A very rare #14-20 differs from a commonplace 1/4-20 by only a few thousandths
of an inch.

In the archives, circa 1993, you’ll find a tale of the day in which a local
hardware merchant sold me a #14-20 die by mistake...

The only use I know of #14-20 threads is in some older Singer sewing machines.

John Ruth

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 5, 2020, at 12:39 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi mailto:claudio@d...">mailto:claudio@d...>> wrote:

Number 12 vs 1/4" confusion also

-- Claudio

On Sun., Apr. 5, 2020, 12:31 p.m. John Ruth, mailto:johnrruth@h...">mailto:johnrruth@h...>> wrote:
Eric,

Your note strikes me as a cornucopia of useful info!

Many Porch members are no doubt surprised to hear that the ASME standard for a
#10 thread was #10-30 as late as 1916.  “Kent’s” is an authoritative reference.

( Might add that the “Numbered” screw sizes went up to #30. In our time, we
don’t see anything larger than #12 except when working on antiques. )

Thanks for “the word” on M-F screw thread profiles.

Your “Bamboo Trick” will become part of the “toolkit” for identifying internal
threads.

All-in-All,  great post! It’s stuff like this that makes people stay on the
Porch for decades.

John Ruth
Metuchen, NJ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
270405 Kirk Eppler 2020‑04‑06 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 8:56 AM Erik Levin via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, don't think platypus. MF
> was an American manufacturer, which, based on Stanley, means not a lot.
> Going over my limited collection of MF tools (planes, measuring tools,
> spiral screwdrivers), I find all 60 degree vee thread, including the posts
> for the knob and tote on a #140 (14 inch bench plane, roughly a #5 Stanley)
> and the screws on a #85 rebate plane (pretty much a clone of Stanley #78).
> A few screws match the Stanley equiv, but many don't, like 1/4-20 for the
> fence rod for the #85 to Stanley's 1/4-28.


I started this earlier, but got side tracked.  In my small sampling, most
MF are normal threads, not the weird stuff that Others Previously Named
Companies used.    I have not seen a 07, nor have one to compare to.

The bamboo skewer works, a soft splint of wood also works, as the bamboo
may splinter.  I’ve used rolled up foil for bigger thing (also work for
shape of sockets on chisels) as I learned here.

Kirk in HMB, who rehabbed 2x #5s, a 60, and a Jordan #3, which I just
discovered was missing a piece when I got it, and and ready to assemble a
Zenith made by Sargent 5607  next, but it’s a sad sack.
-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
270408 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑06 Re: appeal to MFia (Millers falls illuminati agregate
Ahhh, my mistake.  I was trying to remember which one it was...because that
happened to me long while ago and couldn’t initially figure out what was
going on until some old timer set me straight on the problem.
Cheers
Claudio

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