OldTools Archive

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269955 "Cal Meier" <calmeier@s...> 2020‑02‑20 Advice needed
Hi,
I generally lurk somewhere under the porch normally asking or commenting one on
one to a true porch members.
Today I need some advice.  In central Louisiana southern yellow pine, solid wood
doors, are much more common and much cheaper that Douglas Fir or Hemlock my
parent’s and grandparents had access to.  I am going to be applying a “finish”
to from four to six doors (four panel solid pine).  I was planning on using one
pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least
achieve a light or moderate redish brown.  I planned to apply Shellac to fight
the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine.  Then I started thinking
(always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear
polyurethane on.  What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied
2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac??  Locally, getting the garnet or other
darker shellac is not that easy.

Thanks much for any advice or just smiles at this question.

I like to build but generally am scared when it comes to finishing.  I do read
Teri Masaschi books (especially revised edition) “Foolproof wood finishing for
those who love to build and hate to finish—revised edition.”  I guess I am not
too hesitant in asking for advice considering the changes in what is available
in the way of stains.  Teri has had to revise her book in part because a couple
of key venders she sent readers to went out of business.  In my area stains
other than Minwax generally have to be ordered in which can make for some
somewhat expensive gambling when shipping is added in.

Cal Meier
Pineville, LA
71360
Raining steadily.
269956 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2020‑02‑20 Re: Advice needed
SNIP
I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a
jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown.  I planned to
apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine.  Then I
started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply
applied clear polyurethane on.  What kind of color or stain might I expect to
see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac??  Locally, getting the
garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy.

END SNIP

I have used quite a few gallons of shellac on furniture and construction.  With
some woods like pine, you must seal first of you WILL get a blotchy result.  The
easiest approach is to use ZInsser Seal Coat, which is a super blond dewaxed
pre-mix designed for the purpose.  You can go over that with your stains or your
poly.  Do not cut regular Zinsser Amber for use as a seal cost, as it has wax
and may cause adherence problems for subsequent layers of non-shellac finish.

It is not hard to mix amber or ruby shellac or any other color you want.  Just
order the flakes and get a high-quality solvent.  Denatured Alcohol s the most
usual, but for best results try to get a DNA that has very low water content.
That can take some looking.  Avoid paying up for the expensive branded solvents.
They are quite good, but not good enough to make up for the cost.  If you do use
a darker shellac, you will get some shade of amber.  You will not have enough
film thickness to make the door look like the flakes.

Also be aware that use of darker shellac straight over pine can cause blotching.
To avoid that, use the same blond sealer that you would use for poly.

If you use straight shellac outdoors with no varnish topcoat, over time you will
get white water marks.

I
269957 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2020‑02‑20 Re: Advice needed
SNIP
I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a
jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown. I planned to
apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine. Then I
started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply
applied clear polyurethane on. What kind of color or stain might I expect to see
if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac?? Locally, getting the garnet
or other darker shellac is not that easy.

I use 1-pound cut amber shellac extensively in furniture I build. This does not
darken the wood too much, even with multiple coats.

John

“There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness.”

________________________________
From: OldTools  on behalf of Joseph Sullivan 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:14:56 AM
To: 'Cal Meier' ; oldtools@s... 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Advice needed

SNIP
I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a
jell stain to at least achieve a light or moderate redish brown.  I planned to
apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine.  Then I
started thinking (always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply
applied clear polyurethane on.  What kind of color or stain might I expect to
see if I applied 2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac??  Locally, getting the
garnet or other darker shellac is not that easy.

END SNIP

I have used quite a few gallons of shellac on furniture and construction.  With
some woods like pine, you must seal first of you WILL get a blotchy result.  The
easiest approach is to use ZInsser Seal Coat, which is a super blond dewaxed
pre-mix designed for the purpose.  You can go over that with your stains or your
poly.  Do not cut regular Zinsser Amber for use as a seal cost, as it has wax
and may cause adherence problems for subsequent layers of non-shellac finish.

It is not hard to mix amber or ruby shellac or any other color you want.  Just
order the flakes and get a high-quality solvent.  Denatured Alcohol s the most
usual, but for best results try to get a DNA that has very low water content.
That can take some looking.  Avoid paying up for the expensive branded solvents.
They are quite good, but not good enough to make up for the cost.  If you do use
a darker shellac, you will get some shade of amber.  You will not have enough
film thickness to make the door look like the flakes.

Also be aware that use of darker shellac straight over pine can cause blotching.
To avoid that, use the same blond sealer that you would use for poly.

If you use straight shellac outdoors with no varnish topcoat, over time you will
get white water marks.

I

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269958 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑02‑20 Re: Advice needed
On 2020-02-20 8:36 a.m., Cal Meier wrote:
> I generally lurk somewhere under the porch normally asking or commenting one
on one to a true porch members.
> Today I need some advice.  In central Louisiana southern yellow pine, solid
wood doors, are much more common and much cheaper that Douglas Fir or Hemlock my
parent’s and grandparents had access to.  I am going to be applying a “finish”
to from four to six doors (four panel solid pine).  I was planning on using one
pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least
achieve a light or moderate redish brown.  I planned to apply Shellac to fight
the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine.  Then I started thinking
(always dangerous), after seeing some doors others had simply applied clear
polyurethane on.  What kind of color or stain might I expect to see if I applied
2 pound cut (Bullseye) amber shellac??  Locally, getting the garnet or other
darker shellac is not that easy.
>
> Thanks much for any advice or just smiles at this question.
>
> I like to build but generally am scared when it comes to finishing.  I do read
Teri Masaschi books (especially revised edition) “Foolproof wood finishing for
those who love to build and hate to finish—revised edition.”  I guess I am not
too hesitant in asking for advice considering the changes in what is available
in the way of stains.  Teri has had to revise her book in part because a couple
of key venders she sent readers to went out of business.  In my area stains
other than Minwax generally have to be ordered in which can make for some
somewhat expensive gambling when shipping is added in.
>
> Cal Meier
> Pineville, LA
> 71360
> Raining steadily.

Hi Cal

I've used a variety of shellac flakes from super-blonde to 'button' in 
DNA / Mohawk solvent & most recently, Everclear. I prefer the Everclear 
because the fumes aren't toxic, and if there's some left over, I can 
find another use. ;-) There is a good selection of flake product 
available on-line from Tools for Working Wood, Highland Woodworking and 
Lee Valley. I currently favour Lee Valley because their prices are good, 
and they have an excellent return policy, but I've also purchased from 
TFWW, where the prices seem higher.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/finishing/finishes/
76311-shellacs">https://www.leevalley.com/en-
ca/shop/tools/supplies/finishing/finishes/76311-shellacs

You can get a fair bit of colour in your sealing coat if you use one of 
the darker shellacs. Even the super-blonde has some colour to it. 
Highland offers 'platina' which they say is lighter than the 
super-blonde and more water-resistant, FWIW.

To me the great thing about mixing up your own shellac is that when 
you've got the tint you want  (amber, garnet etc ), you can do some 
testing on samples to determine the 'cut' to use.

You can also tint the the shellac with alcohol-soluble stains.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/LW-MCW.XX?searchterm=dye

I have always used the Lockwood stain, never the Moser's products 
available at WoodWorkers Supply. These dyes are very powerful, so start 
with a highly dilute mix. A few grains of the powder, 1/8 teaspoon or 
less at a time. I use a tiny spoon which came in a bottle of Stevia 
sweetener.

Testing is quick and easy because the solvent evaporates quickly. Once 
you've settled on the 'cut' and any toning dye you can still apply a gel 
stain if you wish, but you will have more toning options, and should be 
able to produce a finish with more clarity than if you relied completely 
on the gel for your colour.

FWIW

Don


-- 
“If you feel the need to give something back perhaps it means you took too much
in the first place." - Stefan Stern
269960 Kirk Eppler 2020‑02‑20 Re: Advice needed
Cal

I did a mission finish that started with a coat of shellac then multiple
layers of color on top of that.  Was quite controllable.  Gel stain was
involved.  Was much easier than a second project where I tried to build
color with Amber shellac.

I would top coat the exterior with a good poly.

I got my guidance from Jeff Hewitt at Homestead Finishing.

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 7:46 AM Cal Meier  wrote:

>   I am going to be applying a “finish” to from four to six doors (four
> panel solid pine).  I was planning on using one pound cut clear shellac as
> a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least achieve a light or
> moderate redish brown.  I planned to apply Shellac to fight the blotchiness
> I sometimes see in stained pine.
>

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA
269961 "Eric Coyle" <ecoyle@t...> 2020‑02‑20 Re: advice needed
Years ago I requested a quote for some solid doors and was floored by the
cost. In response to my question, the answer was that in some parts of the
world, a south facing door protected by a storm door can reach an incredibly
high temp with exterior moisture content, meanwhile the interior surface can
be basking in air-conditioned comfort with lower humidity. That obviously is
a recipe for warping and god lnows what else, so basically he explained
warranty claims drove the cost up so high. 

 

Up here in GWN, the inverse can occur..outside temp -30C, zero humidty,
while inside is comfoprtable 70F, with a humidifier running, or (as I;ve
experienced, the clothes dryer veented inside which raised humidt to 80%

 

That being said, most doors come with some kind of document that says  All
surfaces have to be finished or there's no warranty. Of all the painters
I've encountered over the years a a finishing/cabinet guy, the vast majority
are unaware of this requirement, or just blithely ignore it.

 

Trust your mentor pointed this requirement out.

 

Regards

Eric
269962 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2020‑02‑21 Re: advice needed
On 2020-02-20 3:21 p.m., Eric Coyle wrote:
> Years ago I requested a quote for some solid doors and was floored by the
> cost. In response to my question, the answer was that in some parts of the
> world, a south facing door protected by a storm door can reach an incredibly
> high temp with exterior moisture content, meanwhile the interior surface can
> be basking in air-conditioned comfort with lower humidity. That obviously is
> a recipe for warping and god lnows what else, so basically he explained
> warranty claims drove the cost up so high.
>
>   
>
> Up here in GWN, the inverse can occur..outside temp -30C, zero humidty,
> while inside is comfoprtable 70F, with a humidifier running, or (as I;ve
> experienced, the clothes dryer veented inside which raised humidt to 80%
>
>   
>
> That being said, most doors come with some kind of document that says  All
> surfaces have to be finished or there's no warranty. Of all the painters
> I've encountered over the years a a finishing/cabinet guy, the vast majority
> are unaware of this requirement, or just blithely ignore it.
>
>   
>
> Trust your mentor pointed this requirement out.
>
>   
>
> Regards
>
> Eric

Lest there be any ambiguity, that means all edges - top & bottom included.

Don

-- 
“If you feel the need to give something back perhaps it means you took too much
in the first place." - Stefan Stern
269963 "Y At Y.i" <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑02‑21 Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed
Cal tries to tell us he just lurks here...


> On 20 Feb 2020, at 15:46, Cal Meier  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I generally lurk somewhere under the porch normally asking or commenting one
on one to a true porch members.
> Today I need some advice.  In central Louisiana southern yellow pine, solid
wood doors, are much more common and much cheaper that Douglas Fir or Hemlock my
parent’s and grandparents had access to.  I am going to be applying a “finish”
to from four to six doors (four panel solid pine).  I was planning on using one
pound cut clear shellac as a sealer and them apply a jell stain to at least
achieve a light or moderate redish brown.  I planned to apply Shellac to fight
the blotchiness I sometimes see in stained pine.  Then I started thinking
(always dangerous),

I would begin by asking myself exactly what he finish has to do, but I presume
you have already done risk evaluations- potential damage, likelihood of repairs
needed, access to bright sunlight and all so let’s get to the meat of the
question.
Controlling colour in troublesome timber.  
I have found, over the years, that everything I need to colour (color, Paddy)
benefits from beginning with the blondest, wax free shellac I have.  Even so,
this will alter the colour slightly, and is pretty permanent, in that as it is
going on to bare wood, you can never get it truly out again.
That said, you can generally take off whatever you put on next, if it is not
spirit based.

After the seal coat, de nib, and stop to examine all the wood for areas of side
and end grain.  Areas around knots, even the pin knots, will have grain that
dives or surfaces (same thing as far as this is concerned).  These are areas to
be wary of.   Consider laying down another seal coat over bad areas.
Make up your first colour coating at half, or less strength, and apply
generally.  Your tricky areas may now be right, rest too pale.  If you’re using
shellac,  you hand apply over the areas to darken with another layer.  If using
a stain, water or other base, then again, apply with care on ‘just’ the areas
needing it.   Depending on the depth of colour needed, how many coats have been
successfully creeping up on it and so forth, you may want to seal what you’ve
done so far.  Typically, end grain areas arrive at the wanted colour, and you
avoid them as you. Complete the rest.   These are the ‘blotches’ you are trying
to and you avoid them by identifying them up front and localising them as you
proceed.
Many thin coats are your friend.  I like to use Van Dyke crystals for colour,
being water based, and eco friendly, the colour is easy to put on, and take off,
if the base is shellac sealed.
Finally, of course, you seal the whole thing with something overall - garnett
shellac if you want, but the point is that you have already tamed the blotch and
sealed your before you add the final colour, or depth of blonde finish, so the
last coats are trouble free.  A coat or two of garnet followed by several
blonde, french polished back to gloss and it will look like a batch of pianos
for doors,


Richard Wilson 
Yorkshireman Galoot In the Borders
269964 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑02‑21 Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed
Richard

> I have found, over the years, that everything I need to colour (color, Paddy)
benefits from beginning with the blondest, wax free shellac I have.  Even so,
this will alter the colour slightly, and is pretty permanent, in that as it is
going on to bare wood, you can never get it truly out again.


In building guitars, there are several steps where I lay down a couple of coats
of shellac to protect the wood - not my idea, common knowledge.  The shellac
will protect it against dirt and minor nicks, keep spruce grain from lifting and
tearing when you remove masking tape, and keep CA clue from getting into end
grain and discoloring the wood 1/8” to 1/4” in from the edge. At each step I can
completely remove the shellac by sanding a bit, and the final sanding gets the
wood very very clean.  I tend to be generous with the shellac and leave the
shellac I put on until that final sanding

Here is shellac on Redwood while I use CA glue to install the rosette (round
decoration thingy at the soundhole, Paddy)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/album-72157678301
955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/album-72157678301
955987/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/albu
m-72157678301955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49352329251/in/albu
m-72157678301955987/>

And here it is sanded for a few seconds - I couldn’t wait to see what the final
product looked like

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/album-72157678301
955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/album-72157678301
955987/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/albu
m-72157678301955987/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49512317191/in/albu
m-72157678301955987/>


Here is a chart on the wall at Martin Guitar telling their techs how far to go
with various woods - they have built 2-1/2 million guitars in 187 years and
their finishes are flawless

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195
662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195
662357/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu
m-72157713195662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu
m-72157713195662357/>

Most go to 220, some get 320 machine and some get 320 handsanding, mostly the
harder surfaced woods

Note at the top it says:

"Do not sand with 320 on any body that receives a hand-rubbed stain"

This is opposed to stain or toning that is applied in the sprayed finish.  And I
think that oversanding makes blotchiness more apparent.

There are amateur guitar builders who sand there bodies to 1000 grit before
finish

Ed Minch
269965 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2020‑02‑21 Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed
‘ Mornin’ Ed
I agree with all that you say.  I never have any issue with shellac.  I should
have been more exact in my comment.

 “Before you start, you will have considered the chemistry of all the products
you may be using, and you will be conscious that if you seal timber with shellac
- lets say you need to control end grain absorption of colour - then cleaning it
out will be almost impossible.
But then - why would you need to?  Shellac is happy with almost everything else
you may want to put on top of it.  I’ve never had to investigate the most modern
’stuff’ but if you were to want somehting like, I don’t know - a 2 part epoxy
coating - it might want to be on the timber rather than have an intermediate
layer.  The get out of jail card is to say  “test your intended process os an
offcut’  that way, if what I say is complete rubbish, and responsible for you
losing a thousand hours of work - it isn’t my fault! “

I do have some old product - as old as me or more, whose chemistry is a bit
uncerain to me.  Don’t mix with spirit (alcohol) or water,  therefore I’m always
wary.   Stay with shellac ground to allow water based colour colour control, and
go to top coats of shellac or oil varnish/shellac mixtures for the final finish.
Never fails..




Richard
Still in the Borders (bit of country separating Scotland from England, Paddy)
269967 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2020‑02‑21 Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed
SNIP


Here is a chart on the wall at Martin Guitar telling their techs how far to go
with various woods - they have built 2-1/2 million guitars in 187 years and
their finishes are flawless

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195
662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/album-72157713195
662357/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu
m-72157713195662357/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/48921804176/in/albu
m-72157713195662357/>

Most go to 220, some get 320 machine and some get 320 handsanding, mostly the
harder surfaced woods

Note at the top it says:

"Do not sand with 320 on any body that receives a hand-rubbed stain"

END SNIP

Ed:  You raise an interesting and touchy issue. On this and on the FWW forum I
frequented until a few years ago, people often exchange tips for getting very
highly polished surfaces on wood prior to applying the finish.  However, when
sitting at the feet of Peter Gedrys, an acknowledged master finisher and gilder,
I was repeatedly warned by him not to use high grits on wood unless there was
some overriding reason.  Such a reason might be that, ala James Krenov, one
wanted to leave the wood unfinished, with a silky tool finish.  For most
purposes, Peter taught that 220 was the highest grit needed.  Why?  Because it
smooths the wood, yet leaves enough tooth to form a mechanical bond with the
finish.  In fact, under normal circumstances, faced with wood polished or glazed
by tools, Peter sands at 220 to break the glaze and improve adherence.

Finer grits are used for wet sanding.  There are two objectives with wet
sanding: a smooth surface; and tooth to help the mechanical bond with  the next
coat.

Another point Peter made was that once a finish has some build to it, one is no
longer sanding the wood, so direction of grain is irrelevant.

Of course, many amateur furniture makers like the work of planning and
constructions and have no patience with finishing.  Therefore, they tend towards
oils that can be "ragged on."  Some very nice looks can be attained that way,
but there are limitations.  I would guess though, that if one planned to simply
wipe on oil, a polished wood face would not matter.

Cheers!

J
269969 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑02‑22 Re: [SPAM?] Advice needed
Joe

I agree with everything you said.  Although - even with an oil finish I don’t go
beyond 220 and have not had a problem.  I finish guitars with heardening oils,
natural or waterbased varnishes, and for a couple, shellac.  I have no spray
equipment wo everything is either brushed or padded, then I level and polish
through the grits.  Once you have a finish on, there is no grain direction and
that makes it easier.

Here is  some wet-dry sanding on a nice piece of oak - I use up to 2000 grit
sandpaper, then sanding screens up to about 8000 grit, then some car compound



Here is a nitrocelluose lacquer finish I had a local car painter put on for me
and I hand polished from his 1200 grit:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/album-72157646344
222304/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/album-72157646344
222304/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/albu
m-72157646344222304/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/16816946375/in/albu
m-72157646344222304/>

And here is an experiment with wipe-on poly.  I took the last coat up to about
2000 grit, then carefully wiped on a slightly thinned last coat.  Othere than a
coupl eof dust goobers, it looks quite good

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/album-72157688488
198220/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/album-72157688488
198220/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/albu
m-72157688488198220/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/45654628201/in/albu
m-72157688488198220/>

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